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Thread: Engine Competition, Humbug!

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambig88 View Post
    Nobody is entitled to a Chevy or Honda engine if Chevy and Honda don't want them.
    Of course not.

    That's the way the Indianapolis 500 grew to the prestigious event it has over the past 100 years. Selective competition.
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by crispy View Post
    Why do you lie?
    From everything I've read of you, it's all whining over going back to engine competition.



    Again with the falsehoods. They would have supplied half the series at the right price.
    LOL. You call it a "falsehood," yet you backup that assertion with an opinion based on nothing. If Honda and Chevy don't want to supply 15/15 or 13/13 cars, then that's it. You act as if IndyCar can wave a magic hand, throw out some dollars and the situation would be fixed. You're not just talking about a simple increase in engines. You're talking about an increase in engineering staff, increase in manufacturing, all of which can place a large burden on the company.

    But hey, keep on living in crispy world, where all your problems can be solved with money and candy and unicorns and pixies and all sorts of magical adventures!
    Last edited by doitagain; 05-07-2012 at 10:32 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    Of course not.

    That's the way the Indianapolis 500 grew to the prestigious event it has over the past 100 years. Selective competition.
    Before the split were you ever able to get the exact package you wanted?

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Langhorne View Post
    Just like in 1996?
    No. Not like in 1996. The IRL, a racing series, was at Indy in 1996. CART was practically not permitted to race.

    If IndyCar were to not race next year at Indy, there would be no replacement, unless the track was willing to form a racing league again.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskie4041 View Post
    Before the split were you ever able to get the exact package you wanted?
    You were able to field a car in the Indy 500, if you had the money, team and driver. NO team was ever excluded, when they had those things in order. You could get a Cosworth DFS or a Buick or a Menard or a Chevy stockblock V8. Was Kent Baker's team going to win? Hell no. They weren't going to beat Penske or Pat Patrick's team no matter what they had. But they could at least go to Indy and try to be one of the 33 in the race.

    This LOTUS deal is a complete joke. 4 races in and they are probably done. No teams wanted them and it seems they really didn't want to be here anyway.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambig88 View Post
    From everything I've read of you, it's all whining over going back to engine competition.

    LOL. You call it a "falsehood," yet you backup that assertion with an opinion based on nothing. If Honda and Chevy don't want to supply 15/15 or 13/13 cars, then that's it. You act as if IndyCar can wave a magic hand, throw out some dollars and the situation would be fixed. You're not just talking about a simple increase in engines. You're talking about an increase in engineering staff, increase in manufacturing, all of which can place a large burden on the company.

    But hey, keep on living in crispy world, where all your problems can be solved with money and candy and unicorns and pixies and all sorts of magical adventures!
    That's your excuse for lying? You made a claim that no suggestions were offered. Why don't you back it up?

    Honda said they preferred competition but if asked they would continue to be a sole supplier but that the price per lease would go up.

    That's a fact. So far, you are lacking with facts of your own.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by crispy View Post
    That's your excuse for lying? You made a claim that no suggestions were offered. Why don't you back it up?
    Lying? So, you go around calling people liars when they disagree with you? How much more childish can you get? Seriously, grow up.

    Honda said they preferred competition but if asked they would continue to be a sole supplier but that the price per lease would go up.
    And Honda has stated they don't want to be the sole supplier in IndyCar:

    Honda has dominated the IRL the past two seasons and clinched its second straight manufacturer’s title in Sunday’s Honda Indy 225 at Pikes Peak International Raceway. But while Robert Clarke, general manager and vice president of Honda Motorsports, was celebrating another championship, he could not escape the question of whether Honda would remain with the IRL.
    “Well, that’s probably another discussion for another time,” Clarke said. “I don’t want to ruin a good weekend.”
    Clarke has held to his comments that Honda does not want to be the IRL’s sole supplier.
    On Sunday, however, he changed his stance slightly.

    “It’s something that we have to consider,” Clarke said. “Now that the direction of things seems to be more clear, it’s time for Honda to consider what it’s going to do. I can tell you we’ve been very pleased with the relationship we’ve had with the Indy Racing League, what we’ve gotten out of it today.
    “We’re not looking to leave. I’ll leave you at that.”
    Clarke said Honda is open to exploring all possibilities to continue its involvement in the IRL.
    “It’s our preference and our wish to compete against another engine company,” Clarke said. “Whether we can achieve that or not, we don’t know. We have a good relationship with the IRL.”
    Because that relationship with the IRL and Honda is so strong, Clarke feels tremendous responsibility to do the right thing.
    “I feel that if we left the IRL, it would do damage to both sides,” Clarke said. “I feel some responsibility to that. We came to this series to contribute to make it better and we believe our participation has made it better. To walk away from it would damage it. Although it’s not my decision alone, I believe that Honda in general supports that thinking.”

    Yes. Honda will support the series if it absolutely came to it (I never said they wouldn't). But they don't want to!


    That's a fact. So far, you are lacking with facts of your own.
    I'm not. You're just presenting the parts of the truth that supports your own opinion.

    Are you done being a child and can we have a serious discussion, or is that too much to ask from you in this section?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    You were able to field a car in the Indy 500, if you had the money, team and driver. NO team was ever excluded, when they had those things in order. You could get a Cosworth DFS or a Buick or a Menard or a Chevy stockblock V8. Was Kent Baker's team going to win? Hell no. They weren't going to beat Penske or Pat Patrick's team no matter what they had. But they could at least go to Indy and try to be one of the 33 in the race.

    This LOTUS deal is a complete joke. 4 races in and they are probably done. No teams wanted them and it seems they really didn't want to be here anyway.
    It appears that Michael Shank Racing did have the opportunity to sign with Lotus.

    Thus, I fail to see the difference between Kent Baker's team and Michael Shank Racing with a Lotus engine....both "could at least go to Indy and try to be one of the 33 in the race". Do you really think MSR (even with a Honda or a Chevy) would be a credible threat to win Indy in their first attempt?
    new sig pending

  9. #39
    Curse you darkness! crispy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambig88 View Post
    Those of you who criticize the series so much for this have offered no solutions, only whining.
    Quote Originally Posted by ambig88 View Post
    Lying? So, you go around calling people liars when they disagree with you? How much more childish can you get? Seriously, grow up.
    You lied. Plain and simple. Makes no difference whether I disagree with you or not. You stated a falsehood as truth.

  10. #40
    I'd rather have some competition than the minor league spec series we were previously.

    Spec series are for the feeder series. International elite racing has technological competition, crispy, whether you like it or not

  11. #41
    Curse you darkness! crispy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstonracefan View Post
    I'd rather have some competition than the minor league spec series we were previously.

    Spec series are for the feeder series. International elite racing has technological competition, crispy, whether you like it or not
    Got some bad news for you. We still have a spec. series...

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambig88 View Post
    No. Not like in 1996. The IRL, a racing series, was at Indy in 1996. CART was practically not permitted to race.
    Ohhh, 'practically not permitted', I see.
    "A lot of information on the Internet quickly occupies niche spaces, for specialized audiences, which use it for their own purposes."

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by crispy View Post
    You lied. Plain and simple. Makes no difference whether I disagree with you or not. You stated a falsehood as truth.
    Incorrect. I see you're still full of crap.

    Those of you who criticize the series so much for this have offered no solutions, only whining
    Not a lie. All I see is you saying "I TOLD YOU SO" and jumping down everyone's throat who likes the current situation over the one you would have wanted. You saying "the series should have done...." isn't a solution. It's trolling.

    Got some bad news for you. We still have a spec. series...
    Now THIS is a falsehood. YOU LIE! Multiple engine manufacturers with different turbo configuration does not make a spec series, liar.

    Ohhh, 'practically not permitted', I see.
    Again, you threw out "1996." That was not a case of CART choosing not to go to Indy with Indy having no race series to support it. It was a case of the track creating a racing series that displaced CART from the race.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambig88 View Post
    Not a lie. All I see is you saying "I TOLD YOU SO" and jumping down everyone's throat who likes the current situation over the one you would have wanted. You saying "the series should have done...." isn't a solution. It's trolling.
    Multiple solutions offered by Doc and I. Not the least of which was sticking with a sole supplier. Another was independent engine builders a la IRL 1997. That one got laughed at. Nevertheless, your basic premise is a falsehood. Period.



    Quote Originally Posted by ambig88 View Post
    Now THIS is a falsehood. YOU LIE! Multiple engine manufacturers with different turbo configuration does not make a spec series, liar.
    Sure it is. Can the engine manufacturers change the engine whenever they want? That would be no. Can anyone build an engine according to published rules? That would be no.

    I don't think "Spec." means what you think it means...

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by crispy View Post
    Sure it is. Can the engine manufacturers change the engine whenever they want? That would be no. Can anyone build an engine according to published rules? That would be no.

    I don't think "Spec." means what you think it means...
    I don't think you know what a spec racing series is... I'll let wikipedia clear that one up for you:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spec_racing

    One-make racing (known as spec racing in North America) is a racing category in which all competitors race in identical or very similar vehicles from the same manufacturer, often using the same model. Typically, this means the same chassis, tyres and engine are used by all drivers. The idea behind one-make racing is that success will be based more on driver skill and car setup instead of engineering skill and budget. One-make series are popular at an amateur level as they are affordable, due to the use of a common engine and chassis.
    With different engine manufacturers, it is not a spec series... Keep up with the lying.

    Multiple solutions offered by Doc and I. Not the least of which was sticking with a sole supplier. Another was independent engine builders a la IRL 1997. That one got laughed at. Nevertheless, your basic premise is a falsehood. Period.
    If the crux of your argument now rests on me not considering your horrible ideas as solutions, then you win. You got me!

    Come back when you actually have something to discuss.

  16. #46
    Gone from one end of the spectrum to the other. Instead of attempting to force a spec. engine series, now they are attempting to force a non spec. series. Either way, the competitors will want what is most competitive if they can afford it, or they won't be in the game for long.

  17. #47
    Curse you darkness! crispy's Avatar
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    Thanks. You proved my point... "very similar vehicles"

    Identical chassis. Identical tires. Choice of sealed engine A or sealed engine B that you picked before you ever ran one.

    Spec. series.


    So any solution you don't like doesn't count? Thus no solutions were offered? That's rich. Why don't you go away and not come back period.

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by crispy View Post
    Thanks. You proved my point... "very similar vehicles"

    Identical chassis. Identical tires. Choice of sealed engine A or sealed engine B that you picked before you ever ran one.

    Spec. series.
    Oh look. Selective quoting!

    "from the same manufacturer, often using the same model. "

    So any solution you don't like doesn't count? Thus no solutions were offered?
    LOL! First of all, I was being sarcastic. Second of all the "solution" with what you offered (and no, I'm not going to go back through and read every single one of your "solutions") is far from a viable solution in the here and now sense. It's far too late to go to a NASCAR style of engine building (not to mention is bloody expensive, and they've practically gone to a lease system where the very rich teams build engines and everyone else leases from them). A solution can't be something that could have been done a year ago. That's not a solution to a current problem. We don't have Deloreans that we can hop into and go back in time and correct a problem. If that was the case a simpler solution would be to not allow Lotus entry into the series.

    Why don't you go away and not come back period.
    Why don't you take your own advice, seeing as how a separate section was created for you to contain your drivel.

    I guess you're starting to run out of room to argue when you're stretching your arguments to this length to make it work. Now you're resorting to the type of lying you're accusing me of to make reality fit your own little insane asylum of a world. Selective quoting! Ignoring arguments you have no argument again! You're trying to change definitions to make your argument work. You are the definition of a logical fallacy.

    Again, come back when you have something to actually discuss. My guess is you'll be back but still without the capacity to be logical and adult.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by crispy View Post
    Thanks. You proved my point... "very similar vehicles"

    Identical chassis. Identical tires. Choice of sealed engine A or sealed engine B that you picked before you ever ran one.

    Spec. series.


    So any solution you don't like doesn't count? Thus no solutions were offered? That's rich. Why don't you go away and not come back period.
    The fact that there is a choice between two different engine manufacturers makes it no longer a spec series.
    We drive 800 miles every year to see them go 500 miles. And we're glad to do it.

  20. #50
    Yup. He's a LIAR!

  21. #51
    Administrative Fool doitagain's Avatar
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    I think it's debatable whether or not Honda would actually, enthusiastically support the series as a sole supplier indefinitely or for one more season, even, beyond situational PR speak.

    It's also highly debatable whwther or not that would result in higher or lower participation from fans and competitors and present a feasible choice for the series.

    That doesn't make it a solution, and it doesn't make debating it a lie. That makes it debatable.
    "The series may be hesitant to say it, but the day is here for everybody that loves IndyCar racing to link arms and help each other out. Anybody who doesn’t want to do that needs to find something else to do with their time.”

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  22. #52
    Curse you darkness! crispy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joonyah View Post
    The fact that there is a choice between two different engine manufacturers makes it no longer a spec series.
    That's a joke and MOST around here have figured that out.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by doitagain View Post
    I think it's debatable whether or not Honda would actually, enthusiastically support the series as a sole supplier indefinitely or for one more season, even, beyond situational PR speak.

    It's also highly debatable whwther or not that would result in higher or lower participation from fans and competitors and present a feasible choice for the series.

    That doesn't make it a solution, and it doesn't make debating it a lie. That makes it debatable.
    It certainly WAS one of many solutions offered. Along with removing the badging requirement. Along with contracting directly with Ilmor. YOU may not think it viable, but that is YOUR opinion only.

    Still the fact remains, many solutions were offered. Saying that they weren't is and was a lie. Period.

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by crispy View Post
    That's a joke and MOST around here have figured that out.
    You want a joke? I'll give you a joke.

    Knock Knock.
    Who's there?
    Danica.
    Danica who?
    Exactly.

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by crispy View Post
    It certainly WAS one of many solutions offered. Along with removing the badging requirement. Along with contracting directly with Ilmor. YOU may not think it viable, but that is YOUR opinion only.

    Still the fact remains, many solutions were offered. Saying that they weren't is and was a lie. Period.
    Again, your "solutions" offer nothing for now. Removing the badging requirement wouldn't fix anything right now. Contracting directly with Ilmor wouldn't fix anything right now. How are these solutions when they're nothing more than "woulda shoulda coulda's?"

    Not one of those "solutions" could be implemented with success before Indy. Not a single damn one of them! If that's a solution, then here's one that's better than everything else! IndyCar should have gotten more manufacturers in the series! Oh, and then they should fill the stands at all the tracks. Then they should overtake Nascar in popularity. INDYCAR! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING? DO IT INDYCAR. JUST DO IT. THOSE ARE THE SOLUTIONS TO ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS!

  26. #56
    Curse you darkness! crispy's Avatar
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    These solutions weren't offered up after the troubles began three weeks ago. They were discussed LAST YEAR when the current rules were being hashed out by IndyCar. They were offered up as alternatives BEFORE we went down this road.

    You'd know that if you didn't just get here yesterday...

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by crispy View Post
    These solutions weren't offered up after the troubles began three weeks ago. They were discussed LAST YEAR when the current rules were being hashed out by IndyCar. They were offered up as alternatives BEFORE we went down this road.

    You'd know that if you didn't just get here yesterday...
    And as much as you think you have a crystal ball, you don't. You got lucky. Whose to say we wouldn't have still had problems? Whose to say they would have actually worked?

  28. #58
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    "Removing the badging requirement wouldn't fix anything right now."

    Maybe they should check with Judd on that. Judd builds customer engines very successfully in many forms of racing and prolly would do so in Indy car. They are in a bad deal with Lotus that is a by product of the Badging requirement.

    PS: The sole intent of this thread was to lament the apparent loss of second line drama at Indy this year, and the fact that the engine situation is (apparently) to blame. But it was hijacked by the agenda pirates and now we are in a deep dark cavern that I didn't even know existed. sigh. . .

  29. #59
    Curse you darkness! crispy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambig88 View Post
    And as much as you think you have a crystal ball, you don't. You got lucky. Whose to say we wouldn't have still had problems? Whose to say they would have actually worked?
    Doc and I didn't need a crystal ball. We've seen this same scenario play out a dozen times over the course of our lives watching racing. We've seen this movie, we know how it ends. We just didn't expect it to be a Short.

  30. #60
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    Perhaps what you've seen is a steady state of declining popularity and various strategies to work around it.

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