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Thread: Lotus releases a statement

  1. #121
    There is no substitute. Spike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    I tend to trust the people that actually worked in the Indycar industry (like grinding camshafts) rather than just some keyboard jockey who loves to argue.
    The trick is to not confuse cam grinding with axe grinding.
    "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

  2. #122
    Insider Glenn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    The trick is to not confuse cam grinding with axe grinding.
    You got me with this one, I'm sitting here laughing my a$$ off. Good one!

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    The trick is to not confuse cam grinding with axe grinding.


    Without looking, I'm pretty sure the Cosworth DFX went back to about 1967 in its original configuration. I know Ford had nothing to do with it being brough to Indy racing, that was Parnelli that got the ball rolling. But hey, I don't know my history.
    The simple point to all this is, when manufacturers come to play, the independents might eek out a win or two, but those wins will be far enough between them, that there will be no great rush to take on the manufacturers, even if engine leases and badging does not exist.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by BADGER View Post


    The simple point to all this is, when manufacturers come to play.
    Please tell me when Ford came to play?
    It was the 60's the last time Ford had anything to do with developing an IndyCar engine.
    Ford never had anything to do with the development of any Cosworth engine. They just paid to put their name on it.

    That's the problem with your whole premise. If you look at the history of Manufacturers developing engines in Indy Car, you do have the engines from TRD and HPD, but you also have the original Buick V6(developed by Buick engineers), the Olds Aurora(developed by GM engineers), and the 1960's FORD V8(developed by FORD engineers). Those are the products you get when the manufacturers come to play.
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  5. #125
    Ford never had anything to do with the development of any Cosworth engine. They just paid to put their name on it.
    Well following that logic, Chevy has always had Ilmor slap Bow Tie's on a motor they did not develop...
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  6. #126
    Will Jay Penske, Dragon Racing, run a Lotus in this year's Indy 500?

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARROWZ46 View Post
    Well following that logic, Chevy has always had Ilmor slap Bow Tie's on a motor they did not develop...
    100% correct.
    Ilmor is 100% responsible for the success of their engines. As is Cosworth. Manufacturer badging had nothing to do with it.

  8. #128
    Will any other teams assume "The Lotus Position" ? Sitting cross legged in meditation, waiting for a Honda or Chevy to materialize.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamKing View Post
    Please tell me when Ford came to play?
    It was the 60's the last time Ford had anything to do with developing an IndyCar engine.
    Ford never had anything to do with the development of any Cosworth engine. They just paid to put their name on it.That's the problem with your whole premise. If you look at the history of Manufacturers developing engines in Indy Car, you do have the engines from TRD and HPD, but you also have the original Buick V6(developed by Buick engineers), the Olds Aurora(developed by GM engineers), and the 1960's FORD V8(developed by FORD engineers). Those are the products you get when the manufacturers come to play.
    Actually, Ford had a lot to do with it because without their money, and their badge, Cosworth doesn't build an engine capable of taking on the Ilmor. Split hairs if it makes you feel better, but paying the bills, has a lot to do with developing an engine and it matters very little to most race fans if the hired guns building the engines reside in Dearborn or Northhampton.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamKing View Post
    100% correct.
    Ilmor is 100% responsible for the success of their engines. As is Cosworth. Manufacturer badging had nothing to do with it.
    A ridiculous statement. How many Indy racing or formula one wins does Ilmor have without that badging compared to when Chevy or Mercedes name is on the motor. That fact alone tells me Ilmor is not 100% responsible for the success of their engines.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by CamKing View Post
    100% correct.
    Ilmor is 100% responsible for the success of their engines. As is Cosworth. Manufacturer badging had nothing to do with it.

    I think Lotus would definitely agree that the manufacturers's $$$ is an important factor in the process.

    Chevy & Ford would also supply a group of engineers at select stages of these engine programs.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by BADGER View Post
    Actually, Ford had a lot to do with it because without their money, and their badge, Cosworth doesn't build an engine capable of taking on the Ilmor.
    Again, you are 100% wrong.
    The Cosworth engine was designed before Ford wrote the check to badge it, just like the Ilmor was designed before Chevy paid to badge it.

    Two of Cosworth's engineers left and started Ilmor, and designed an engine to beat the 25 year old Cosworth that everyone was running. Cosworth got back on their feet, and designed the all new XB to compete with the Ilmor.
    Neither engine had any input from the manufacturers, and the badging money came after the engines were designed.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by BADGER View Post
    A ridiculous statement. How many Indy racing or formula one wins does Ilmor have without that badging compared to when Chevy or Mercedes name is on the motor. That fact alone tells me Ilmor is not 100% responsible for the success of their engines.
    That's as stupid as saying the Steelers owe their success to their Black and Gold helmets.

    The check from Chevy didn't give them one added HP.

  14. #134
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    It does not look like he is wrong.

    In 1966, Colin Chapman (Lotus Cars founder and principal of Team Lotus) persuaded Ford to bankroll Keith Duckworth's design for a new lightweight 3,000 cubic centimetres (183.1 cu in) Formula One engine.[2] Cosworth received the order along with the £100,000 that Ford felt it adequate to spend on such an objective. The contract stipulated that a four-cylinder Ford-based F2 engine would be developed as proof of concept (see the FVA above) and that a pure Cosworth V8 would be built based on this.

  15. #135
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    From Wiki

    Founded as an independent British engine manufacturer in 1983, it started building engines for Indycars with the money of team owner and chassis manufacturer Roger Penske. The Ilmor-Chevrolet 265A debuted at the 1986 Indianapolis 500 with Team Penske driver Al Unser. In 1987, the engine program expanded to all three Team Penske drivers (Rick Mears, Danny Sullivan, and Unser), Patrick Racing, and Newman/Haas Racing. Mario Andretti, driving for Newman/Haas, won the Long Beach Grand Prix, the engine's first IndyCar victory. He also won the pole position for the 1987 Indianapolis 500. A year later, the engine was rebadged as the Chevy Indy V-8, and Rick Mears won the 1988 Indianapolis 500, the engine's first win at Indy. The engine went on to have a stellar record in CART. From 1987 to 1991, the engine won 64 of 78 races.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2 View Post
    It does not look like he is wrong.
    We're talking Indy Cars, and I already said the Last Indy Car engine Ford designed was in the 60's.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamKing View Post
    That's as stupid as saying the Steelers owe their success to their Black and Gold helmets.

    The check from Chevy didn't give them one added HP.
    Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better but you didn't tell me how many wins Ilmor has with an Ilmor badged engine. How did their motorcyle engine do? Any wins by Ilmor in F1 before Mercedes joined them. I saw the motorcycle engine at a Kart show, it was a work of art but it was not successful. Out of curiousity, why do you think the Chevy was prone to failures in 86, 87 yet became a reliable engine by 88. You really don't think that check for some dyno time, to pay for blow ups and replacement parts and engines might have bought some reliability and hp? I am not taking away the fact that Ilmor and Cosworth have some of the best engine men in the world, or that Ford or Chevy could have been as successful without them, but it still doesn't make your statements correct that the manufacturers had 0% do to with their success.

  18. #138
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    Get your head out of your past!!!

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by aowzone View Post
    Who's fault is that? If the teams weren't up to the vendor standards or they didn't see a long term viability plan, can you blame them?
    What about the suppliers' standards & reputation? Lotus has made themselves look like amateurs.

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