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Thread: Happy Birthday

  1. #121
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    You have a big history of rude Posts. Take things up with ChampCarStats when you think things are wrong.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Ferner View Post

    If you think my post was rude, I apologize sincerely - I wasn't meaning to be impolite. But posts #74 and #81 show that you have difficulties telling different types of racing cars apart, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. Nobody gets born with all the knowledge in the world, we all need to acquire it the hard way. Actually, that's the fun part of life: learning! Just keep an open mind, it's much more interesting that way.

    Everybody seems to like this thread, and that explicitly includes me, but it's also important to get things right, that's why we're trying to keep you honest. I earlier asked you what your criteria for inclusion in this thread were, and you said it was ChampCarStats, warts and all. Now you're beginning to ask that question, too: where do you draw a line? It's not an easy question, but I think it should be clear by now that those NASCAR races don't really belong. It's your thread, and you can do as you see fit, and I have no problem with Fireball Roberts being listed. But I have a problem with him being called an "Indy car driver", because frankly, it's BS. It would be nice if you'd changed that.

    I was wrong for saying that you were being rude with your posts. I know that you're doing it so that the correct information is presented and if I'm wrong on something, I'd like people to point it out to me so correct information can be presented.

  3. #123
    no longer a mere Hobbyist Michael Ferner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2 View Post
    You have a big history of rude Posts. Take things up with ChampCarStats when you think things are wrong.
    Why would I want to do that? As soon as I do, the guy will start advertizing the fact that I "contribute", and I will spend the rest of my days correcting all his mistakes, and telling him things he should've known before he started that site in the first place, just so that nobody can say "Well, over at ChampCarStats (where you contribute!!), it says so and so, and now you're telling me it ain't true" (I'm sure you in particular would be the first in line to do so). It'd be thousands of endless discussions just like the ones we just had here, and I'd still be at the mercy of the one person that has the code to enable editing. I've been down that road before, and it's not my idea of fun.

    The only results site I contribute to is http://www.oldracingcars.com/ - it is far less comprehensive than ChampCarStats, but for a reason: we do not simply copy other people's work and put it online, pronto, instead we try to understand what really happened. It's a (sometimes painfully) slow process, but it's the only way to go if you're concerned about quality, and we will not compromise. I cannot guarantee that there are no mistakes on that site (after all, we're still only humans, and there's a natural limit on research resources), but it's an open system, and I'm willing to discuss things that people think are not correct. Plus, there's a whole lot more "waiting in the wings", a lot of stuff that even ChampCarStats doesn't have. But it will be years before most of it can go online. I am, however, thinking about a "stop-gap" solution, that will allow publication of some basic data, like date, track, laps and top three finishers for about 50,000 races in my data base. That's still a lot of work before it will be ready, so don't expect to find a link here tomorrow.

  4. #124
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    Then do not complain about people here citing them then when you do not want to do anything about it.

  5. #125
    no longer a mere Hobbyist Michael Ferner's Avatar
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    :lol: So, it's my fault when people use inferior source material? Very funny :lol:

    Besides, why are YOU not doing anything about it??? You can be wonderfully rude, too.

  6. #126
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    I have no idea what is wrong or not, You as a Alleswisser does.

  7. #127
    no longer a mere Hobbyist Michael Ferner's Avatar
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    Don't be so modest. You may not know a thing about racing, or about me, but you definitely know a lot about envy.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Ferner View Post
    Don't be so modest. You may not know a thing about racing, or about me, but you definitely know a lot about envy.
    Nice try. I call it how I see it. Actually how we all see it.

  9. #129
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    One of the worst things about TF is the post-stalkers and their petty, one-sided feuds. Michael has his, Don Capps has his and I, briefly, had mine as well.

    And, RS2, careful with that "we all" as you most assuredly do not speak for me. Could we move on now?
    "Versions of a story that are more tidy, compact, and camera-ready should generally be viewed as historically suspect." - Jackson Landers

  10. #130
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    As far as ChampCarStats goes I want to say that they have done a remarkable job, it's a site I certainly enjoy and I use at least once a day if not more.

    That being said the decision to include the NASCAR Speedway Division as any kind of "IndyCar" race is simply an incorrect one in my opinion.
    "It's the only way, then they can all forget me. I got too noisy. Time to step back into the shadows" Eleven

  11. #131
    February 7

    Tee Linn (1907-1978)

    Linn was born William Francis Lynn, Jr. He changed his name to hide his racing career from his family. His only Indy car start was at Syracuse in 1933, where he finished 11th. He would then fail to qualify for the 1934 Indianapolis 500. Afterwards, he broke his shoulder in a racing crash and retired. Here he sits in his car:


  12. #132
    It always amazes me how you so-called "experts" never want to put in a "positive" effort to start one of these threads yourself. Are you afraid someone might correct you? Or would you just rather be an arrogant critic? Congratulations, instead of giving the correct information in a positive, friendly manor, you've made someone's otherwise enjoyable thread into your own personal p##sing match. You can now face the rest of your life knowing you were the one who was "right." With that & $2.00, you can now go buy a candy bar.

  13. #133
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    I choose 3 Musketeers, I expect I will have some change left over.

  14. #134
    Ryan isn't offended by the corrections from experts (no quotation marks necessary), so what's with people getting offended on his behalf?

  15. #135
    no longer a mere Hobbyist Michael Ferner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32deuce View Post
    It always amazes me how you so-called "experts" never want to put in a "positive" effort to start one of these threads yourself. Are you afraid someone might correct you? Or would you just rather be an arrogant critic? Congratulations, instead of giving the correct information in a positive, friendly manor, you've made someone's otherwise enjoyable thread into your own personal p##sing match. You can now face the rest of your life knowing you were the one who was "right." With that & $2.00, you can now go buy a candy bar.
    I expect transfering $2.00 overseas will be very expensive with charges, so I will accept them in an envelope; PM me for address.

  16. #136
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    Someone's going to pay me $2 and give me a candy bar! Cool. The two bucks alone is more than most racing writing pays nowadays, so it's appreciated, but a candy bar too? That makes it one of the best paying gigs
    Last edited by JThur1; 02-08-2017 at 07:45 PM.

  17. #137
    February 8:

    Comte George Raphael Bethenod de Montbressieux (1910-1994)

    Better known by his nickname "Raph", Raph drove various Grand Prix and sports car races in the 1930s. His only Indy car start was the 1936 Vanderbilt Cup, where he finished 42nd after being disqualified for receiving outside assistance. This is the lowest best finish for a driver in an Indy car race. He later entered the 1946 Indianapolis 500, but he never appeared. Here he competes in a Grand Prix race in 1938:



    Mike Magill (1920-2006)

    Magill was a regular driver during the later half of the 1950s after a successful sprint car career. Most of his starts came at Indianapolis and Langhorne (where he finished in the top 10 in each of his four starts). Here he is after qualifying for the 1958 Indianapolis 500, where he replaced Juan Manuel Fangio and finished 17th, 64 laps down, after spending over an hour getting his car repaired after the first lap crash:


  18. #138
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    I don't think the European contingent competing in the Vanderbilt Cup thought of it as an IndyCar race as it was the US idea of a "road" circuit. Anyway, weren't the US contingent using their dirt track cars rather than pavement cars?

    But as has been said before - It's your thread and your definition.
    Duncan Rollo

    The more you learn, the more you realise how little you know.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by 32deuce View Post
    It always amazes me how you so-called "experts" never want to put in a "positive" effort to start one of these threads yourself. Are you afraid someone might correct you? Or would you just rather be an arrogant critic? Congratulations, instead of giving the correct information in a positive, friendly manor, you've made someone's otherwise enjoyable thread into your own personal p##sing match. You can now face the rest of your life knowing you were the one who was "right." With that & $2.00, you can now go buy a candy bar.

    If there was ever a good reason to not recommend this forum and then to move on to much better uses of one's time, such as pursuing historical knowledge, this just might be the best one yet.
    And so we beat on, boats against the current, drawn back ceaselessly into the past ... F. Scott Fitzgerald
    Ever have the feeling that the rest of the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes? ... George Gobel

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Capps View Post
    If there was ever a good reason to not recommend this forum and then to move on to much better uses of one's time, such as pursuing historical knowledge, this just might be the best one yet.
    No, quite the opposite. There are some here who come off that they wish to run off anyone who can dispute their boastful "facts." When the knowledgeable leave, they've won and then "alternative facts" take over.

  21. #141
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    I was hoping to catch up on replies, but the thread has moved quickly while I was busy.

    Firstly, Rhino Ryan, I was going to explain to you the reason for passing along corrections, but Michael summed it up well in this post. I would add, don't be discouraged and especially don't feel the need to be defensive. Doing something like this can be very difficult. I speak from experience. My first attempt at a large project like this was done with far more enthusiasm than knowledge and I made what I now know are embarrassing mistakes. It happens. Again, don't be discouraged.

    I can't speak for Lotuspoweredbyford, but perhaps he didn't say anything about the NASCAR Speedway Division being included in Vic Mackey's Happy Birthday thread because he might have been busy at the time. It happens.

    FWIW, I too would not include the NASCAR Speedway Division. AAA, USAC, CART and IRL were considered "Championship" racing, the NASCAR Speedway Division was not, despite the editor of Champcarstats.com including them on his site.

  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotuspoweredbyford View Post
    As far as ChampCarStats goes I want to say that they have done a remarkable job, it's a site I certainly enjoy and I use at least once a day if not more.

    That being said the decision to include the NASCAR Speedway Division as any kind of "IndyCar" race is simply an incorrect one in my opinion.
    I concur completely on both counts. ChampCarStats and Racing Reference are wonderful sites and impressive efforts. But, as is always the case with such comprehensive efforts, there are plenty of mistakes (the worst at Racing Reference being having unmoderated comments, but I digress). The lack of accurate chronicling of racing has a lot to do with why it's so difficult. No one should accept what is published at these sites as absolute gospel, but more an ongoing work.

  23. #143
    no longer a mere Hobbyist Michael Ferner's Avatar
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    ^^ what he said!

    (Especially the part about not being discouraged)

  24. #144
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    The forum is nostalgia. It isn't peer reviewed racing history, it is mostly personal observation and golly gee did you know. The Capps and ferner"s are more to the point of fact not observation.

    Lets let people make observations and the fact masters just say well.... not that way.

    Just my two cents.

    I know what I saw and I know who I knew/was friends with...
    "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved
    body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting
    "...holy $^!+...what a ride!"
    >

  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by JThur1 View Post
    I concur completely on both counts. ChampCarStats and Racing Reference are wonderful sites and impressive efforts. But, as is always the case with such comprehensive efforts, there are plenty of mistakes (the worst at Racing Reference being having unmoderated comments, but I digress). The lack of accurate chronicling of racing has a lot to do with why it's so difficult. No one should accept what is published at these sites as absolute gospel, but more an ongoing work.
    I had a really positive conversation with the leader of Champ Car Stats yesterday.

    We had a frank discussion on the NASCAR Speedway division. While I totally disagree with the use of those stats on the site, it's not my site. We agreed to disagree but had a really positive dialogue.

    And as I mentioned previously it's a great site with a lot of original research.

    In my new world I also hope to be able to contribute more to the research.

  26. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by JThur1 View Post
    FWIW, I too would not include the NASCAR Speedway Division. AAA, USAC, CART and IRL were considered "Championship" racing, the NASCAR Speedway Division was not, despite the editor of Champcarstats.com including them on his site.
    Yeah I think there are so many reasons they shouldn't be included, not the least of which this one.

    Please get a hold of me my friend. I have a research/project idea I want to run past you.

  27. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by JThur1 View Post
    No, quite the opposite. There are some here who come off that they wish to run off anyone who can dispute their boastful "facts." When the knowledgeable leave, they've won and then "alternative facts" take over.
    Totally agree.

  28. #148
    February 9:

    Arthur Duray (1882-1954)

    Duray was a Belgium driver (who held French citizenship) who set the land speed record three times between 1903 and 1904. His Indy car career started off with a 2nd at the 1914 Indianapolis 500. He also competed in two races at Uniontown in 1918, finishing 9th and 4th. Here he sits in his 500 car:



    Jack Curtner (1893-1959)

    Curtner started two races in 1922, finishing 14th at Indianapolis and 8th at Uniontown. Here he is after qualifying for the 500 (it's the best picture that I could find):



    Albert Karnatz (1905-1934)

    Karnatz won several races in the Detroit area. He also started three Indy car races and finished in the top 5 in two of them (3rd at Bridgeville and 5th at Akron, both in 1930). He would be killed at a race in Detroit in 1934 when a tire blew. Here he sits in the car that he drove in the 1929 Indianapolis 500, where he finished 25th:



    Jan Opperman (1939-1997)

    Opperman drove and won in various sprint car series, making him one of the first outlaw drivers. He was also the winner of the 1971 Knoxville Nationals. He would then start to focus on the various divisions of USAC. During this time, he started nine Indy races and seemed to be coming into his own in these cars and got a best finish of 6th at the 1976 California 500. However, less than a week later, he was injured in a crash at the Hoosier Hundred. He would return to racing in 1978, but was not as competitive as he had been. He would also fail to qualify at the 1979 Indianapolis 500. Here he is after qualifying for the 1974 500, where he finished 21st:



    Airton Dare (39)

    Dare was the 2000 Indy Racing League Rookie of the Year. He would win at Kansas in 2002, giving A.J. Foyt his final win as an owner until 2013. However, after the 2002 season, he only started two other races. Here he is battling with Sam Hornish, Jr. on his way to his win:



    Joel Camathias (36)

    Camathias drove in the first seven Champ Car races of 2003. He was sponsored by his hometown of Lugano, Switzerland. His best finish was a 9th in his debut at St. Petersburg. He currently races sports cars in Europe. Here he is in the pit lane at Brands Hatch, where he finished 13th:


  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman J Crump View Post
    Ryan isn't offended by the corrections from experts (no quotation marks necessary), so what's with people getting offended on his behalf?
    Norman, that happens quite a bit around here (see thread "Worst In Cup 1986-2016" in the NASCAR forum for a recent example). I can't help but think it's some sort of deep-seated issue that gets taken out on Michael, Don and myself. Either that or some sort of misguided "sticking up" for someone that isn't having a problem with it. I've asked about this before here, but rather than have an open dialogue, the posters skulk back into the shadows until the next round of potshots and chippy comments

  30. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotuspoweredbyford View Post
    I had a really positive conversation with the leader of Champ Car Stats yesterday.

    We had a frank discussion on the NASCAR Speedway division. While I totally disagree with the use of those stats on the site, it's not my site. We agreed to disagree but had a really positive dialogue.

    And as I mentioned previously it's a great site with a lot of original research.

    In my new world I also hope to be able to contribute more to the research.
    I contributed a huge amount to Racing Reference (which originally was for the next edition of "The Stock Car Racing Encyclopedia", but that's for another post), but not Champ Car Stats. That's solely due to time constraints and because I knew of other folks who were contributing solid information there. I know the fellow that ran Racing Reference was conscientious and heard good things about the fellow behind Champ Car Stats as well I'd love to be able to contribute there and to some other worthy sites as well.

    (Sigh) If I only had the time...

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