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Thread: This year, despite it all, we do need to remind fans that we're faster

  1. #181
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Chin View Post
    The public doesn't know about the Indy 500? Since when?
    Since 95% of them don't watch it?

    Since 20 or so Cup events out-rate it?

    People know the 500 that don't know there's a series that goes with it.

    What's wrong with this picture: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0105750AA7mXUU
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  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Since 95% of them don't watch it?

    Since 20 or so Cup events out-rate it?

    People know the 500 that don't know there's a series that goes with it.

    What's wrong with this picture: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0105750AA7mXUU
    People know about the Indy 500. To suggest otherwise is nonsensical. And people certainly know there is a series connected to it. Again, denying this makes no sense. The problem, as you know, is that the sporting public has overwhelmingly rejected the "product". It's not that "they" don't know. They do know. They just don't care.

  3. #183
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Look at this one:

    http://darrellloper.wordpress.com/20...car-or-nascar/

    Yea, Indy is faster, and the cars are more ‘exotic’ but it’s less of a sport really, it’s so technology based, it’s much less about the driver and much more about the car. Takes the athleticism out of it. I’m not saying they aren’t talented, they are, just NASCAR drivers have a different level of it. (Hence, a lot of NASCAR driver can do Indy, and it doesn’t work as well the other way around)
    Takes the athleticism out of it?? What does? The lack of power steering in an IndyCar? The reduced reaction times, margins for error, increased G forces??

    While the comments on this are ridiculous, I wonder how accurately this depicts the speed differences?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsCha5Wli7s

    Then there's this: http://www.theonion.com/articles/uho...y-indyc,16917/



    This is just sad, all around: http://www.rc-racingcars.com/can-you...-than-indycar/
    Last edited by Turn13; 02-19-2012 at 06:58 PM.

  4. #184
    NASCAR Bud Shootout race average = 124mph
    Indycar idle = 0mph

    Who raced at faster speeds this weekend? (C'mon Turn13, you can answer this.)

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Chin View Post
    The problem, as you know, is that the sporting public has overwhelmingly rejected the "product". It's not that "they" don't know. They do know. They just don't care.
    Sadly, you are correct.
    Prime Minister of Gackland

  6. #186
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenelopePitstop View Post
    NASCAR Bud Shootout race average = 124mph
    Indycar idle = 0mph

    Who raced at faster speeds this weekend? (C'mon Turn13, you can answer this.)
    NASCAR raced slower cars while IndyCar's faster cars didn't race. Duh. You could just post all the averages for the entire season from last year right now and be done, but you still wouldn't be making a salient point

  7. #187
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    Sadly, you are correct.
    Yet you two experts would disagree wildly about how to "fix" it. Your only thing in common is you both hate what has spurned you

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Yet you two experts would disagree wildly about how to "fix" it. Your only thing in common is you both hate what has spurned you
    Hate it? Hardly. That's simply more nonsensical commentary. More like care about it enough to not deny the obvious problems and challenges that confront the sport.

    Sadly, far too many are seemingly afraid of candor, apparently believing that one can simply wish things to be better. I understand the sentiment even as that attitude does far more hard than good.

  9. #189
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Chin View Post
    Hate it? Hardly. That's simply more nonsensical commentary. More like care about it enough to not deny the obvious problems and challenges that confront the sport.
    I'd be very interested to hear the details - in another thread, of course.

    Sadly, far too many are seemingly afraid of candor, apparently believing that one can simply wish things to be better. I understand the sentiment even as that attitude does far more hard than good.
    No fear here. Looking forward to your analysis and proposals in that new thread

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    NASCAR raced slower cars while IndyCar's faster cars didn't race. Duh.
    which makes NASCAR the faster of the two this past weekend. Thank you for (almost) being so honest. NASCAR's exhibiton race was televised and the average speed of the race was over 124mph. That is an official stat that both NASCAR and Indycar use in their official race summaries.

    You could just post all the averages for the entire season from last year right now and be done, but you still wouldn't be making a salient point
    Once again you avoid the actual premise, which is spelled out in the title of this thread. This year...



    The product of each racing series is the racing. Each series puts on a series of races for the fans. The racing is what the fans come to see. When NASCAR holds a race, their fans see faster racing than Indycar fans nearly every time. On occasion the Indycar racing is done at higher speeds, but over the course of the season, NASCAR posts the higher "race average speed" statistic most often.

    The official statistics tell the story. The majority of Indycar races are run at slower speeds than NASCAR Cup races. I'll simply post the official race average speeds throughout the season.

  11. #191
    Insider Jakester's Avatar
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    Please also post the average race speeds for NHRA Top Fuel.
    new sig pending

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakester View Post
    Please also post the average race speeds for NHRA Top Fuel.
    When they make it an official statistic I'll post it. AFIK, it isn't. A 3.8 second run on a 1000 foot course would yield an average speed of just under 180mph (using my limited math skills).

    Compare that to the fastest Indy 500 on record - 185.981mph by Arie Luyendyk in 1990!

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    I'd be very interested to hear the details - in another thread, of course.



    No fear here. Looking forward to your analysis and proposals in that new thread
    Details? Analysis? Proposals? Really?

    You've been unwilling to accept a very straight forward and proven premise that demonstrates one of the true flaws of the sport (fast cars that nonetheless go slower most weekends than the much more popular series that dominates the sport). If you're going to deny the obvious, why would details, proposals and analysis matter?

  14. #194
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Chin View Post
    You've been unwilling to accept a very straight forward and proven premise ...
    Oh, baloney, I've even re-stated that premise. I just don't think it's very impressive

    What is impressive is that IndyCars are faster on every track than Cup cars. That's the premise we're talking about here. No cars lap oval tracks faster. An IndyCar would lap a Cup car every four or five laps, most places they've both run.

    But keep obfuscating it. I appreciate it It gives me the opportunity to point it out again.

  15. #195
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Chin View Post
    Details? Analysis? Proposals? Really?
    Yeah - you were just alluding to how concerned and studied up you were on the series' challenges. Let's hear about that sometime. You want me to believe the one post here swearing your allegiance and to ignore the 858 other posts that belie your motives

    Gack and PP are at least oval racing fans. The only reason you're piling on here is because you think this is "bad" for the series

  16. #196
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    What is impressive is that IndyCars are faster on every track than Cup cars. That's the premise we're talking about here.
    I agree that IndyCars are capable of faster lap times (higher average speed) than a NASCAR Sprint Cup car on all closed circuits that the two series race on. I would say it's a safe bet that IndyCars are capable of faster lap times on any closed circuit, but if both types of cars have not run on a track, that is a 'scientific guess' and is not proven by experiment.

    I will also make an educated guess that the above makes not a whit of difference in the relative popularity of the two series.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenelopePitstop View Post
    Once again you avoid the actual premise, which is spelled out in the title of this thread. This year...
    Oh, Lord

    Okay - make up any numbers you want for this year I won't argue that oval tracks don't provide quicker laps than road or street courses, as long as you acknowledge that an IndyCar is faster than a Cup car on any track.

    NASCAR = faster tracks (on average), IndyCar = faster cars, fastest laps and faster than Cup on any track.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Oh, baloney, I've even re-stated that premise. I just don't think it's very impressive

    What is impressive is that IndyCars are faster on every track than Cup cars. That's the premise we're talking about here. No cars lap oval tracks faster. An IndyCar would lap a Cup car every four or five laps, most places they've both run.

    But keep obfuscating it. I appreciate it It gives me the opportunity to point it out again.
    You restated it because you're in denial about the issues that plague the series. It's the only way you can keep things wishful.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Yeah - you were just alluding to how concerned and studied up you were on the series' challenges. Let's hear about that sometime. You want me to believe the one post here swearing your allegiance and to ignore the 858 other posts that belie your motives

    Gack and PP are at least oval racing fans. The only reason you're piling on here is because you think this is "bad" for the series
    If you can't make a successful and cogent argument, it's always easier to talk about "hate" and accuse someone of not being a "real fan". That's part of being in denial. But at least you think you care, which is likely all that matters.

  20. #200
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakester
    I would say it's a safe bet that IndyCars are capable of faster lap times on any closed circuit, but if both types of cars have not run on a track, that is a 'scientific guess' and is not proven by experiment.
    Sure, I'll buy that. I have yet to jump out my third floor office window yet, so I guess I can't be sure, but science tells me I'm likely to be subject to the laws of gravity if I do . Similarly, hoop98 assures me that the physics to calculate IndyCar's speed at, say, Daytona, are not very exotic or unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakester View Post
    I will also make an educated guess that the above makes not a whit of difference in the relative popularity of the two series.
    Not yet, maybe But NASCAR does a lot of marketing and referencing related to speed. If theirs is good, why isn't IndyCar's?

    I can tell you from personal experience at many races where both run, the extra speed of IndyCar is a big plus for my appreciation. Maybe it will be for others as well. How would it be negative?

  21. #201
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Chin View Post
    If you can't make a successful and cogent argument, it's always easier to talk about "hate" and accuse someone of not being a "real fan". That's part of being in denial. But at least you think you care, which is likely all that matters.
    Okay

  22. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Okay - make up any numbers you want for this year
    So far, you are the one who made up numbers, not me.

    I won't argue that oval tracks don't provide quicker laps than road or street courses, as long as you acknowledge that an IndyCar is faster than a Cup car on any track.
    I acknowleged that point in post #50.
    I acknowleged that point in post #54.
    I acknowleged that point in post #91.
    I acknowleged that point in post #95.
    I acknowleged that point in post #102.
    I acknowleged that point in post #109.
    I acknowleged that point in post #111.
    I acknowleged that point in post #121.
    I acknowleged that point in post #150.
    I acknowleged that point in post #152.
    I acknowleged that point in post #160.

    I guess you have a hard time understanding when someone agrees with your point.


    NASCAR = faster
    on race day. With Indycar's addition of Milwaukee, I'd guess that NASCAR will produce the faster racing on all but seven weekends this season.

  23. #203
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    I guess you have a funny way of agreeing with me

    IndyCars are faster - I know it, you know it, and that's all that matters.

    Just leave the phony averaging-in-days-when-cars-don't-run-and-trying-to-obscure-that-speed-varies-with-the-type-of-track off your next response agreeing with me.

    We get that. It's not the point

  24. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    I guess you have a funny way of agreeing with me
    The only thing funny about that is that it took you until post #203 to comprehend those "obscure" references I was making.

    From post #50 "Yes, head to head Indycars are faster."
    From post #54 "Head to head, as I've already stated, Indycars are faster."
    From post #91 "Indycars that are capable of turning laps in the 215 range"
    From post #94 "the (Indy)cars are faster by nature"
    From post #102 "Indycars can go faster"
    From post #109 "In a direct comparison on the same track, I would expect the Indycar to be faster."
    From post #111 "On paper the Indycar is faster."
    From post #121 "Indycars are faster in a direct comparison."
    From post #150 "We agree that Indycars are capable of going faster on the same track."
    From post #152 "I've been saying that the whole time."
    From post #160 "I agree with every point you make about relative speed differences between both series."

    That is ten times I completely agreed that in a direct comparison Indycars are faster.

    But on race day those cars do not compete head to head on the track. They compete head to head on the TV screens across America and those who tune in to watch will most often see NASCAR running at higher speeds.

    No wonder you feel compelled to remind them that Indycar is faster - the racing sure doesn't do that.

    Just leave the phony averaging-in-days-when-cars-don't-run-and-trying-to-obscure-that-speed-varies-with-the-type-of-track off your next response agreeing with me.
    You want to call official statistics phony? There is nothing obscure about them, either. They appear in the official race box scores.

    Indycars will officially run races faster than NASCAR a grand total of 7 weekends this season. NASCAR will best Indycar 10 times this season. NASCAR will also run 19 races on weekends that Indycar is idle. Lots of fast racing for the uninformed public to watch.

  25. #205
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    In your first post in this thread you said "...Indycars are either idle or slower." IndyCars are NOT slower, though as I have said many times they race on slower tracks. You keep trying to obfuscate the truth. In the next post you said, "I prefer Indycar racing, but don't try to tell me they race at higher speeds. They don't. "

    Yes they do. They race at much higher speeds, art every track they have in common with Cup cars.

    Then you said, "NASCAR actually does go faster and far more often." But not on the same track - obfuscation again. And again, I never denied NASCAR ran more ovals, and that ovals aren't faster. That doesn't make their cars faster. They're slower.

    Your obfuscation is classic - that's exactly what I would rail against - the ignorance and denial.

    Then you said "Facts don't bother me." (post #52) Why would they? You don't even notice them what they are presented

    Which is why I responded,
    "on average"?

    Why say that BUT to twist the facts?

    What series will have the faster laps at Indy this year?

    Q.E.D.

    No twisting required.
    So don't tell me I have ignored or denied any of your points. I'm the one shedding a light here. I'm the one taking the facts into account, straight up - no phony averaging in days when cars don't race, or failing to account for the physics of the track.

    You want to pretend that the excitement of speed isn't relative to the landscape it's exhibited on. Even NASCAR drivers, in their hearts, know that's stupid. From the link that started this thread: "Junior said, 'I like going faster than we’ve been going. The cars are really, really slow by themselves the last couple of years at Daytona and Talladega. Qualifying in the mid-180 range is just way too slow.' "

    Quote Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop
    Indycars will officially run races faster than NASCAR a grand total of 7 weekends this season. ... NASCAR will also run 19 races on weekends that Indycar is idle. Lots of fast racing for the uninformed public to watch.
    I guess that's why we need to remind people that IndyCars actually are faster

    ps - since you like weekly averages - IndyCar = 210+ this week. I do believe that's faster than the Cuppers
    Last edited by Turn13; 02-20-2012 at 10:25 PM.

  26. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    ps - since you like weekly averages - IndyCar = 210+ this week. I do believe that's faster than the Cuppers
    Practice all you want at those speeds. On race day in America's living rooms NASCAR will rule.

    Every NASCAR race from now until the Indy 500 will feature the faster racing. That's three months of slower racing for Indycars.

  27. #207
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    I guess that's why we need to remind people that IndyCars actually are faster

  28. #208
    Run your fastest on race day. We'll let the official results from both series determine who is faster.

  29. #209
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    And at the end of the year, IndyCar will probably have run the fastest.

    Maybe by the end of the first oval race, even

  30. #210
    Gatorade Duel #2 Average Speed 194.175MPH

    http://www.jayski.com/stats/2012/pdf...l-results2.pdf

    What is the fastest race in Indycar history? Is it faster than this?

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