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Thread: Thought this Place could use this, Read if you wish.

  1. #1
    Registered User Grinder-Tank's Avatar
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    Thought this Place could use this, Read if you wish.

    Get your head out of your past!!!

  2. #2
    Minion of the VRWC Lemming51's Avatar
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    Common sense, reasoned analysis. Is that allowed here?
    "Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob." - Federalist 55
    “My first reaction as a race car driver was to jump out of the car and use the Foyt technique of driver development - grab him and pound some sense into him.”
    "Make way. I'm Reaganing."

  3. #3
    Sulli from f(x) Hitokiri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinder-Tank View Post
    A very good and fair assessment of today's Indycar.
    "The only good horsepower is usable horsepower.."

  4. #4
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    When you click on the "legions Of The Miserable" link in the 2nd paragraph, it should bring you to TRACKFORUM.
    To do something well is so worthwhile that to die trying to do it better cannot be foolhardy. - Bruce McLaren

    Ryan Briscoe 8
    James Hinchcliffe 27

  5. #5
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    Find a reason to enjoy the things you love. Continue to discuss logical ways to cure deficiencies in the series. If it is not fulfilling you like it once was take a break, no one will blame you but you will be missed dearly. In the words of someone who was sane enough to bow out when the time invested didn’t return accordingly: “Please try to remember this…it’s a sport…an escape. If you aren’t having fun, YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!”

  6. #6
    Insider Glenn's Avatar
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    Who is this Eric Hall fellow, pretty darn smart if you ask me!

  7. #7
    Registered User JMFVET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyCarSeries View Post
    When you click on the "legions Of The Miserable" link in the 2nd paragraph, it should bring you to TRACKFORUM.
    I thought it did so I didnt bother checking the link.

    Great essay.
    You can be a critical fan without being a Critic... Or can you? Quit your b'tchn and enjoy the racing :D

  8. #8
    Certifiable Neshaminy's Avatar
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    Constructive criticism usually has a potential cure attached to it, otherwise it's just bitchin', and I hear that enough around the house without signing on here.
    Katharine's Legge is in the gravel!--Jenks

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyCarSeries View Post
    When you click on the "legions Of The Miserable" link in the 2nd paragraph, it should bring you to TRACKFORUM.
    I actually expected that to be the case and was slightly disappointed when it wasn't. Oh well, I'll get over it.

    Regarding his blog post itself, he has made a very valid statement. As a young fan (18-25 age bracket), my memory of open wheel racing is post-split. However, this memory is augmented by listening to my dad (long LONG time open wheel racing fan) talk about great drivers and great racing before my time so I have an appreciation for the tradition. That being said, thinking forward while respecting the past is what's going to make things work. Granted, I am not an economist or a business person so it's not like I could come up with some idea to make my previous statement actually hold water. The general tone of this blog post seemed to suggest that we should appreciate the "blank slate" we have and I agree with that sentiment.

  10. #10
    Thanks for posting GT. Great read. This Eric Hall guy gets it.

  11. #11
    Micro Sprint Driver Dez1013's Avatar
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    So? Domed?

    J/k, good read.
    US24 Speedway Non Wing Rookie of the Year - 2012

  12. #12
    Minion of the VRWC Lemming51's Avatar
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    "Domed?"


    I'm seeing this more and more. Is "domed" the new "pwnd"?

  13. #13
    There is no substitute. Spike's Avatar
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    Not quite. It's TF's version of "doomed" - started after someone recently typed it wrong.

    It's all the rage. All the cool kids are doing it.
    "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

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    Good read!

  15. #15
    It's a sane recap of where things are. What he doesn't mention is the 'numbers', which speak for themselves.

    Relaunching Indy Car is a pretty straightforward process. The dreaming needs to be put to bed, and the reality needs to be dealt with. We can argue all day about whether the things which Eric touches upon are good or bad in terms of racing, but the reality is that virtually nobody cares and from the response to recent changes-- now that a few months and half a season have gone past, the current product is unlikely to recruit significant new fans. Simply stated, it is just not happening.

    No, you can't go back, but you can use some of the history to redevelop the series. It needs to be done pretty quickly, or...ahem....it will turn into a 'club racing series' of which we have just witnessed the demise.

  16. #16
    Insider AFColt's Avatar
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    Eric did a tremendous job with this article. I agree 100%.

    That's the kind of fan you want to hang with. No gripe, just enjoying one hell of a season.
    IndyCar Advocate: A blog about enjoying the best sport in the world! Stop on by!
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    On Twitter as @indycaradvocate

  17. #17
    Good article for the most part.
    Positive criticism? Not allowed around here. Gotta go along with the needs of a few and if any criticism is offered, constructive or not one hears, "LEAVE, your not a fan".
    Maybe this should be required reading for everyone, not just those who want to.

  18. #18
    nothing new, I've read similar that were better written..."can't we all just get along" at least he realizes someboby has to pay for all this, something most here forget time and time again...

  19. #19
    Hey Hey TrackForum...

    Thank you for picking up on this article, and thank you even more for the positive words. The link has been fixed, I'm not sure how you knew where it was going to land... your kung-fu frightens me.

    @THE BEAR - Once again, this is the perfect example of what I was speaking of. "Relaunching Indy Car is a pretty straight forward process" OK,but how do we do it? "the current product is unlikely to recruit significant new fans." a possible valid point; how would you do it with no money, no cooperation from team owners, shaky promoters and permanent facilities that simply don't want us? It's easy to "point out" the "deficiencies" of the series when your not the one signing thechecks.

    4-5 years of this current level of growth and momentum will put us back into a workable semi consciousness sleep instead of a persistent vegetative state. See a race somewhere other than Indianapolis, watch the races and DVR them as well, invite someone new over to enjoy the sport with you, find a local sports bar that will show the race; there are many things we can all do to help the series out. One of them is to stop vomiting fire at every chance you get. I don’t usually post here because discussions don't take place. It's all hate, fire and YOUR NOT A REAL FAN IF...

    ... yea… that will totally make new fans want to stay if they continue tohear that...

    BUT, y'all have been playing nice today! thank you, its very refreshing.
    life long indycar fan 6 miles north of the pagoda

    #1 word hack at http://anotherindycarblog.wordpress.com/

    follow me on twitter @Erock_in_Indy

  20. #20
    Eric,

    I think we got the 'pop' out of the new car and the new engine programs. Usually a new/upgraded product intro has a large pop, and then it levels off somewhere above where it was, and well below the peak achieved during the promo associated with the product.

    Sadly, Indy Car does virtually no promotion so there was less than a huge pop with the new intro , and we settled down somewhere slightly above where we were last year, except for fewer events, so far. Point number one is that the series has to have a good product, and it has to market it. Without getting snarky, the product is sort of blah, and therefore they either chose not to market it (?), or just still don't see the value in promotion and marketing (?). Even something as simple as a workable web site seems to have eluded them.

    If i am running the show, i would seriously look at the product. Trying to be a NASCAR clone is too late. That space for race fans is already taken, so you have to do something new.

    My own view is that things were more exciting and interesting from the fan perspective when you could follow a driver up the ladder. You knew who they were from outstanding performances in other series, and you followed them into Indy car as their next step. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see that happen again, and have them bring along a fan base?

    There are a lot of reasons why this doesn't happen any longer, but one of them is the car. What do you graduate from in order to get a seat in an Indy Car? The feeder series is lites, but nobody runs there, and the guys in Indy Cars don't go back to run the lites series where the younger drivers maybe could learn something.

    To me it all comes down to the car. What we have is clearly uninteresting to the fans. I would like to see them get away from the cookie cutter cars and get back to innovation. We know that the bright engineering minds are not interested in building a few aero packages for a spec car, but they would i believe come back to racing if they can design things from the ground up. Open the rule book. If it fits in the box, it runs.

    Clealry there are about 25,000fans who attend a race...oval or road course. Maybe they draw a few more to a festival run on the streets. The series needs to accept that hard figure, which hasn't changed much in recent years, and size the product for that audience. Find tracks that are a half mile or more...up to a mile....where the seating is 25,000 or so and sell em out 30 to 35 events per year. Make the series visible at the grass roots level. Develop fans at the grass roots level. Bring em along as you run maybe a few of the big tracks as special events each year. Imagine the excitement of seeing these cars run 5/8 or 3/4 mile tracks for a half dozen weeks, and then go to a place like Michigan where they can really let it hang out? Build demand. Build excitement. People will care, i really believe that...especially if you can get them in for $35 or so a pop. That is affordable to many who are now shut out by the cost of tickets.

    And of course, market and promote it.

    This is not complicated, nor is it expensive. It does involve swallowing a certain amount of pride, but if these guys look in the mirror and are honest with themselves, they aren't getting it done with the current program. "Right sizing' the series in order to build it and grow it cant be any more embarrassing than seeing more aluminum at a track than in a bauxite mine. It just looks really foolish, and perception is reality in this world.

    There is a huge pool of talent and resources out there at the local level. I used to run modifieds in the northeast and the guys from Pratt and Whitney...smart engineers...loved to work with local guys and bring some really exotic stuff to the tracks. These were people designing and building jet engines. The really enjoyed getting back to the grass roots. There a thousands of others out there who would join in as well. They would bring talent, money, people, and sponsor dollars with them. That is a pretty good recipe for success in racing if you ask me.

  21. #21
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erock_in_Indy View Post
    Hey Hey TrackForum...

    Thank you for picking up on this article, and thank you even more for the positive words. The link has been fixed, I'm not sure how you knew where it was going to land... your kung-fu frightens me.
    Welcome aboard

    I appreciated your blog entry today.

    You know, though, there really are a lot of positive, secure, happy fans here. If it sometimes seems that there are not it may have more to do with the actual overall disposition of the fans in general.

    And maybe rightly so We're just a representative sample, if not exactly scientifically random

    I understand that we have that reputation, but in some ways it's unfair, and undeserved by some really good fans. And of course we are working on it.

    If you know of a better, more civil and reasonably large-sized forum for IndyCar out there, we are always appreciative of the good example.

    ps - it was nice to meet you at the "Social Media Garage" last May. Thanks for taking the time to talk to my granddaughter and I! (That was you, wasn't it?)
    Last edited by doitagain; 07-26-2012 at 09:11 PM.
    "Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
    ~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"


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  22. #22
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erock_in_Indy View Post
    @THE BEAR - Once again, this is the perfect example of what I was speaking of. "Relaunching Indy Car is a pretty straight forward process" OK,but how do we do it? "the current product is unlikely to recruit significant new fans." a possible valid point; how would you do it with no money, no cooperation from team owners, shaky promoters and permanent facilities that simply don't want us? It's easy to "point out" the "deficiencies" of the series when your not the one signing the checks.
    Yes, indeed, and a point that we raise with many members when they make similar declarations in exasperation

    I suspect the solution lies in making adjustments and balancing investments in product and promotion, over time: http://www.trackforum.com/forums/sho...duct-Promotion

    If there was one sweeping change that could help, though, and cost almost nothing, it would be to take a majority of the chronic energy expenditures on bitching and complaining about things we probably barely have a grasp of, and just use that energy simply telling a friend or two, here and there (or a few thousand right here ), how cool it is to hear engines scream, smell tires melting, and see the world's fastest oval racing drivers and machines on a nice pleasant day at a track or city street near you

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post

    I suspect the solution lies in making adjustments and balancing investments in product and promotion, over time:

    l:
    I want to be positive, so i will just ask how much more 'tweaking' are we going to do with something that hasn't worked well for years? Adjustments, balancing, and time have brought nary a new fan to the sport in years. Yes, we can quote some minor improvements here and there, but how can i take those numbers into a Board Room and ask for $5 million and still expect to work there at sundown? Once again, it is all about numbers and we have a formula where A does not equal B does not equal C.

  24. #24
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE BEAR View Post
    I want to be positive, so i will just ask how much more 'tweaking' are we going to do with something that hasn't worked well for years?
    Two-twenty, two-twenty-one.... whatever it takes

    how can i take those numbers into a Board Room and ask for $5 million and still expect to work there at sundown?
    Don't meet them in the boardroom, meet them here:



    or here:


  25. #25
    Waiting for the best
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    Just want to address something briefly. I'll expound on this in a later blog, but all the "cures" I read are REALLY underwhelming. "Up the hp, lower the df!" Great, I want that too. Won't get one casual fan interested. Even ifff you're breaking track records (on ovals like Indy this makes me nervous), I think the American fan has moved beyond raw speed. NASCAR isn't the fastest series; it is the most popular.

    Fix the ladder! Great, how?

    Reduce costs! One, how much? Two, what will you end up with? Three, how does any of this bring in a ton of fans?

    More at a later date, but maybe we ought to except we are what we are and that the split+NASCAR's rise caused this to be permanent.
    IndyCar '13: TV Ratings stink. The product does not. How about we enjoy it?

  26. #26
    There is no substitute. Spike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Two-twenty, two-twenty-one.... whatever it takes...


  27. #27

    Re: Road to Indy – Over the past few years I have watchedHildebrand, Hinchcliffe, Newgarden, Kimball and de Silvestro all come throughthe ladder system. Sure, this year is veryslim but there is good news on the horizon in 2014 in the shape of newlights chassis… a test bed for the big boys? Currently, USF200 and Star Mazdaare filled with young hot shoes chomping at the bit to make a grand entrance; it’sjust a matter of time. Indy Lights is dying but that doesn’t mean the ladder can’tbe ratcheted up a rung or that light is dead. The stories and young drivers arethere and the competition is fierce if you choose to follow.

    Re: DW12 – in this day and age, our race machines must be constructed with high-strength,low weight composites. That, in of itself, dashes all but the wealthiest garagemechanics dreams of building an Indy winning machine. We had 3 seriouscomposite shops bidding on the 2012 chassis: Swift, Lola and Dallara. They allneeded sole ownership of the chassis contract to make it economically feasible tocompete in the series. There was never going to be multiple manufactures fromthe get go. It takes pure bank account horsepower to run a constructor seriesthat does what we do. We will never have the 50-200 million dollar budgetsfound in F1.

    The DW12 is a competent platform to begin a five yeardevelopment cycle. During qualifying at Indianapolis, the engines were makingin the neighborhood of 575-585 horses and turned a pole speed of 226.484. Arieturned his 236.9 with almost 400 more horsepower, is that not innovation?? Adda few more horses from the engines after a six month off season of developmentand see what they can do!

    Re: schedule – Without getting drawn into a long debateabout history on ovals vs. road, the schedule must be at least 50/50. Where arethese under one mile long tracks that aren’t controlled by SMI/ISC, don’t havea no compete clause (PPIR, Nazareth), have SAFER barriers installed, and whose constructionis compliant to receive the correct rating for indycar. Gateway: yes,Rockingham: doubtful. I can’t think of much else. We have made our bed with theoval track world and now have to claw our way out.

    @Turn 13 – As you know, I live on the twitter side. Believeme when I say: I can be just as bad, if not worse and that article was for themmore so than even for here. Yup, that was me in the Social Media Garage! That wasan awesome time connecting with so many cool fans. Thank you for coming by. I’mheaded to Grand Am on Friday and will be out at Mid-Ohio next Sunday… meltingrubber and screaming engines… not much else in life is better!!

  28. #28
    Insider ramberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Two-twenty, two-twenty-one.... whatever it takes



    Don't meet them in the boardroom, meet them here:



    or here:

    really awesome videos - thanks. The little boy with his ears covered is priceless - somebody really important should see this video....

  29. #29

  30. #30
    [QUOTE=Turn13;3112450]Two-twenty, two-twenty-one.... whatever it takes



    Don't meet them in the boardroom, meet them here:

    Once again, i am going to keep it positive, but jeez, people here need to stop being naive. You take someone to an event like that looking for $5million in sponsorship dollars, and the first thing they are going to ask is 'where are the people who are going to see my brand?"

    Its a cool vid for an already established gear-head fan, but for anyone else it conjures up 'omg, I hope no one sees me here, or asks where i was on Saturday afternoon.'

    "Two-twenty, two-twenty-one"...i don't get it...pls explain. TY

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