Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 40

Thread: Bring back Champcar

  1. #1

    Bring back Champcar

    That's right. forget about this weird and ugly delta thingy. No one likes it. Most of us absolutely hate the stinking thing. Tricycle racing league....yuk.

    But rather than just be a complainer, I'll add my solution... What do you do when you repeatedly fail and your next failure will kill you?

    You go back to the last thing that worked....because it worked!

    Bring back Champcars. Drag out the 1995 rulebook and update it, specifically the safety standards.

    Obviously things like engine and chassis exclusivitity will have to be dealt with and disposed of, but the 1995 Indycar gave us big grids, good racing and a healthy sport.

    Forget about arguing the split. that will just take us backwards. Look for success, and build forward. The 1995 champcar was an absolute success.

    Some things will have to be adjusted because technology has moved on. You can imagine how fast the 1995 champcar would have evolved to be if they had left the rules alone. Lord knows how much horsepower that motor would make. Imagine how fast the cars that lapped Fontana at 242 would be today if the rules had stayed the same.

    I figure you lay down a horsepower number and then go with the engine that the most manufacturers commit to make and support for five years. That way you have engines and you have manufacturer dollars coming in. Lord knows we can use some of that.

    The new tires alone would make the things blindingly fast, but let Firestone work that out. Enough has been learned about aerodynamics that the 1995 rules would allow way too much downforce, but let the chassis manufacturers to work out. Tell them you want to 230mph lap, put them all in the same room to tweek the rules and then build the things.

    If nothing else, reverse engineer a formula that the DP01 would have been built to and open it up for anyone who wants to build that kind of car. The DP01 was the natural evolution of the 1995 car that worked. The hard part is already doine, and there are 25 or so of those things already in existance.

    Test the DP01. See what it has on an oval. Tweek the rules to optimize that car, then let anyone who wants to build one to those rules go ahead and build it.

    And yes, I wouldn't be against legislation that made the cars swoopier looking....just nothing so manufactured and artificial lookiong as that delta thing.

    Heck, if you just gotta have a delta, make the car from the sidepods back to the tail delta shaped and fit that to a 1995 rules champcar, or who cares, a DP01. You'll get a good looking car, a swoopy car, a delta car, and something that combines the success of the past with the success we hope the future brings.

    The 1995 champcar evolved into what it was for a reason. That reason was because it worked. Everything since has failed. Go back to the last thing that worked and build forward.
    "Is that my *** that I smell burning?" ... Helmet Stogie from "Death spasms of the Mabuchi"

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    bradenton, fla
    Posts
    5,757
    Blog Entries
    4
    wise business in a hole should always pick the lowest cost out of that hole

    going with the least cost is all that will save this sport from further decline,

    revamping what worked best should be considered. and FWIW,, in 1995 they were called indycars, not champcar, docs suggestion probably would lead to solvency quicker than anything we ve read or saw this week

    paper
    I love the sport more than I hate the past,

  3. #3
    I agree with the spirit of this. But we don't have sponsors like we did in 1995. From what I understand most if not all of the owners are behind the DW. Not becuase it's pretty but because it, on paper at least, achieves the need of greatly slashing equipment costs while maintaining or exceeding current performance.

    Are there any other proposed designs that achieve those needs?

    I don't claim to know the answer so I ask, to ponder if nothing else, how much less would sponsers have to ante up to field a DW vs. the current or 1995 cars?

  4. #4
    I miss the '95 cars. God, those were some beautiful machines

  5. #5
    EdmontonRacing
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    897
    An udated late 90s reynard or an updated version of the last lola would be fine with me.
    MotorSportsGordon-Team1260 Edmonton

  6. #6
    Would you rather see this race.....



    Or this (admittedly a 1994 chassis)?



    Not even close. The delta is just a pig.

  7. #7
    Registered User Tadarida's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Posts
    565
    The fallacy behind this suggestion is the belief that CART, as constituted c. 1995 was a series with long-term survivability. As a competitive entity, it wasn't.

    In any case:

    The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

    -- Omar Khayyam

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadarida
    The fallacy behind this suggestion is the belief that CART c. 1995 was a series with long-term survivability. As a competitive entity, it wasn't.
    The fallacy of your argument is that we aren't talking about the cart series. We're talking about the cars. cart didn't fail because of their cars. They failed because they distanced themselves from the speedway.

    There is no reason to believe that had cart and the speedway found a way to work together we'de still be running these cars and still have a healthy sport, or at least as healthy as it could be in this crappy economic climate.

  9. #9
    Registered User WSIndyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Fort Mill, SC
    Posts
    807
    It's hard to embrace the future when you are too busy holding on to the past.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    bradenton, fla
    Posts
    5,757
    Blog Entries
    4
    the curious question may be are the owners behind the delta wing ,,or the leverage such a unity for such an abstract could provoke?

    is the delta about its addition or the removal of dallara?

    but docs suggestion is go with proven product. eliminate financial risk , and put things back in place where sponsors DID spend more because up until 1996 Indy Car was a giant inspite of things.

  11. #11
    "Champcar" was the dumbest moniker of all time.

    Notwithstanding- I liked the 94's. A lot. But I don't want to go back 16 years.

  12. #12
    Registered User Tadarida's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Posts
    565
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Austin
    The fallacy of your argument is that we aren't talking about the cart series.
    My reference to CART followed from the title of this thread.
    We're talking about the cars. cart didn't fail because of their cars. They failed because they distanced themselves from the speedway.
    Agreed, cars are secondary to other items leading to success or failure. But CART failed because it lost the oval sector to NASCAR and could not sell road racing to Americans to a level needed to fund the incereasing financial demands of their type of racing. Losing IMS simply made it happen faster.
    There is no reason to believe that had cart and the speedway found a way to work together we'de still be running these cars and still have a healthy sport, or at least as healthy as it could be in this crappy economic climate.
    IMHO, the ICS has the same problem I ascribed to CART above, with or without the Speedway. It may be worse now that the IRL has gone to a road racing ladder series.

    Now, being Saturday, I have to take my wife shopping.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    bradenton, fla
    Posts
    5,757
    Blog Entries
    4
    champcar,, coined in 1956 by USAC as the cars of the championship trail
    ya shooda been there .. it was very very good.

  14. #14
    Subversively normal skypigeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Olathe KS
    Posts
    28,529
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by WSIndyFan
    It's hard to embrace the future when you are too busy holding on to the past.
    Exactly.

    What made Indy special (and should make the series supporting it special) was the evolution of the breed.

  15. #15
    There is no substitute. Spike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Driving the point home
    Posts
    17,012
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadarida
    The fallacy behind this suggestion is the belief that CART, as constituted c. 1995 was a series with long-term survivability. As a competitive entity, it wasn't.
    As Doc pointed out, he wasn't specifically talking about CART the series (actually his title said "Champcar" - which wasn't CART), but rather the cars/specs, etc.

    That aside, your assertion that "CART as constituted c. 1995" was doomed to failure simply cannot be said with any certainty as there is no real evidence to support such a statement. Many, such as you, take the simplistic, naive approach and say something like "Look, CART went BK, so that proves it wasn't a viable (or as you put it, "survivable") entity.

    What happened to CART didn't happen in a vacuum. Take out the split and who knows what the future would have brought?

    What we do know is that pre-split CART, and the sport as a whole, was thriving. As has been pointed out over and over again, attendance and ratings were higher than anything seen by the IRL. Sponsorship and engine manufacture involvement was higher. The variety of chassis and engines was higher.

    In 1995, new ovals were on the horizon such as Fontana, Homestead, Gateway, Chicago and, in fact, CART added those tracks as soon as they came online. And, in 1995, oval tracks such as Phoenix and Michigan were still on the schedule and enjoyed huge support from fans.

    But if you want to talk about business models and survivability, lets look at what we know about the IRL.

    In the decade and a half the IRL has been around, it has yet to make a single dollar in profit. Not one.

    It has lasted lasted this long purely because of the hundreds of millions of dollars poured in from the Hulman-George bank account. That is not a survivable business model. Recent events have made it clear that the Hulman-George family have not been happy with the way things have gone and are not interested in maintaining the status quo.

    Time will tell if the recent changes will bring about the desired (and necessary) changes that will turn the IRL around and allow it, and the sport, to survive.
    "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Austin
    That's right. forget about this weird and ugly delta thingy. No one likes it. Most of us absolutely hate the stinking thing. Tricycle racing league....yuk.

    But rather than just be a complainer, I'll add my solution... What do you do when you repeatedly fail and your next failure will kill you?

    You go back to the last thing that worked....because it worked!

    Bring back Champcars. Drag out the 1995 rulebook and update it, specifically the safety standards.

    Obviously things like engine and chassis exclusivitity will have to be dealt with and disposed of, but the 1995 Indycar gave us big grids, good racing and a healthy sport.

    Forget about arguing the split. that will just take us backwards. Look for success, and build forward. The 1995 champcar was an absolute success.

    Some things will have to be adjusted because technology has moved on. You can imagine how fast the 1995 champcar would have evolved to be if they had left the rules alone. Lord knows how much horsepower that motor would make. Imagine how fast the cars that lapped Fontana at 242 would be today if the rules had stayed the same.

    I figure you lay down a horsepower number and then go with the engine that the most manufacturers commit to make and support for five years. That way you have engines and you have manufacturer dollars coming in. Lord knows we can use some of that.

    The new tires alone would make the things blindingly fast, but let Firestone work that out. Enough has been learned about aerodynamics that the 1995 rules would allow way too much downforce, but let the chassis manufacturers to work out. Tell them you want to 230mph lap, put them all in the same room to tweek the rules and then build the things.

    If nothing else, reverse engineer a formula that the DP01 would have been built to and open it up for anyone who wants to build that kind of car. The DP01 was the natural evolution of the 1995 car that worked. The hard part is already doine, and there are 25 or so of those things already in existance.

    Test the DP01. See what it has on an oval. Tweek the rules to optimize that car, then let anyone who wants to build one to those rules go ahead and build it.

    And yes, I wouldn't be against legislation that made the cars swoopier looking....just nothing so manufactured and artificial lookiong as that delta thing.

    Heck, if you just gotta have a delta, make the car from the sidepods back to the tail delta shaped and fit that to a 1995 rules champcar, or who cares, a DP01. You'll get a good looking car, a swoopy car, a delta car, and something that combines the success of the past with the success we hope the future brings.

    The 1995 champcar evolved into what it was for a reason. That reason was because it worked. Everything since has failed. Go back to the last thing that worked and build forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Austin
    The fallacy of your argument is that we aren't talking about the cart series. We're talking about the cars. cart didn't fail because of their cars. They failed because they distanced themselves from the speedway.

    There is no reason to believe that had cart and the speedway found a way to work together we'de still be running these cars and still have a healthy sport, or at least as healthy as it could be in this crappy economic climate.


    Right on every account! Very right.

    I do not mess with other folks messages but would like to bold some very good points Doc made in his messages.
    Dale Manus

  17. #17
    But Doc....

    How the he'll would any of us know what's racing on track ... ... What with us likin the boot and all
    Last edited by Ken; 02-14-2010 at 09:32 AM.

  18. #18
    Insider flyfishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Bat Country
    Posts
    1,077
    Blog Entries
    1
    sign me up.

    I never thought I would see myself not being an indycar fan in the future. The delta wing has done the impossible and has made me drunk with apathy and non chalance regarding the future of the sport.

    IRL, Please try to recreate CART(minus the inept ownership and lack of ovals) circa 1993-1999

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by skypigeon
    Exactly.

    What made Indy special (and should make the series supporting it special) was the evolution of the breed.
    The breed hasn't been allowed to evolve since 1997. It's not a big stretch to say that is probably part of why we find ourselves in the dumper today.

    The delta won't evolve the bgreed. It's will just take off in another direction... and a damm ugly one at that. Just weird...not even auto racing anymore. It will be more like a curious, contrived and manufactured Buck Rogers wanna be rocket racing series.

    The old rules made sense and it was essentailly the same formula from 1969 until 1995. Speaking of evolving, compare Maro's Hawk to Jacques' Reynard. Bringing back to old formula will allow that kind of evolution again. It will just have to be tweeked to contain costs and speeds, and to make the new cars as safe as current technology will allow.

    Keeping the old formula as long as we did wasn't living in the past. That assertation is absolutely absurd. Going from 170mph to 242 mph was due to progress, development and evolution. The split cut that short. The old Indycar formula still had a lot of years life in it. The fact it survived as long as it did without Indianapolis is a good testiment to that.

  20. #20
    Registered User Grinder-Tank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brazil In
    Posts
    12,689
    What Doc is proposing sounds a bit like the American IndyCar Series. If anyone hear remembers that outfit you'll understand.

    For those who don't, it was a series of used IndyCars fixed up like new and back on the track. Gather up all of the Dallaras, DP101s, Panoz and even some of the Lolas and hit the track. That's a bit drastic but the cost will be LOW....Then move forward from there with new cars as time allows.

    I say this because I don't want that ONE DW car shoved down my throat... I can't believe I just said that... Now I know I really don't want it. But seriously, as a team owner behind this Delta Wing, you have to realize that a very large number of fans simply don't like it. The concept of different builders making the car with a variance of appearance I do like, but not this vehicle you're showing us.

    Because weather you accept it or not, fans can become fans of different types of cars and that is a big part of what made racing great in IndyCar and NASCAR. But that has been taken away from us and we want it back, and you're on the right track. But you're going to have to make a car that captures our imagination, not the bile in our stomachs!!
    Get your head out of your past!!!

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Spike
    As Doc pointed out, .....
    Good lord! Spike and I agree on something. We are truely doomed after all.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinder-Tank
    What Doc is proposing sounds a bit like the American IndyCar Series. If anyone hear remembers that outfit you'll understand.

    For those who don't, it was a series of used IndyCars fixed up like new and back on the track. Gather up all of the Dallaras, DP101s, Panoz and even some of the Lolas and hit the track. That's a bit drastic but the cost will be LOW....Then move forward from there with new cars as time allows.
    I wasn't going to take it that far, but your suggestion would work until money is a little easier to come by.

    I was merely suggesting we adoipt the old formula, tweek it, and make those the new cars. Running the old cars as a stop gap measure to buy us a couple of more years wouldn't be so bad, but it is too late to implement it for this year.

  23. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    chicago
    Posts
    1,423
    Welcome to 7thgear, circa 1998 or so.
    What Happened?
    Who's got next?

  24. #24
    Something not yet touched upon is all of us loved those sleek, wickedly fast 1995 cars. Were we return to something similar, we would win back all the old cart fans and we would win new fans because of the look and the speed.

    The vision lost. Let it go and let's pick up where we left off with what was working.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    bradenton, fla
    Posts
    5,757
    Blog Entries
    4
    how does a suggestion saying bring something back thet worked end up in farewell? so thats farewell to what worked?

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Austin
    Bring back Champcars......If nothing else, reverse engineer a formula that the DP01 would have been built to and open it up for anyone who wants to build that kind of car. The DP01 was the natural evolution of the 1995 car that worked. The hard part is already doine, and there are 25 or so of those things already in existance.
    You know things have hit rock bottom when Doc suggests using the DP01.

    I'm glad I put my tighty whities on backwards today, because I once said that the Day Doc did that would be the day Monkeys flew out of my butt.

  27. #27
    There is no substitute. Spike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Driving the point home
    Posts
    17,012
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinder-Tank
    What Doc is proposing sounds a bit like the American IndyCar Series. If anyone hear remembers that outfit you'll understand.

    For those who don't, it was a series of used IndyCars fixed up like new and back on the track.
    The AIS was a hobbyist series. The cars were far from being "fixed up like new." Bill Tempero and his handful of buddies were just guys playing with cars. Nothing about it rose anywhere near the level of a professional series.

  28. #28
    There is no substitute. Spike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Driving the point home
    Posts
    17,012
    Quote Originally Posted by flyfishin
    IRL, Please try to recreate CART(minus the inept ownership and lack of ovals) circa 1993-1999
    You might want to go back and take a look at all the ovals CART added in that timeframe. Tracks like Fontana, Homestead, Gateway, Chicago, Lautzigring, Motegi and others. Not to mention the ovals CART was already running on (and which the IRL later abandoned or got the boot from).

    Look it up.

  29. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,343
    Blog Entries
    1
    Well if the DP01 was brought back the IRL would be returning to its roots. I'm all for the 96' IRL rulebook with updated saftey standards.

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    bradenton, fla
    Posts
    5,757
    Blog Entries
    4
    perhaps this should have been called bring back IndyCar,, since the split the identity was lost, seeing the late 50s thru 1995 there was no doubt what Indy Car was to anyone, now a search for the identity lost?

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •