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Thread: IndyCar falls short in bid to lure third engine manufacturer

  1. #61
    Insider MoparsRule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Love May View Post
    This hits the nail on the head. Who would sign up for this single spec when the two incumbents have such a headstart and the rules are restrictive to the point of absurdity? The answer = Nobody.
    But with these rules and the engine spec as it is no manufacture would have too difficult of a time to make a competitive engine.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by BADGER View Post
    Be honest and ask yourself if you were one of those who thought losing aerokits was worth it if it meant the addition of a new manufacturer?

    Loss of the aerokits, no third manufacturer, as Homer would say, "this is going great".
    Yeah, I did. I like the engine competition more than aero competition. Rather have different chassis builders instead, but barring that, I thought it would be better to have a good looking car with 3 different engines competing. Should have known better. Hopefully it's the last time I am overzealously optimistic about things that aren't official, but I'm sure something else will get me.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Since83 View Post
    At some point, maybe Indy just becomes a single race series.
    How can Indy survive as a one off race? There is not enough ROI. The only way Indy could survive as a one off would be if they totally dumbed down the spec. If they do that they will loose the fan base.

  5. #65
    Insider MoparsRule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    But those are all kind of slow and heavy.
    And perfect for natural terrain road courses.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
    How can Indy survive as a one off race? There is not enough ROI. The only way Indy could survive as a one off would be if they totally dumbed down the spec. If they do that they will loose the fan base.
    They'd have to open up the rules considerably. LeMans has been a standalone race at times in its history but the rules were open enough that regulars from various sports car circuits entered plus a few crazy one-off LeMans entries.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
    How can Indy survive as a one off race? There is not enough ROI. The only way Indy could survive as a one off would be if they totally dumbed down the spec. If they do that they will loose the fan base.
    I know Indy went to a so-called "junk formula" during the depression.
    But I'm not knowledgeable how that related to fan interest going forward.


    I thought this part of the Wikipedia entry was interesting:

    "Speedway president Eddie Rickenbacker had decided to make the changes in order to lure back the passenger car manufacturers, and make the cars on the track resemble more those sold to the motoring public. Rickenbacker's desire was to move away from the supercharged, specialized racing machines that had taken over the Speedway through the 1920s."
    You used to need 750hp to win the Indy 500, now you get that much in a Corvette and you get a factory warranty....Jay Leno

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by shrm View Post
    They'd have to open up the rules considerably. LeMans has been a standalone race at times in its history but the rules were open enough that regulars from various sports car circuits entered plus a few crazy one-off LeMans entries.
    And I would argue that Indy has been a quasi-stand alone race for much of it's history as well. Yes, there was the AAA and USAC championships, but honestly those were pretty insignificant compared to Indy, and as much as anything else were a way for drivers to get a paycheck between 500s. In my opinion, it wasn't until CART really got going on the late 80s and 90s that there was a series that had a great deal of importance and interest on its own. Some of the most well known and legendary Indy cars and teams never raced anywhere else.

    Furthermore, I would say that 90+% of the ROI in the series IS from the 500. In some cases, it probably would be a positive to the ROI equation since most of the R comes from participating in the 500, while there is a lot of I for all the rounds not many care about. If they had to (or could) choice, I think that most engine manufacturers and sponsors would choose Indy over the rest of the schedule. In fact, they already did- in 2000-2002. Every major sponsor, manufacturer (save one), and team left what was probably a stronger series on balance to be able to compete at Indy.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by shrm View Post
    They'd have to open up the rules considerably. LeMans has been a standalone race at times in its history but the rules were open enough that regulars from various sports car circuits entered plus a few crazy one-off LeMans entries.
    Le Mans has the advantage that long-endurance road racing is pretty well suited to multiclass racing and amateur enthusiast participants, IMO. I could be wrong, but I don't think an Indy 500 with the equivalent of most Le Mans fields would be well received. This year with five LMP1 hybrids isn't unusual; there have been years with GT40s and modified Minis or Spitfires in the same field. Something like that at Indy, with a slow second-rate class circulating around the apron, would just look dumb.
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  10. #70
    a REAL IndyCar Fan Racing Steward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Paff View Post
    Engines and Chassis do not sell tickets IMO
    100% agreed. Just don't tell that to TrackForum. Many of its members are still living in the 70s and 80s.
    Whatever the right thing to do is.....expect IndyCar to do the opposite.
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  11. #71
    The word I hear is Indycar has given up on a third engine manufacturer and is now trying for a fourth one.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by atrackforumfan View Post
    <snip>
    Something like that at Indy, with a slow second-rate class circulating around the apron, would just look dumb.
    They could have their own pack race, tho...

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by atrackforumfan View Post
    Le Mans has the advantage that long-endurance road racing is pretty well suited to multiclass racing and amateur enthusiast participants, IMO. I could be wrong, but I don't think an Indy 500 with the equivalent of most Le Mans fields would be well received. This year with five LMP1 hybrids isn't unusual; there have been years with GT40s and modified Minis or Spitfires in the same field. Something like that at Indy, with a slow second-rate class circulating around the apron, would just look dumb.
    The Le Mans solution is like having an Indy500 filled with Indycars, Indy Lights and USF2000's. That's not going to happen simply from a safety standpoint.

    I would expect a 'Le Mans solution' for the Indy 500 more to look like a combination of everyone running current and previous generation indycars, with one or two OEMS supporting a couple of teams and the remainder of the grid looking for power from old indycar engines, lmp engines, crate engines etc. But whatever they bring it will be high powered.

    This years indy had the top 27 cars within 5 mph during the first qualifying. I would expect to have in this "run what you bring"" version to have anyone outside of top 20 to be at least 10 to 15 mph slower. Like it was in the early 90's.

  14. #74
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    Who is going to race then at Road America and Watkins Glen and Barber and all the other great tracks of America?
    The same series that have been racing there for the past 40 years. Ones that don't exist solely on TV and sponsor revenue. Series that don't soak the promoters for several million dollars per race. Those tracks all actually do quite well and stay booked with track rentals, local and SCCA racing that pay to race there. Ovals don't have that ability to draw that same use, which is largely why you have seen infield road courses added to so many in the past couple of years. Those events akeep the doors open.

  15. #75
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
    How can Indy survive as a one off race? There is not enough ROI. The only way Indy could survive as a one off would be if they totally dumbed down the spec. If they do that they will loose the fan base.
    It's the event, not the series. Are you telling me every one of the attendees is a fan of the Indycar series? The TV ratings every week say otherwise. As many people ATTEND Indy as watch some races after the 500. The 500 has already become just like the triple crown races. You have the industry folks, the addicted gamblers watching simulcasts and a few hundred watching live racing at most tracks on a regular basis and a few thousand at larger races here and there. They could trot out 20 random 3 year olds for the Derby and no one would care and honestly most wouldn't know the difference as long as Bob Baffert and a few key jockeys show up. As long as the weather is good, the crowd is good.

  16. #76
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
    How can Indy survive as a one off race? There is not enough ROI. The only way Indy could survive as a one off would be if they totally dumbed down the spec. If they do that they will loose the fan base.
    Hate to tell you, they dumbed down the spec 20 years ago.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by MoparsRule View Post
    But with these rules and the engine spec as it is no manufacture would have too difficult of a time to make a competitive engine.
    Honda and Chevy would change the formula to get a 3rd manufacturer to come in.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by David_Skywalker View Post
    LMAO

    The aero kits died for this!
    The Aero Kits died because the two manufacturers spent more than $100 million on them and got NOTHING for it.

  19. #79
    Insider mdkiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_Skywalker View Post
    LMAO

    The aero kits died for this!
    Wait a minute. Aerokits have been b1tched into submission from the first released photo and now we're going to mourn their loss?
    "George Bignott's Sinmast Wildcat; delicately built, carefully prepared and boldly driven by Gordon Johncock." -- Keith Jackson

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenderless View Post
    The word I hear is Indycar has given up on a third engine manufacturer and is now trying for a fourth one.
    they haven't had much luck w/ a 3rd, maybe looking for a fourth is the way to go

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdkiel View Post
    Wait a minute. Aerokits have been b1tched into submission from the first released photo and now we're going to mourn their loss?

    this

    we lost nothing

  22. #82
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    Love the new cars. Can't wait to see them in action.

    Not so keen on the engines...ooops, power units.

    Stock blocks. If it fits in the chassis, it's yours to use. Normally aspirated, turbos, twin turbos, hybrids...turn those minds loose. Four cyliners, five, six, eight, ten, twelve...how about a turbo Rambler six?
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  23. #83
    Insider BADGER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdkiel View Post
    Wait a minute. Aerokits have been b1tched into submission from the first released photo and now we're going to mourn their loss?
    They were never bitched by me. They added more interest among the fans as witnessed by multi page threads when they were introduced. Now we can go back to talking about who is styling the new spec kit or what sneakers the various drivers wear.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Since83 View Post
    I am not sure there is a knot anymore. At some point, maybe Indy just becomes a single race series.
    Doubtful!
    Get your head out of your past!!!

  25. #85
    Insider BADGER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullwinkle View Post
    The Aero Kits died because the two manufacturers spent more than $100 million on them and got NOTHING for it.
    This is such a false narrative. First, the dollar amount seems high, and I doubt it exceeded the money spent on engines. If money spent on aero showed no return, then the same can be said on the engine competition. Might as well go spec engines since engine competition doesn't move the needle.

    You never liked the kits because as a Honda fan, the Chevy kits were far superior.

    Instead of bringing lots of talented engineering talent into the series to work on things like aero kits, those engineers will work in other series where spec isn't the answer to every question.

  26. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by mdkiel View Post
    Wait a minute. Aerokits have been b1tched into submission from the first released photo and now we're going to mourn their loss?
    Nothing to mourn of course. A few of us are yelling 'told ya so' .
    RIP Justin! WWJCD

  27. #87
    Insider BADGER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Grigson View Post
    Nothing to mourn of course. A few of us are yelling 'told ya so' .
    Because single make formula racing has shown to be successful time and time again.

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Under_Pressure View Post
    And I would argue that Indy has been a quasi-stand alone race for much of it's history as well. Yes, there was the AAA and USAC championships, but honestly those were pretty insignificant compared to Indy, and as much as anything else were a way for drivers to get a paycheck between 500s. In my opinion, it wasn't until CART really got going on the late 80s and 90s that there was a series that had a great deal of importance and interest on its own. Some of the most well known and legendary Indy cars and teams never raced anywhere else.

    Furthermore, I would say that 90+% of the ROI in the series IS from the 500. In some cases, it probably would be a positive to the ROI equation since most of the R comes from participating in the 500, while there is a lot of I for all the rounds not many care about. If they had to (or could) choice, I think that most engine manufacturers and sponsors would choose Indy over the rest of the schedule. In fact, they already did- in 2000-2002. Every major sponsor, manufacturer (save one), and team left what was probably a stronger series on balance to be able to compete at Indy.
    This is certainly true in regards to the history of the 500 and the series. It is entirely Indy-centric and always has been. I do wonder if the event could survive as a standalone spectacle and I think it could in an open rulebook, go for the track record every year form. Not in the managed competition, spec everything environment we have now.
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  29. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Since83 View Post
    I am not sure there is a knot anymore. At some point, maybe Indy just becomes a single race series. I stumbled across the 1997 CART Gateway race on Youtube. There were more people in the stands at that one place (of all places - Gateway) than 3 or 4 current Indycar events combined. It all spun out of control so long ago.
    Very, very true. Its a 20 year problem.

  30. #90
    Registered User gnome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamski View Post

    Stock blocks. If it fits in the chassis, it's yours to use. Normally aspirated, turbos, twin turbos, hybrids...turn those minds loose. Four cyliners, five, six, eight, ten, twelve...how about a turbo Rambler six?
    wankel rotary engine

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