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Thread: IndyCar falls short in bid to lure third engine manufacturer

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by remington870 View Post
    The person usually trying to run the show is the truckdriver.
    Honda had been flying Trevor Anthony in from LA to be the emcee...an actor who's been on Modern Family, Grey's Anatomy, etc...so I am unsure what your comment is supposed to mean.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Esteban1 View Post
    If they are cutting back on something like the fan zone, what are the chances Honda is going to exit ICS altogether after their contract expires?
    They just signed an extension like 3 months ago, so I'm not too worried about that yet.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by sejarzo View Post
    Honda had been flying Trevor Anthony in from LA to be the emcee...an actor who's been on Modern Family, Grey's Anatomy, etc...so I am unsure what your comment is supposed to mean.
    I was describing how other series and other manufacturer fan zones operated in my experiences. Not much ROI. Not surprised they're pulling the plug.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esteban1 View Post
    If they are cutting back on something like the fan zone, what are the chances Honda is going to exit ICS altogether after their contract expires?
    Chevrolet and Honda each sell in the range of 2m vehicles per year in NA. While the cost of the Indycar program isn't trivial, when you have a denominator of that size, the marketing cost per sale is trivial. So these kind of deals have some staying power I'd think, and since the Indy 500 is the only marketing thing of significance, Honda winning 3 of the last 4 doesn't hurt either.
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Fury View Post
    Maybe Honda is reallocating funds to pour into fixing that embarrassing F1 engine program...
    Honda spends more money in a month on the F1 program than it does on the Indycar program in an entire season. It's not a rounding error, but it's more than an order of magnitude.

    Hell, Honda pays Alonso more than it spends on the Indycar program.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by remington870 View Post
    From my experiences at these, the manufacturers are getting fleeced from Day 1.
    Small Indiana marketing firms suck up to the manufacturers. The firm's owner gets rich. They use cheap local labor and free "interns". The person usually trying to run the show is the truckdriver.
    THIS^^^^^^^

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by nascarnation View Post
    Perhaps that hasn't been fully realized yet. Is it possible the mfgrs are having to subsidize the costs of replacing all these expensive carbon fiber flapperdoodles on a weekly basis?
    The engine manufacturers are effectively paying for the new universal aerokits. Indycar is not. The teams are paying for the new parts, but not for the design and development work.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by nascarnation View Post
    Interesting...that was a very cool deal and I can't imagine it cost very much, unless they were paying Mario big dollars. I think the 2-seater is at the races for major domo rides anyway.
    Mario (or Arie) and the car are still there before the races. The "joe fan" contest is gone. The current second seat people are "dignitaries" or "celebrities" of some kind.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Esteban1 View Post
    If they are cutting back on something like the fan zone, what are the chances Honda is going to exit ICS altogether after their contract expires?
    NONE. Unless a third manufacturer appears, development costs are more or less known and everyone is relatively happy. Both Chevy and Honda are in this for the long term. Although there is a small chance there may be some smallish changes in the Chevy program.

    They will be happier when more races are on bigger networks, and when new media delivery programs get off the ground.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by nascarnation View Post
    Chevrolet and Honda each sell in the range of 2m vehicles per year in NA. While the cost of the Indycar program isn't trivial, when you have a denominator of that size, the marketing cost per sale is trivial. So these kind of deals have some staying power I'd think, and since the Indy 500 is the only marketing thing of significance, Honda winning 3 of the last 4 doesn't hurt either.
    I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

    Excluding aerokits, GM spends more on the Corvette sports car program than it spends on Indycar. And they have several other factory sports car programs.

    Same for Honda. Developing the NSX GT3 and entering the GRC were not trivial expenses for HPD. The Pikes peak thing is not trivial. The upcoming TCR Civic will be somewhat more trivial.

    For both GM and Honda, Indycar (without aerokits) is a relative bargain.

  11. #131
    Sorry for the flurry of posts. I was in a marketing event all day. Not sure what the ROI was.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullwinkle View Post
    I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

    Excluding aerokits, GM spends more on the Corvette sports car program than it spends on Indycar. And they have several other factory sports car programs.

    Same for Honda. Developing the NSX GT3 and entering the GRC were not trivial expenses for HPD. The Pikes peak thing is not trivial. The upcoming TCR Civic will be somewhat more trivial.

    For both GM and Honda, Indycar (without aerokits) is a relative bargain.
    One can have an engine program for Indycar for less than what it takes to sponsor Dale Jr. for an entire year in Cup.

  13. #133
    Its a bargain and they still feel the need to cutback on the at track activation. What does that tell you? The attendance is a real issue and the exposure is minimal. Not enough fans thru the turnstiles. I don't recall ever seeing such a traveling Honda circus at Indianapolis. Just the big Chevrolet display and traditional free t shirts for your contact information.
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  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullwinkle View Post
    I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

    Excluding aerokits, GM spends more on the Corvette sports car program than it spends on Indycar. And they have several other factory sports car programs.

    Same for Honda. Developing the NSX GT3 and entering the GRC were not trivial expenses for HPD. The Pikes peak thing is not trivial. The upcoming TCR Civic will be somewhat more trivial.

    For both GM and Honda, Indycar (without aerokits) is a relative bargain.
    Le Mans alone probably has bigger global viewing numbers than the entire IndyCar season when Alonso isn't around. But I would severely question that claim anyways, Corvette Racing is running on a fraction of the budget it once had and seems pretty thin on funding in general. Same engine for an eternity and minimal investment in chassis development or manufacturing. At one time they built at least 3-4 cars every year with major changes. Now they build 3 cars in an entire generation and only do the bare minimum to adapt to new regulations.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by nascarnation View Post
    Perhaps that hasn't been fully realized yet. Is it possible the mfgrs are having to subsidize the costs of replacing all these expensive carbon fiber flapperdoodles on a weekly basis?
    If you believe one of the latest Robin Miller articles at Racer, then no:

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Miller
    So besides Will Power, the real winners on Saturday night were Dallara, Xtrac, Aerodine Composites, Cosworth, Honda and Chevrolet because they will sell all the replacement parts to the IndyCar teams.
    ...
    Honda and Chevy sell sidepods, end plates and wheel guards – basically the aero kit is $80,000 if bought complete but more expensive if pieced together.
    Link

    The economics of the Aero kits have never been clear to the average onlooker (and perhaps even to the insider). But the quotes in the article I linked lead you to believe that Honda and Chevrolet are indeed making money selling replacement parts to the teams. Likely helped by the fact that the kits are frozen and there are no more additional R&D costs being undertaken by the manufacturers.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikemat5150 View Post
    One can have an engine program for Indycar for less than what it takes to sponsor Dale Jr. for an entire year in Cup.
    and get but a small fraction of the return as well.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Love May View Post
    Its a bargain and they still feel the need to cutback on the at track activation. What does that tell you? The attendance is a real issue and the exposure is minimal. Not enough fans thru the turnstiles. I don't recall ever seeing such a traveling Honda circus at Indianapolis. Just the big Chevrolet display and traditional free t shirts for your contact information.
    I thought I remembered the Honda stuff being over in the parking lot near Turn 2 one year with the big Indycar tent and the Chevy area was over near the end of Hulman BLVD.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    and get but a small fraction of the return as well.
    There is more than one way to get a return on investment other than number of eyeballs.

  19. #139
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    I'd bet they likely sell more Chevy's due to Dale Jr driving a Chevy in NASCAR than all of Indycar.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    If you believe one of the latest Robin Miller articles at Racer, then no:



    Link

    The economics of the Aero kits have never been clear to the average onlooker (and perhaps even to the insider). But the quotes in the article I linked lead you to believe that Honda and Chevrolet are indeed making money selling replacement parts to the teams. Likely helped by the fact that the kits are frozen and there are no more additional R&D costs being undertaken by the manufacturers.
    Perhaps a better way to characterize this is that profits on replacement parts help to offset the total costs of the programs for the engine suppliers.

  21. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    and get but a small fraction of the return as well.
    Absolutely the case. Outside of Memorial Day weekend the exposure is extremely minimal.

  22. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    I thought I remembered the Honda stuff being over in the parking lot near Turn 2 one year with the big Indycar tent and the Chevy area was over near the end of Hulman BLVD.
    You might be right. Chevrolet was setup in the Museum lot until a few years ago when it was relocated to the area off Hulman Blvd adjacent to the merchandise trailers and vendor area. Didn't make it over to the Museum area the past few years so perhaps that is where it was located. I do remember it at Pocono in 2015 which is the only other race I've attended other than Indianapolis the last few years.

  23. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by nascarnation View Post
    Perhaps a better way to characterize this is that profits on replacement parts help to offset the total costs of the programs for the engine suppliers.
    Agreed.

  24. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Love May View Post
    You might be right. Chevrolet was setup in the Museum lot until a few years ago when it was relocated to the area off Hulman Blvd adjacent to the merchandise trailers and vendor area. Didn't make it over to the Museum area the past few years so perhaps that is where it was located. I do remember it at Pocono in 2015 which is the only other race I've attended other than Indianapolis the last few years.
    Chevy had a tent at Pocono last year as well. They had simulators running iRacing, and when we left due to the washout on Sunday, I had the fastest laps on both of 'em
    Don't think there was something similar for Honda though, at least I can't recall.

  25. #145
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    The one at IMS MotoGP had everything from SUVs and Gold Wings to dirt bikes, gen sets, and lawn equipment.
    It was a "soft sell" situation, similar to an auto show.

  26. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    If you believe one of the latest Robin Miller articles at Racer, then no:



    Link

    The economics of the Aero kits have never been clear to the average onlooker (and perhaps even to the insider). But the quotes in the article I linked lead you to believe that Honda and Chevrolet are indeed making money selling replacement parts to the teams. Likely helped by the fact that the kits are frozen and there are no more additional R&D costs being undertaken by the manufacturers.
    Other than Robin's generalization about who benefits from crashes (people who sell parts), you can't draw any conclusions from that article about whether Chevy and Honda make money selling crash parts.
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  27. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by I Love May View Post
    Its a bargain and they still feel the need to cutback on the at track activation. What does that tell you? The attendance is a real issue and the exposure is minimal. Not enough fans thru the turnstiles. I don't recall ever seeing such a traveling Honda circus at Indianapolis. Just the big Chevrolet display and traditional free t shirts for your contact information.
    The Honda Fan Zone was mostly at Honda tracks. Road America, Indy etc. have ties to Chevy.

    Honda's activation at the track isn't bringing anyone to the track to begin with.

  28. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Blood-1 View Post
    Le Mans alone probably has bigger global viewing numbers than the entire IndyCar season when Alonso isn't around. But I would severely question that claim anyways, Corvette Racing is running on a fraction of the budget it once had and seems pretty thin on funding in general. Same engine for an eternity and minimal investment in chassis development or manufacturing. At one time they built at least 3-4 cars every year with major changes. Now they build 3 cars in an entire generation and only do the bare minimum to adapt to new regulations.
    You ignore how much Pratt & Miller spends on aero and suspension development in IMSA (money that Chevy does not spend in Indycar). And rumor is GM spent more money on the Cadillac DPI program this season than on Indycar. Development, especially aero, costs money.

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    I'd bet they likely sell more Chevy's due to Dale Jr driving a Chevy in NASCAR than all of Indycar.
    the fact that people think that the old rule of "win on sunday, sell on Monday" still applies is a joke. I have literally never once met a single fan at a race track, and I have been going to tracks (nascar, WOO, IRL, CART, Drag strips) since 1997, have never once met a fan who said "whatever wins today is what i'll buy" now I know maybe 1 out of ever 200 people AT THE race track might think like that, and for the casual fan, not a chance anymore.

    having said that, there are loyal people. so people who are loyal to dale jr, and if he switched to a ford, yes plenty of people would do that. so the advertising aspect yes, but the racing aspect of winning and selling hasn't applied for a very long time
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  30. #150
    Very true indeed. I have been going to all sorts of races since the 1980s and cant say I've ever met anyone who falls into the "Win on Sunday, buy on Monday" demographic. I'm sure they exist but are very small in number. Add to it that the vast majority of the buying public doesn't pay any attention to motorsports whatsoever and you can see that it has very little impact. Most people at Indianapolis were in the Chevrolet area to snag a free t-shirt as opposed to looking at what they might choose to test drive on their next visit to a dealer.

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