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Thread: Barrichello = Bad Business

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    American fans like American stories best. How's your NASCAR history--did you know that NASCAR's recent 5-time champion grew up in a trailer park? That's an American story.
    First of all, where is this 320 cars sold in the UK number from and (if accurate) how many did Ferrari sell in the UK last year? These are Luxury Sports Cars. Don't see many Ferrari's driving around here but I know the company does pretty well with them.

    Second, the "American fan, American story" line is so tired it makes me sick. I was born and raised in the Midwest. I have a lot of friends (with the same background) that are Indycar fans. NOBODY CARES WHERE THESE PEOPLE ARE FROM! I like Sato, and was a huge Greg Moore fan. De Ferran was a favorite of mine from my early days of race attendance. Get off this line! It's ignorant and tired. If you want a little proof as to how the rest of civilized society views these matters you can look at the guy who kicked the winning field goal in this years Super Bowl. He is from Greenock, Scotland...and nobody cares.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    This is simply false.

    Check your history books and tell us how "international" the Indy 500 was from the end of WWII to the mid 1970's.

    It was an American racing event. With a FEW TOP SHELF foreign drivers competing, from time-to-time.

    This "Indy has always been a international event" line is pure BS and only repeated by those that are simply ignorant to the history of the event.
    Wiki: Drivers of nine separate non-American nationalities have won the Indianapolis 500-Mile Race 25 times out of 95 races, 26.32%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    This is simply false.

    Check your history books and tell us how "international" the Indy 500 was from the end of WWII to the mid 1970's.
    The end of the war was almost 70 years ago. The mid 70's are now approaching 40 years ago. We are talking generations that have gone by since the 500 was as American as you seem to think it should be. It means zero anymore.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribald Tires View Post
    I can't believe I read this whole thread and it took me to post 39 to see Nigel Mansell mentioned.
    You need to read faster.

    Im giving you half credit too for not keeping up with the rest of the class

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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2 View Post
    The end of the war was almost 70 years ago. The mid 70's are now approaching 40 years ago. We are talking generations that have gone by since the 500 was as American as you seem to think it should be. It means zero anymore.
    Just responding to the ignorant claims that the Indy 500 "has always been a international event".

    Its simply not true. It just gets repeated here, by some fans who think Indy Car Racing has always been a playground for foreign drivers and that 'nothing has really changed' in that regard.

    For 60 years, this sport was dominated by American-born drivers. The Indy 500, year-in and year-out through the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's was almost exclusively filled with American drivers. And the few foreign-born drivers that did show, were the Jimmy Clark's and David Hobbs's and Mario Andretti's of the world. THE TOP SHELF guys.

    Its only been in the past 25 years or so (the F1-ization of the sport), that the sport has gone away from its true roots. Which has seen less and less American driver participation (the fewest Americans in the history of the event have been 1995, 2009, 2010 and 2011; and 2012 is sure to break the all-time record for the 4th consecutive year).

    Those aren't opinions or ignorant claims. Them's the facts.

    Yes, its been "a generation" now since the Indy 500 was an American race. Probably the same generation we've lost as fans as Indy Car Racing continues to spin its wheels with irrelevence in this country.
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    So, let me get this straight. At a time when the IICS is struggling for positive notoriety and any sort of good press exposure, we should turn away a consumate professional driver, a race winner at the highest reaches of international motorsport, a PR guy's dream, and a paid driver for 2 of the most revered F-1 teams (Ferrari and Williams)?

  7. #67
    I'm curious if all the wailing and gnashing of teeth by certain posters in this thread would go away if say Mark Martin (The Mark Martin when he 1st retired 6-7 years ago, not the current 53 y.o version) would have announced he was coming over.

    They are fairly comparable career wise. Never won the big race (Daytona and Monaco) 2 Second place finishes in the championships for Rubens compared to 4 for Martin and solid amount of victories for both (Martin has double but he drove a ton more races). It would be fairly big deal in the states but register a blip on the sports radar outside of it.

    I can't think of another American driver other than Martin to compare him to.
    I'd rather have 10% of the world interested in the ICS than 50% of US that NASCAR currently has

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Disciple View Post
    I like Rubens Barrichello a lot. He is a personable driver who managed to last 19 years in F-1. That is an incredible feat. That said, he will not move the needle much with respect to popularity in the USA. Much of the hordes who have followed his career in F-1 are good fans, but do we need all of them? Many of the enthusiasts of that discipline have succeeded in convincing Indy Car leadership that ovals, especially 1.5 milers, are bad and have gotten the majority of them eliminated from the schedule. Bernard has even become brainwashed enough to declare them unpopular despite the fact that NASCAR does really well with nothing but over 30 times a season.

    As long as we are hurtling headlong toward 1993 again we might as well go for young hotshots with potential. I really like Esteban Guerrieri. He has the passion behind the wheel of an EJ Viso but a lot less of the recklessness. Even though he is Argentinian and not American, we don't have any drivers from there right now. So if Vasser and crew are going for road racers, why not get a good young one? Plus, Esteban did well in Lights. He deserves a shot. From a diversity standpoint I could get behind him.

    -The Youth Movement Disciple of INDYCAR
    Here is the point that maybe you haven't considered. Rubens doesn't necessarily equal grabbing American fans who haven't watched Indycar or any racing make them go, "ok now I'm going to watch Indy." (it may do this to a few people who left because of the split or who love F1 and view indycar as inferior and now open a few eyes). However this like I said probably won't just drive direct eyeballs or make average Americans watch. However, this will get people in motorpsorts attention, it will get the media (which has a pack mentality) especially the international media paying more attention. I will almost guarantee that as the European and South American media give Indy increased attention it will drive the American sports media to pay bait more attention. Also this could feasibly draw more sponsorship dollars from companies seeing the series grabbing a big name. Either way, it's a healthy bit of news for the series, will garner from free publicity via the press, and it might add some eyeballs. This is kind of like David Beckham to LA Galaxy, it didn't make MLS mainstream and massive over night. However, it's drawn dollars and attention to a struggling sports series and added some free press and a bit of attention. So, in closing Rubens coming probably won't be a blockbuster, but it's sowing seeds for growth, and it will not hurt.

    If it drives a few ethnocentric American fans away, well, those I would say are the fans Indycar can afford to lose to other series. Especially since, they are trying to position themselves with sponsors as touching a higher class, more affluent, educated audience than other American racing series, which is partly why a preppy clothing line from the 80's is using Indy as part of their comeback campaign to the mainstream.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    Just responding to the ignorant claims that the Indy 500 "has always been a international event".

    Its simply not true. It just gets repeated here, by some fans who think Indy Car Racing has always been a playground for foreign drivers and that 'nothing has really changed' in that regard.

    For 60 years, this sport was dominated by American-born drivers. The Indy 500, year-in and year-out through the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's was almost exclusively filled with American drivers. And the few foreign-born drivers that did show, were the Jimmy Clark's and David Hobbs's and Mario Andretti's of the world. THE TOP SHELF guys.

    Its only been in the past 25 years or so (the F1-ization of the sport), that the sport has gone away from its true roots. Which has seen less and less American driver participation (the fewest Americans in the history of the event have been 1995, 2009, 2010 and 2011; and 2012 is sure to break the all-time record for the 4th consecutive year).

    Those aren't opinions or ignorant claims. Them's the facts.

    Yes, its been "a generation" now since the Indy 500 was an American race. Probably the same generation we've lost as fans as Indy Car Racing continues to spin its wheels with irrelevence in this country.
    At different times it has been of varying levels of "international.". However, you should also admit how American the immigrants were in the 1920's. It's not like all of the teams, car makers, and drivers were guys with deep American roots who grew up in a small town or farm and then moved to the big city to race. Lots were very foreign in manner and such. Just like Hollywood was at the time, was very American but very much filled with very recent immigrants who were recently naturalized citizens or 1st generation born Americans who clung closely to their original culture.

    Also, it's time to end this debate. With the technological growth of the last 100 years, and advancement in mass transportation. We live in an increasingly global world. I'm not sure why this is bad. It's not. Btw, more foreigners would be in NASCAR if they wanted, but I get the feeling that the reason that doesn't happen is not because NASCAR would stop teams from taking a fat check (they aren't trying to keep the bloodlines pure for the southerners as much as some may think), as much as its because foreign drivers find the NASCAR discipline uninteresting and beneath them. And they grew up karting and road racing. Not throwing the family car around a circle for 17 hours because of 95 yellow flags and a "rubbing is racing philosophy."

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribald Tires View Post
    First of all, where is this 320 cars sold in the UK number from and (if accurate) how many did Ferrari sell in the UK last year? These are Luxury Sports Cars. Don't see many Ferrari's driving around here but I know the company does pretty well with them.

    Second, the "American fan, American story" line is so tired it makes me sick. I was born and raised in the Midwest. I have a lot of friends (with the same background) that are Indycar fans. NOBODY CARES WHERE THESE PEOPLE ARE FROM! I like Sato, and was a huge Greg Moore fan. De Ferran was a favorite of mine from my early days of race attendance. Get off this line! It's ignorant and tired. If you want a little proof as to how the rest of civilized society views these matters you can look at the guy who kicked the winning field goal in this years Super Bowl. He is from Greenock, Scotland...and nobody cares.
    Thank You.

    I guess they would rather have semi-competent pay drivers

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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    So, let me get this straight. At a time when the IICS is struggling for positive notoriety and any sort of good press exposure, we should turn away a consumate professional driver, a race winner at the highest reaches of international motorsport, a PR guy's dream, and a paid driver for 2 of the most revered F-1 teams (Ferrari and Williams)?
    That's what he ONCE was, although of course NEVER a champion.

    Today he's a driver fading from the scene and just trying to hold on ... kind of like the racing series he's joining.

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    'Nardo nails it
    http://www.rpm2night.com/threads/f1-...-indycar.6658/

    "It's an exciting day for the IZOD IndyCar Series and a positive step to start 2012," Bernard said. "We've said all along that one of the most important factors that will make the IZOD IndyCar Series successful is having the best drivers in the world, and there's not a person in the world who knows racing that wouldn't tell you that Rubens Barrichello is one of the greatest drivers of all time. I think it's been interesting to hear the response of the other drivers. It's been 'This is great for us because it will show how good all of our drivers are.'

    "That, to me, is important because the best in the IZOD IndyCar Series are saying 'Bring him on. We want this guy.' That will create great competition and expands our international platform. There will be millions of fans that will want to see what Barrichello can do. The other factor, which we saw last weekend at Infineon Raceway as he talked with fans attending the Chevy test, is that he's such a great guy. That will resonate with our fans."

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    That's what he ONCE was, although of course NEVER a champion.

    Today he's a driver fading from the scene and just trying to hold on ... kind of like the racing series he's joining.
    He was lost his current ride due to a ride buyer bringing more cash and the Williams he's been driving has been awful the last 2 years. Akin to a Conquest or Coyne ride compared to the Penske's or Ganassi's. This is a big deal a major positive for the series. And if you saw the announcements today he's also doing a full season. Ovals included.

    I could understand some of the negatives the glass half empty crowed brought up about China (I don't like it either the gap in the schedule it creates) But RB coming to us is not remotely a bad thing. Not even close. I also hope even if we only get RB to stick around for a few years his high dollar sponsor will see the positives in the series and choose to stick around when he leaves.
    Last edited by TimmyZ1; 03-01-2012 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Better flow

  14. #74
    Just a race fan Vasserfan's Avatar
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    I guess after years at TF, that I should not be suprised when the doom and gloomers try to turn this news into bad news.
    After years of fighting and a split, guess what, we are all IndyCar

    October will always be a sad racing month for me. RIP Greg and Dan. You both were great and we miss you.

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    Pretty stupid isn't it Vasserfan. You need drivers of a knoen quality to compare new drivers to. In the past we had drivers come from overseas like Clark, Hill, Stewart, Rindt, Hulme ....etc and the rest of the world saw that Americans like Foyt, Andretti, Jones, the Unsers....etc .could compete with the best. Americans saw we could compete on a world stage.

    Indy car has been through the ringer. Some people doubt the quality of driver and the quality of the racing. With Rubins we get a measuring stick. We also get world wide viewership and possibly an influx of overseas money. Yet some here just want to complain. Pretty stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    That's what he ONCE was, although of course NEVER a champion.

    Today he's a driver fading from the scene and just trying to hold on ... kind of like the racing series he's joining.
    Believe what you want...

  17. #77
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    I think it's great for the ICS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoparsRule View Post
    I think it's great for the ICS.
    This is one of those rare instances where we actually agree.

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    Kanaan is up about 200,000 twitter followers since this whole Rubens thing started and is rapidly catching up to Danica's #s, by the way.

    Mark Johnson from KV Racing said on Trackside that they had 600 million media impressions on TV in Brazil just from the Sebring & Sonoma tests.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disciple View Post
    I like Rubens Barrichello a lot. He is a personable driver who managed to last 19 years in F-1. That is an incredible feat. That said, he will not move the needle much with respect to popularity in the USA. Much of the hordes who have followed his career in F-1 are good fans, but do we need all of them? Many of the enthusiasts of that discipline have succeeded in convincing Indy Car leadership that ovals, especially 1.5 milers, are bad and have gotten the majority of them eliminated from the schedule. Bernard has even become brainwashed enough to declare them unpopular despite the fact that NASCAR does really well with nothing but over 30 times a season.



    -The Youth Movement Disciple of INDYCAR
    Bernard is brainwashed to think ovals are unpopular, or with the current attendance has Bernard made a business decision that right now (sadly) ovals are unsustainable?
    "My favorite time of the day at the Speedway during the month of May was just after dusk, after the track had closed down for day, I used to go out and sit on the pit wall and just listen and think"~ Dick Ralstin

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by beej View Post
    Bernard is brainwashed to think ovals are unpopular, or with the current attendance has Bernard made a business decision that right now (sadly) ovals are unsustainable?
    Has very little to do with "attendance". Has a lot to do with sanctioning fees, which many REAL race tracks (read ovals and road courses) have a hard time justifying considering the ROI the ICS provides.

    Facts are, many of these street races aren't that well attended either. 20,000 at St. Pete is the same as 20,000 at Vegas.

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    Has very little to do with "attendance". Has a lot to do with sanctioning fees, which many REAL race tracks (read ovals and road courses) have a hard time justifying considering the ROI the ICS provides.

    Facts are, many of these street races aren't that well attended either. 20,000 at St. Pete is the same as 20,000 at Vegas.
    You're none too quick are you? How can you separate attendance from ROI for these tracks? The reason the sanctioning fees are too high is directly related to attendance. If they were getting sell outs or 60-80k. They would have title sponsors beating there door down, they would have covered a large chunk of the sanctioning fee with ticket cost, and concession sales would also be a larger share of revenue. So, in short, this has everything to do with attendance at the ovals.

  23. #83
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    I think Barichello in the series is a good thing. I'm not going to use the phrase "International Motorsport" cuz' it sounds way too snooty and it ain't in my wheelhouse.
    "The Speedway has always been a part of Indiana, as the Derby is part of Kentucky. The 500 Mile Race should continue. I'd just like to be sure of sufficient income so we could make a few improvements each year." -- Tony Hulman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beej View Post
    Bernard is brainwashed to think ovals are unpopular, or with the current attendance has Bernard made a business decision that right now (sadly) ovals are unsustainable?
    Hah! He's employed by the owners of Indy, who own the series he manages lock, stock, and barrel.

    Due to the lack of popularity of this series, he's forced to look for "welfare" projects, i.e. city street circuits where local heros are able to hoodwink taxpayers into subsidizing their dreams ... at least for a year or two. Besides Indy and Texas there are few actual private enterprise track owners who are interested ... and after the snoozefest that was Texas last year, maybe this will be the last time there. It can only be up from there.

    No, that's more the reality Bernard faces and no way "his decision." Boy, you sure have to admire Andretti for trying another time at Milwaukee ... and don't you wish Penkse or Ganassi would do something similar?

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    Hah! He's employed by the owners of Indy, who own the series he manages lock, stock, and barrel.

    Due to the lack of popularity of this series, he's forced to look for "welfare" projects, i.e. city street circuits where local heros are able to hoodwink taxpayers into subsidizing their dreams ... at least for a year or two. Besides Indy and Texas there are few actual private enterprise track owners who are interested ... and after the snoozefest that was Texas last year, maybe this will be the last time there. It can only be up from there.

    No, that's more the reality Bernard faces and no way "his decision." Boy, you sure have to admire Andretti for trying another time at Milwaukee ... and don't you wish Penkse or Ganassi would do something similar?

    Er, I think we basically said the same thing here

  26. #86
    Sonoma has 1500 people come out for a test which the track said was the largest crowd ever for a test. I believe it was also said they sold 400 tickets the first day of the test which has never happened before.

    That's a bad thing?

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disciple
    Much of the hordes who have followed his career in F-1 are good fans, but do we need all of them?
    If they want to support Indy racing vis a vis Rubens, why not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack
    Its simply not true.
    You do remember that the Indianapolis 500 was a points-paying race in the Formula One WDC from 1950-1960, yes?

  28. #88
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    I watched Senn-The Documentary this morning on Xfiinity Streampix. Excellent documentary. I didn't know that a young Rubens was a pall bearer at Ayrton's funeral.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mako View Post

    You do remember that the Indianapolis 500 was a points-paying race in the Formula One WDC from 1950-1960, yes?
    Yes, I also remember there being 33 American drivers in the majority of those Indy 500's during that decade too.

    The Indy 500 has only become a "race for the rest of the world" in the past 20 years. Before then, the fields looked an awful lot like the Daytona 500 field looked a month ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    Yes, I also remember there being 33 American drivers in the majority of those Indy 500's during that decade too.

    The Indy 500 has only become a "race for the rest of the world" in the past 20 years. Before then, the fields looked an awful lot like the Daytona 500 field looked a month ago.
    Prior to 20 years ago the Indy 500 was alot more popular in this country as well. That is when Indy was auto racing in this country. It was not like that in 1995 just as now.

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