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Thread: Solving the engine supply problem

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamKing View Post
    P2P is advancement in technology. The series telling each driver how many times they can use it, is a gimmick.
    Different tire compounds is advancement in technology. limiting the number of faster compound tires a team can use is a gimmick.
    Awesome, some one gets me. I can now get off here and shoot something(targets, I dont shoot stuff I don't eat, except mice) or fishing something like all good indiana boys should be doing on their day off. Thanks Cam King.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supertuner View Post
    Not exactly. I'll make an example. Lets say electronic ignition replace points or magneto fire. So now electronic ignition is a gimmick. In turn it gets managed. So you say rev limiters are gimmicks because it's managed. It a natural outcome of technology.

    Your example of wings not being a gimmick. They replace well nothing besides no wings. Guess what happens next. Size is limited or managed.

    So does managing the technology mean it's a gimmick? No it does not follow that logic. You say managed electronics is a gimmick but managed aero componets are not.

    The number of ratios in a gearbox are managed, the size and location of mirrors are managed. You see my point?

    Edit. Turbos aren't gimmicks under the not being managed logic? Perhaps the most managed component ever.
    It's not that the tech itself is managed, it's that the tech manages competition. A rev limiter is there to do something besides win the race or keep the driver safe in the event of a crash, same with Hanford, same with the pit windows, etc. Sure, all the tech is managed, and to an extent that's a gimmick itself (where the management is in the sake of "competition", not in the sake of safety).

    A wing makes the car faster around the circuit, the same with a turbo, and a gearbox and a mirror. They're managed just as much as any other part on the car, but they do not "manage competition" as a function of their design. That, however is what the rev limiter, the hanford device, minimum wing angles, etc. etc. all do.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamKing View Post
    P2P is advancement in technology. The series telling each driver how many times they can use it, is a gimmick.
    Different tire compounds is advancement in technology. limiting the number of faster compound tires a team can use is a gimmick.
    Sorry to be argumentative, CamKing, but with that kind of definition it's not a stretch to say:
    Wings are an advancement in technology. The series telling the designers a wing can't be bigger than X nor be moveable would be a gimmick.
    Unobtainum connecting rods are an advancement in technology. Series limiting connecting rods to steel is a gimmick.
    ad nauseaum for any number of items that have rules limitations applied....
    Just as many as can be called gimmicks can also be called cost control
    new sig pending

  4. #64
    Oval & Road Racing Fan Mike Kellner's Avatar
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    Rev limiters are not at all advances in technology, they're in place to "manage competition". Same with the Hanford device,
    The Hanford Device was there to slow the cars on big ovals because nothing else worked. The leapfrog passing it created was an accident and no one predicted it before it was used at Michigan.

    All racing manages competition. Otherwise we'd be doing 300 at Indy and NASCAR would be seeing 250s at Daytona.
    Racing: there is no substitute.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamKing View Post
    That's the way it's always been, and they way it should be.
    My dad designed and built the turbo offy that powered Penske's first Indy win in '72. Right after the race, you either got in line for one of my dad's engines, or you started working on building a better engine. It was the same for th echassis manufacturers.
    The one thing you didn't do is sit around and wait for the lease to be up on your spec engine, or wait for IndyCar to tell your engine manufacturer when they can make an update.
    But there's too much money involved these days for that to happen. I don't understand why the different Racing organizations around the world don't come up with a budget cap and tell the teams/manufactures that the Can build whatever engine they like,as long as it doesn't cost more to buy and develop than the budget cap requires. That way, you can keep the costs down but at the same time have some innorvation different engines in the same series.
    'To finish first, you must first finish'. Rick Mears

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kellner View Post
    All racing manages competition. Otherwise we'd be doing 300 at Indy and NASCAR would be seeing 250s at Daytona.
    Agreed, however, it's about a balance between managing competition and letting the race teams race. I personally think that the low-HP, high-DF formula we're using currently is a little too biased toward managing competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TUBORG-fan View Post
    But there's too much money involved these days for that to happen. I don't understand why the different Racing organizations around the world don't come up with a budget cap and tell the teams/manufactures that the Can build whatever engine they like,as long as it doesn't cost more to buy and develop than the budget cap requires. That way, you can keep the costs down but at the same time have some innorvation different engines in the same series.
    That's very difficult to manage in reality. Do you have the staff be cut off from working on the engine after they've worked a certain number of hours, because their salaries will go over budget? What happens to teams that use last year's equipment and use their budget to make the car really fast v. new teams that have to develop from scratch? What happens if your last engine blows and you don't have the budget cap space to buy replacement parts?

  8. #68
    Oval & Road Racing Fan Mike Kellner's Avatar
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    Agreed, however, it's about a balance between managing competition and letting the race teams race. I personally think that the low-HP, high-DF formula we're using currently is a little too biased toward managing competition.
    I agree. I think the low power is needed on big ovals if you are going to open competition. A car that is optimized for big ovals with low downforce will go as fast as they want to see (230) with 500 HP, maybe less. I believe that would produce better racing than 700 HP cars that are glued to the ground to slow them with aero drag.

    My comment was aimed at the notion that all regulation is stage management. The flip side, that everything is a gimmick that adds nothing but expense and needs regulation is equally bad for the sport. The series needs to find leverage points to control speed, like fair ways to control power and limiting very expensive technologies, yet allow people to work on making the car go faster by the usual massaging of the equipment. IE, managed competition. Personally I feel that we currently have too much management and not enough competition. I would like to see a return to formula racing be one of the five year goals.

  9. #69
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by debdrake View Post
    Too late for this year, but for 2013, crank up the price of the engines till supply equalizes with demand. We've got more (full season) cars and teams than the grid will hold (or at least we would, if the teams could get engines) - so raise the prices. Manufacturers will be more willing to field additional entries if they make money (or at least lose less money) on each one.
    Elminate engine leases....problem solved.
    The transformation is complete. The Indy 500 is the only IndyCar race that matters.

  11. #71
    Common Sense Says:

    1.) Give them an engine size limit
    2.) Give them x amount of fuel
    Let them build any engine they want, and put a claiming rule on it. That way if RP or CG want to spend millions to build a one off engine, they just might me lining up behind it at the next race.
    3.) Take all the aero crap off and let the real drivers drive. It used to be fun watching someone past others while drifting through a corner. (Why do you think drifting is so popular) Flat footing it around an oval doesn't prove anything if everyone is doing it.

    Flame Away

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by THE BEAR View Post

    That's what happens when you try to 'manage' the marketplace.

    Take the cuffs off. Write the rules. Let em build within the rules, and then let's go race.
    +1000000

    The over management and control over the whole engine program by Indy Car is the cause of most of the problems.

    Let's have real competition.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan View Post
    +1000000

    The over management and control over the whole engine program by Indy Car is the cause of most of the problems.

    Let's have real competition.
    Keith Koether http://www.kkraceshots.com

    Ex ARCA, ASA and local bullring crewdog. I remember when racing was really racing and the Talladega Express!!!

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamKing View Post
    That's the way it's always been, and they way it should be.
    I miss those days. But I'm afraid they'll not be seen again in my lifetime.....
    "Turn right to go left" Doc Hudson

  15. #75
    Oval & Road Racing Fan Mike Kellner's Avatar
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    I miss those days. But I'm afraid they'll not be seen again in my lifetime.....
    I don't believe that is true.

    We now have displacement, boost, and rev limits. That pretty well limits how much power the motors can make and reduces the value of engine development. It does not reduce the value of working on drivability and fuel mileage. If you limit exotic materials and technologies, engine prices will stay in the reasonable range. The whole rest of the car can be opened to development. Computers lower the cost of playing what if and testing ideas before you build parts and that will only improve. In the end, smart people will make the big difference.

    Again, we can look to F1. Adrian Newey and Ross Brawn have demonstrated that clever design can trump the massive resources of Ferrari and McLaren. If Indycar teams were free to innovate beyond moving the mirrors and different shape end plates we might see more teams able to challenge P&G. Spec has demonstrated that it does not level the playing field, but rather locks in the advantages of the large rich teams by locking out innovation and reducing the value of cleverness.

  16. #76
    Of course, all these "define the box and let them build to fill it" arguments ignore the fact the RoI on IndyCar right now is so low that the series can't even get factories to build enough engines for all the cars. No companies were willing to build chassis at a price point the teams could afford.

    Sure, open up everything ... except the tracks, because with only Ganassi and Penske able to afford to run, there would be no series.

    Right now the series is taking a plainly compromised short route out of its grave towards health. All of these "Great" ideas about "making it like the old days" would knock the series back into that grave and shovel dirt on it.

    Hopefully the series will someday soon have the sponsor cachet, the TV appeal, the fanbase and the team budgets to let the teams really go racing (and then you can all complain because Penske and Ganassi still win much more than everyone else, because really, most of you just like to complain.)

    For now, I am happy that there even is an IndyCar. Four years and two months ago there were two competing series, neither of which could fill a grid or make a buck. Maybe you don't recall that ChampCar actually raced after St. Pete in 2008? If TG hadn't opened his mind and his checkbook one last time to bring the remnants of ChampCar into the then IRL, we might be watching NASCAR right now.

    people who enjoy complaining wil always find reasons to complain. And I can see reasons for complaint: right now IndyCar is Not where any of us want it to be. Thing is, it really hadn't been since the late '90s. I'd say the prognosis now is better than at any time this century. People who complain and ignore that context are ... ignorant.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE BEAR View Post
    Funny how when we had one supplier, engines were not an issue.

    Now that we have three 'suppilers', suddenly there are not enough engines to go around.

    That's what happens when you try to 'manage' the marketplace.

    Take the cuffs off. Write the rules. Let em build within the rules, and then let's go race.


    Lissenup
    ...Always follow the money

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakester View Post
    Sorry to be argumentative, CamKing, but with that kind of definition it's not a stretch to say:
    Wings are an advancement in technology. The series telling the designers a wing can't be bigger than X nor be moveable would be a gimmick.
    Unobtainum connecting rods are an advancement in technology. Series limiting connecting rods to steel is a gimmick.
    ad nauseaum for any number of items that have rules limitations applied....
    Just as many as can be called gimmicks can also be called cost control
    No, those are rules to cut costs, and increase safety.
    It would be a gimmick if they said "you can have movable wings, but only move them 7 times a race" or "you can run unobtainium rods, but only for 6 races a year".
    "IRL" ... what IS that anyway?

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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfalconf35 View Post
    That's very difficult to manage in reality. Do you have the staff be cut off from working on the engine after they've worked a certain number of hours, because their salaries will go over budget? What happens to teams that use last year's equipment and use their budget to make the car really fast v. new teams that have to develop from scratch? What happens if your last engine blows and you don't have the budget cap space to buy replacement parts?
    It would be All up to the teams how they spent their money. If you Can freeze an entire nations bank accounts, you Can freeze a race team's as well.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
    Of course, all these "define the box and let them build to fill it" arguments ignore the fact the RoI on IndyCar right now is so low that the series can't even get factories to build enough engines for all the cars.
    This is the ignorant thinking that is killing IndyCar.
    The RoI sucks right now, so what does IndyCar do? they charge millions to manufacturers to badge engines.
    Indy Car isn't short on engine builders wanting to build engines. They're short on Manufacturers willing to give millions to IndyCar just to badge an engine they don't build.

    When your RoI is too low to attract interest, you have two options. Reduce the investment, or increase the return. Increasing the return is the only long term answer.

  21. #81
    Oval & Road Racing Fan Mike Kellner's Avatar
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    When your RoI is too low to attract interest, you have two options. Reduce the investment, or increase the return. Increasing the return is the only long term answer.
    How about making your product more interesting?

    The arguments about nuts and bolts is meaningless without customers. I believe all roads lead back to our crappy TV shows, which are the real advertising for the series. I watch F1 and usually watch The Daytona 500. Both have TV shows that are several orders of magnitude better. I don't even think it needs more money, just different people doing the same jobs for the same pay. We need to make the story of each race and the larger tale of the championship into compelling TV. Do that and the money will be there. Don't do that and it won't matter what we race, where, or who the drivers are.

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by TUBORG-fan View Post
    It would be All up to the teams how they spent their money. If you Can freeze an entire nations bank accounts, you Can freeze a race team's as well.
    A private financial audit of a business is straightforward. Business partners and lenders routinely receive audits, and a material misrepresentation on such an audit is a criminal fraud.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by warped worm View Post
    Common Sense Says:

    1.) Give them an engine size limit
    Agreed, but implement a stock block rule as well. Those Buicks were interesting.
    2.) Give them x amount of fuel
    Agreed, this is what made Group C awesome.

    Let them build any engine they want, and put a claiming rule on it. That way if RP or CG want to spend millions to build a one off engine, they just might me lining up behind it at the next race.
    This is where I disagree. They spend the money, they should get to use it.

    3.) Take all the aero crap off and let the real drivers drive. It used to be fun watching someone past others while drifting through a corner. (Why do you think drifting is so popular) Flat footing it around an oval doesn't prove anything if everyone is doing it.


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  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kellner View Post
    None that I can see. Neither seems to understand what is interesting about automobile racing.

    I offered a plan to get back to racing staring with the old cars.

    Year 1) Ditch the rev limiter, control power with an inlet restrictor, and allow open development of engines and chassis.

    Year 2) Allow new chassis built to a formula that would make the old chassis legal and allow any engine with a common inlet restrictor. Let the competitors decide what to bring, measure it to see if it is legal, and have the series worry exclusively about staging and promoting races.

    Year 3) Tweak the rules using knowledge gained in year 2.
    Agree with this completely. The problem isn't the new car, it's the fact that you HAVE to run the new car because the old one is no longer legal. It's not as if in 1995, even with more money around, that everybody could get their hands on current equipment either, but you could bring a '94, '93 or whatever chassis/engine and have your shot. OK it wouldn't be as fast, but better than not running at all.

    But then of course, the whole thing about the "haves and have nots", well that's the way it is. Some teams have more resources and can afford the better or more up to date equipment. Go spec-racing and the teams with more resources can afford the better engineers, mechanics and drivers, end result the same.

    And it's not like the Penske and Ganassi teams were created with silver spoons up their rears anyway, they got to where they are by being good at what they do. My first season of watching IndyCar racing Ganassi was running a single customer Lola-Ford and came eighth in the championship. But a series of shrewd moves - being the first to gamble on the new Reynard, seeing the potential in the Reynard/Honda/Firestone combo that Tasman were running, hiring Zanardi when his F1 record was hardly great, set themselves up for a period of success that meant that they could build a relationship with Target that kept the money and in turn success flowing...

    But it's not a circle that can't be broken - Newman/Haas didn't stay on top forever, or in F1 look at the respective directions that Red Bull (formerly Stewart/Jaguar) and Williams have gone in.

  25. #85
    Agreed, this is what made Group C awesome.
    Total fuel limits made Group C possible (take whatever engine you have, make it work, and get to the end of the distance as best you can), but they didn't make it great. The long distance races from the Group C period were dramatic, but they didn't have wheel to wheel racing. Derek Bell said that it was not much fun to drive and not entertaining for the fans in shorter races when he had to switch to conservation settings in his 956 and putter around to the finish.

    IMSA sprint races with Group C cars weren't regulated by fuel consumption.

    I think that total fuel consumption gives turbos an advantage in sprint races, because you can briefly up the boost a few times in the race to avoid being passed, but atmos don't have that resource. I'd prefer not to do that.

    If you had fuel flow limiters (maximum rate), I think you might be on to something. You might be able to take all other rules off the engine, unless there are specific technologies you want to prohibit or require for business reasons.
    Last edited by atrackforumfan; 07-27-2012 at 11:22 PM.

  26. #86
    Registered User goldie19's Avatar
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    The secret to beating Penske....same as beating anybody at anything: get more money than them!

    See NASCAR for proof/ideas
    I Love May!

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldie19 View Post
    The secret to beating Penske....same as beating anybody at anything: get more money than them!

    See NASCAR for proof/ideas
    You really think Stewart-Hass with their leased Hendrick engines are spending more then Penske ???

  28. #88
    "h" is my middle name PHJIndy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldie19 View Post
    The secret to beating Penske....same as beating anybody at anything: get more money than them!

    See NASCAR for proof/ideas
    I order to beat Team Penske, you have to outwork them and that's very hard to do.
    RP just doesn't throw money at it!
    Have a very blessed day!

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