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Thread: Is the pace car to blame?

  1. #31
    Insider 11rowsof3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Capua View Post
    Where did that come from? Just reporting the facts don't really live and die with what paces the 500. However if Ford had been willing to keep supplying what they use to... Then like I said Chevy would have never been given a long term contract. Unless you are blaming Chevy's contract with the INDY 500 for bankrupting GM, you doing that?

    I put the wink smiley!!!!

    I was just messing with you, you know Ford vs. Chevy - those guys that get all uptight and start going political. Just fun.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    you're wrong regarding the Penske "Ford" Cosworth Indy Car (not F1) Engine...
    No, I'm not. The first use of the a Cosworth engine in an Indy car came about when Parnelli Jones adapted a Ford Cosworth DFV to run the USAC series in 1976. This involved downsizing the engine from 3 to 2.65 liters in displacement and, of course, adapting it to methanol fuel and turbocharging. Before too long Cosworth joined in on the development and labeled the variant as the DFX.

    Penske ran quite a few cars (McLaren, March and chassis of his own make) for many years powered by DFX engines. The DFX, by the way, was the engine Mario Illien and Paul Morgan were working on at Cosworth when they left (with the aid of Roger Penske) to form Ilmor. Their first engine was the Chevy Ilmor Indy V8 which first appeared in the 1986 Indy 500 in the back of a Penske March driven by Al Unser. No Penske Indy car ever ran a Cosworth engine later than the DFX.

    When, is it that are you suggesting Penske "labeled" his Cosworth as being a Ford?


    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    who cares about the spelling when you're still wrong on your point?
    Setting aside the fact that I'm not wrong, I should think a great many people care. For example, Patrick Morgan (Paul Morgan's son) is a member of this forum and I suspect he cares.

    How long do you suppose it would take for you, or someone else here, to (rightly) correct me if I posted something about AJ Foite and his three wins in the Indynaplis 500?
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  3. #33
    Registered User JohnMc's Avatar
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    I am one of those who care and I don't mind getting checked on my spelling when I mess up. Hey, I diserve it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    No, I'm not. The first use of the a Cosworth engine in an Indy car came about when Parnelli Jones adapted a Ford Cosworth DFV to run the USAC series in 1976. This involved downsizing the engine from 3 to 2.65 liters in displacement and, of course, adapting it to methanol fuel and turbocharging. Before too long Cosworth joined in on the development and labeled the variant as the DFX.

    Penske ran quite a few cars (McLaren, March and chassis of his own make) for many years powered by DFX engines. The DFX, by the way, was the engine Mario Illien and Paul Morgan were working on at Cosworth when they left (with the aid of Roger Penske) to form Ilmor. Their first engine was the Chevy Ilmor Indy V8 which first appeared in the 1986 Indy 500 in the back of a Penske March driven by Al Unser. No Penske Indy car ever ran a Cosworth engine later than the DFX.

    When, is it that are you suggesting Penske "labeled" his Cosworth as being a Ford?


    Setting aside the fact that I'm not wrong, I should think a great many people care. For example, Patrick Morgan (Paul Morgan's son) is a member of this forum and I suspect he cares.

    How long do you suppose it would take for you, or someone else here, to (rightly) correct me if I posted something about AJ Foite and his three wins in the Indynaplis 500?
    yes, you're wrong.

    the Indy engines were called "Cosworth". One year at Indy Penske badged his Cosworth engines as "Ford" as apart from anyone else. I don't recall the exact year but it was during Mears era (prolly urly 80s).

    You're welcome.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by 11rowsof3 View Post
    ....and they needed a government bailout too due to years of sucking at business. Ford did not.

    Pfft.

    Ford just decided to take their bailout a couple years earlier.
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  6. #36
    Insider Frank Capua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11rowsof3 View Post
    I put the wink smiley!!!!

    I was just messing with you, you know Ford vs. Chevy - those guys that get all uptight and start going political. Just fun.
    Sorry I made a wrong turn and spent some time lost in the CE forum today... I'm more mellow now. I just love the old girl we call IMS and she has needs.

    "Ride the Barrel and get pitted... So Pitted."



  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    yes, you're wrong.

    the Indy engines were called "Cosworth". One year at Indy Penske badged his Cosworth engines as "Ford" as apart from anyone else. I don't recall the exact year but it was during Mears era (prolly urly 80s).

    You're welcome.
    Spike has it mostly right, Larry and Chickie converted the DFV for Parnelli, but as far as the badging goes, I recall some few later DFX's with cam covers that said Ford on them, but don't remember whose cars they were in. RJC would know, he knows these things.

  8. #38
    Going to the USGP's at Indy, I remember how nasty sounding their AMG Mercedes safety cars were. Those things had torque for days. And their drivers always used that power to maintain a relatively high speed during cautions so the drivers could try to keep some heat in their tires. I know the slow speed of the pace car at Imola in 1994 was pointed to by some as one of many factors to examine in the aftermath of Senna's death. Accord Coupes just don't compare to those F1 beasts, but I guess marketing rules the day.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    yes, you're wrong.
    Again, no. I'm not.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    the Indy engines were called "Cosworth".
    Yes, and note that I didn't say otherwise in my previous post. The By the time of the DFX you most frequently saw the valve covers carrying only the Cosworth name. However, since the DFX was an adapted version of the DFV the valve covers were interchangeable. Some DFV valve covers had the Ford oval while others had the Ford name in block letters. Because the engines were, more or less the same engine, the valve covers were interchangeable. As such, you could (possibly) see an independently built DFX motor wearing a pair of DFV valve covers that said Ford. They were plentiful and available.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    One year at Indy Penske badged his Cosworth engines as "Ford" as apart from anyone else.
    Again, while it's possible (though highly unlikely) that a particular Penske car powered by a DFX engine somehow wound up with a pair of the earlier DFV valve covers (with the Ford name on them) it was not because Penske "labeled" or "badged" the engine "as apart from anyone else." He never did that. If you've got a photo that shows it, please post it.

    Likewise, I don't ever recall seeing a Penske car in the Mears era that bore the Ford logo anywhere on the car.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    I don't recall the exact year but it was during Mears era (prolly urly 80s).
    The reason you don't recall the year is because it never happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    You're welcome.
    Be careful not to break your arm while patting yourself on the back.


    By the way, here's a DFV with the Ford oval and another with the Ford name in block letters.








    And, finally, here's a DFV with the version of the same valve covers that featured the Cosworth name.



  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winfield View Post
    Spike has it mostly right...
    No, I got it all right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winfield View Post
    ...as far as the badging goes, I recall some few later DFX's with cam covers that said Ford on them, but don't remember whose cars they were in.
    Again, it was possible to bolt a pair of DFV valve covers onto a DFX.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by BSJracing View Post
    I'm surprised the pace car hasn't been recalled since it's been a GM product for way to long.
    Only if Tony George would have been recalled.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    No, I got it all right.

    Again, it was possible to bolt a pair of DFV valve covers onto a DFX.

    Well don't bet the farm Spike, he might have you on this one. I have no pictures to go by, but after thinking it about a little those cam covers may have been on a PC-10, now as to whether it was still a factory PC-10 or Casey's PC-10 (probably VDS engines) I don't recall. But don't be surprised if he finds a picture somewhere.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Their first engine was the Chevy Ilmor Indy V8 which first appeared in the 1986 Indy 500 in the back of a Penske March driven by Al Unser. No Penske Indy car ever ran a Cosworth engine later than the DFX.

    When, is it that are you suggesting Penske "labeled" his Cosworth as being a Ford?
    In 86 Al Unser drove a Penske Pc-15, not a Penske March.
    In 82, Penske called his referred to his Cosworths as Fords. It was annoying because it was the same engine everyone else ran but they called them Cosworths.
    Always glad to help.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winfield View Post
    Well don't bet the farm Spike, he might have you on this one. I have no pictures to go by, but after thinking it about a little those cam covers may have been on a PC-10, now as to whether it was still a factory PC-10 or Casey's PC-10 (probably VDS engines) I don't recall. But don't be surprised if he finds a picture somewhere.
    Once again, it was possible to bolt a pair of DFV valve covers onto a DFX. I've seen it done. Be that as it may, that doesn't tie back to post #15 and the claim that some big change came about as a result of Roger Penske having "labeled his Cosworth a "Ford." It was common practice to refer to the Cosworth DFV (and the DFX) as being "Ford Cosworths" well after Ford has ended their involvement with Cosworth and the DFV in F1.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by YellowShirtJohn View Post
    In 86 Al Unser drove a Penske Pc-15, not a Penske March.
    Yes, you are correct on that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winfield View Post
    Spike has it mostly right, Larry and Chickie converted the DFV for Parnelli, but as far as the badging goes, I recall some few later DFX's with cam covers that said Ford on them, but don't remember whose cars they were in. RJC would know, he knows these things.
    Penske, as I said.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winfield View Post
    I have no pictures to go by, but after thinking it about a little those cam covers may have been on a PC-10, now as to whether it was still a factory PC-10 or Casey's PC-10 (probably VDS engines) I don't recall.
    Speaking of the PC10 (one of my favorite cars) here's a link to a thread on Autosport.com that deals with the PC10. It has a tremendous group of in-period photos of a PC10 at Penske's facility taken by the master of the race car cutaway, Tony Matthews, when he was getting ready to do an illustration of the car. Super stuff.

    http://forums.autosport.com/topic/11...ke-pc10/page-2







  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11rowsof3 View Post
    I miss Ford being here for sure! Always classy (except for the 1979 and I refuse to post a pic of that dud... but let's face it - EVERYTHING was tacky in 1979) Usually white except in 1961 for the "Golden 500" and sadly red in 1994 (again, every show car was either yellow or red in 1994 and Ford caved to marketing). Boo!
    Nah, the 1979 Fox body Mustang was no dud, it was a vast improvement over the boats they slapped the Mustang name on in 1971-73, and the Mustang II. And starting around 1983, the underhood ponies began to increase after a long dark period. Love those 1961-63 T-birds!

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubyajay87 View Post
    Pfft.

    Ford just decided to take their bailout a couple years earlier.
    ...but their "bailout" was loans from commercial banks...pfft indeed.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boweimer View Post
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/billkoen...-the-indy-500/
    Recently I read an article on Forbes about Detroit and the Indy 500. The articles opinion is, manufactures are disinterested in the Indy 500 do too GM'S monopoly of the pace car since 1997. Is this really the case?
    Have to say it sucked when Infiniti was an engine builder/supplier and one of their cars couldn't pace the Race...

    Sorry, but in a lot of people's mind, GM = CRAP...
    Chicago Blackhawks done didn't do it again!

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    you're wrong regarding the Penske "Ford" Cosworth Indy Car (not F1) Engine... look it up. Until the 1 time Penske sponsorship, the Indy engines were known as "Cosworth". Penske labelled his engine "Ford".

    who cares about the spelling when you're still wrong on your point?
    Spike is correct that Ford's association with Cosworth predates their Indy engine. It would have been Ford's call to badge the engine; Penske couldn't just slap whatever name he wanted on there.

    And there is a certain lack of credibility that tends to shadow those who don't even bother to learn the correct spelling of what they're putting down. Otherwise it's one step away from the "no hahaha u r dum" school of internet debate.
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  22. #52
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    SF- if you look at the damned photos you can see the Indy engine is badged "Cosworth" and not "Ford". (half my original point that Spike self contradicted by posting the photo)

    -AND-

    Frankly, I don't care if Spike has a letter signed by Donald Davidson, Roger Penske, Henry Ford, the Webster Dictionary Racing Spell Check Editor, Sir Mazeppa Pompazoidi Cosworth hisself, Spike's mother and the Pope- it doesn't change the fact that Penske once badged his "Cosworth" as a "Ford" at Indy. And he was the only car owner that did it.

  23. #53
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    ,,,,,,,,just my memory of the newspapers, SF.

    Note that the photos do back me up that the Indy engines were "Cosworths" and not "Ford Cosworths".

    What were your memories of Indy prior to Chevy Illmor and the other manufacturers sponsoring engines in the 1980s?

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    ,,,,,,,,just my memory of the newspapers, SF.

    Note that the photos do back me up that the Indy engines were "Cosworths" and not "Ford Cosworths".

    What were your memories of Indy prior to Chevy Illmor and the other manufacturers sponsoring engines in the 1980s?
    Offy, Ford/Foyt, stock blocks, Cosworth/Ford-Cosworth (no Ford backing=no ubiquitous Cosworth DFV-based engines dominating F1 and Indy cars the 1970s and 1980s no matter what you call them). All of it irrelevant to the topic of the thread, which is about PACE CARS.
    Last edited by Sea Fury; 07-27-2014 at 10:08 PM.

  25. #55
    Reset your fuel,Go Go Go Z28's Avatar
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    This is a real question? The race draws less attention that ever. The pace used to be a big deal when the race was a bigger deal but now, the pace car announcement comes without any fanfare beyond the IMS website, nobody runs to the dealer to check one out, they don't sell any of them that you see and the performance of the car is no different than any other car of that model on the showroom floor.

    At this point IMS is lucky that Chevy is willing to print up the decals and supply the trucks for the track. I doubt any other manufacturer is going to see the benefit of supplying vehicles for a program that nobody even notices.
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  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Z28 View Post
    ...... I doubt any other manufacturer is going to see the benefit of supplying vehicles for a program that nobody even notices.
    The long term pace car supplier deal was supposedly set up years ago to provide tax benefits to both parties. Until something changes GM will be the only pace car supplier for both the 500 and the 400.


  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Z28 View Post
    This is a real question? The race draws less attention that ever. The pace used to be a big deal when the race was a bigger deal but now, the pace car announcement comes without any fanfare beyond the IMS website, nobody runs to the dealer to check one out
    That's because there's no surprise. It's always a Chevy. so it's like, well, what will the Camaro or Corvette paint job look like THIS year?

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    SF- if you look at the damned photos you can see the Indy engine is badged "Cosworth" and not "Ford".
    But not one of the "damned photos" shows an Indy engine wearing the Ford name.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    ...it doesn't change the fact that Penske once badged his "Cosworth" as a "Ford" at Indy. And he was the only car owner that did it.
    And it doesn't change the fact that you have not even one shred of evidence to back up your claim.

    Nothing.

  29. #59
    Besides, even if Penske did call it a Ford, the reason that engine existed was Ford. They bankrolled it. Once Cosworth brought them in to pay for their idea, it was part of the big 1960s Ford factory racing effort. No Ford money->No Cosworth DFV->No Cosworth Indy engine no matter what LowRyter thinks Penske might have called it. So if Penske did call it a "Ford" at one point, so what if he did? Ford's money, "Ford" engine. Yet LR seems to act like he thinks they were two wholly unrelated engines.
    Last edited by Sea Fury; 07-28-2014 at 10:01 PM.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Fury View Post
    You're the one that brought this whole stupid Cosworth thing up, so don't try and pin this on me by telling me I'M the one wallowing in your ********. You're just trying to cover your tracks because you forgot that Ford DID bankroll the Cosworth DFV (on which the Indy engine was based) to begin with.
    total bs. that was NEVER my point.

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