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Thread: IndyCar falls short in bid to lure third engine manufacturer

  1. #241
    Registered User andy5446's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racing Steward View Post
    Yeah I couldn't help but notice all of these manufacturers lining up to build their own IndyCars the last several years.
    you talking about these last several years that you tell us all that the racing is better than ever every week? because all the people you readily dismiss could tell you that parity means nothing. nothing to prospective new fans, and absolutely nothing to a manufacturer hoping to prove something.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by nascarnation View Post
    I suppose Lotus was the poster child for that outcome, but the question is did it really hurt them as a brand? Other than p*ssing away a bunch of money....

    If this oft-mentioned Cosworth Indycar engine is just sitting on the shelf waiting for a sugar daddy to CNC mill their name on the cam covers, I'd think the risk level is pretty low. OTOH anybody starting from scratch is going to spend a lot of time and money as Ilmor and HPD have been developing to this spec for nearly a decade now.
    This is why I think it is more likely than not that if a manufacturer does indicate interest, Indycar would go to a NEW or HEAVILY REVISED formula so that the three competitors would be on a more even footing.

    Say Mercedes shows an interest (and I have no knowledge that this is the case). Then the three of them would come up with a significant revision to the existing formula or a new formula.

    Examples of a significant revision would be a change that causes HPD and Ilmor to go back to the drawing board with the existing blocks:

    * New Turbo tech. Maybe one turbo instead of two. Perhaps with variable boost.

    * Smaller displacement V6 (maybe 1.8 or 2 liters) and more boost from one turbo making for a smaller package size and more power.

    * The converse of the above, higher displacement (maybe 2.4 or 2.5 liters) with lower boost.

    * Some kind of Hybrid tech (yes I know this would have little impact on ovals. Just using as an example).


    Examples of an entirely new formula might be:

    * Adopting the Super Formula/Super GT specs (4-cylinder)

    * Adopting GRC or WRC formula (4-cylinder)

    * Adopting some kind of "stock-block" formula.


    With as much development as HPD and Ilmor have in the current formula, no one is going to have a reasonable chance to catch up if the formula remains the same.

  3. #243
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColdSpiderGT View Post
    as said earlier, Lambo doesnt really fit with Indycar so I'm not exactly bummed they didnt get signed.

    I hope the Volvo rumor wasnt just smoke. It really makes since having them here and they have lots of potential connections to the series now.
    Considering this week's announcement that they are dropping 100% ICE powered cars by 2019, How would their involvement in indycar have made sense?

    Maybe the rumoured 1.6L single KERS formula for F1 and possibly indycar will infact draw several new manufacturers.

  4. #244
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK51 View Post
    Just now Marshall P on Mid Week Motorsport suggested that Lambo backed out because Indycar and the Indy 500 was too big of a stage with too much focus if things don't go well, such that success or failure in IMSA would not draw the same level of focus. So they are taking a less risky approach by backing away from Indycar.
    Seeing a Lamborghini being beaten by a lowly mass market brand like Honda or Chevy would be humiliating. Spare me the NSX/Corvette argument.

  5. #245
    To attract a new manufacturer, the engine formula will no doubt have to change. Nobody in their right mind would join the party given the several year head start that both Chevrolet and Honda have. The only compromise would be to allow a different spec to compete with the current. Indy needs to return to the days of being a proving ground for competing ideas, etc. Spec has produced closer racing but that has not in any way translated into popularity, tv ratings, sponsorship dollars or increased manufacturer interest.
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  6. #246
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    http://autoweek.com/article/indycar/...evrolet-series

    Not much here, just saying that the earliest a 3rd OEM could be here is 2020. won't identify who, but apparently have had a lot of good meetings. I'll believe it when I see a third OEM actually announced, until then I'll keep hoping.
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  7. #247
    Insider Jakester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    Seeing a Lamborghini being beaten by a lowly mass market brand like Honda or Chevy would be humiliating. Spare me the NSX/Corvette argument.
    Yeah, it's an old post but just for grins.

    IMSA GTLM
    That lowly mass market Chevy Corvette does pretty well against upmarket competitors Ferrari, BMW, Porsche. Of course Lamborghini doesn't participate in GTLM. Can't really use WEC GTE, Corvette has done well at Le Mans, but again no Lambo in GTE.
    So that leaves IMSA GTD (and various GT3 series): Lamborghini was 6th in manufacturer standings, below Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes, Audi and.....ACURA. OTOH, the Lambos did quite well in Blancpain GT3.
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  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    http://autoweek.com/article/indycar/...evrolet-series

    Not much here, just saying that the earliest a 3rd OEM could be here is 2020. won't identify who, but apparently have had a lot of good meetings. I'll believe it when I see a third OEM actually announced, until then I'll keep hoping.
    There's a big difference between good meetings and a $20 million commitment.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakester View Post
    Yeah, it's an old post but just for grins.

    IMSA GTLM
    That lowly mass market Chevy Corvette does pretty well against upmarket competitors Ferrari, BMW, Porsche. Of course Lamborghini doesn't participate in GTLM. Can't really use WEC GTE, Corvette has done well at Le Mans, but again no Lambo in GTE.
    So that leaves IMSA GTD (and various GT3 series): Lamborghini was 6th in manufacturer standings, below Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes, Audi and.....ACURA. OTOH, the Lambos did quite well in Blancpain GT3.
    A Corvette is not lowly car, nor is an NSX, but both brands' images are mass market cars, not the halo cars that run in IMSA/LeMans and are marketed as such.

    The point is a Lambo vs. a Civic or Cruze image is not valuable to the Lambo image. Although Renault and Honda competed successfully (not recently for Honda) for years against Ferrari in F1.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Openracer View Post
    A Corvette is not lowly car, nor is an NSX, but both brands' images are mass market cars, not the halo cars that run in IMSA/LeMans and are marketed as such.

    The point is a Lambo vs. a Civic or Cruze image is not valuable to the Lambo image. Although Renault and Honda competed successfully (not recently for Honda) for years against Ferrari in F1.
    Ahh, but look under the bonnet and we find Lamborghini is owned by the leader in mass market cars.....Volkswagen (thru Audi)

  11. #251
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Openracer View Post
    A Corvette is not lowly car, nor is an NSX, but both brands' images are mass market cars, not the halo cars that run in IMSA/LeMans and are marketed as such.

    The point is a Lambo vs. a Civic or Cruze image is not valuable to the Lambo image. Although Renault and Honda competed successfully (not recently for Honda) for years against Ferrari in F1.
    Which indeed was my point and why brands like ferrari and Lamborghini make no sense competing against Chevy and Honda. If FCA or VWAG ever decides to participate in Indycar, it won’t be with their halo brands.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullwinkle View Post
    There's a big difference between good meetings and a $20 million commitment.
    There in lies the problem, it should not cost that much money. IndyCar was the most popular when the motors were production based. Reliability was crap, but production motors have come along way since then.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhorn View Post
    IndyCar was the most popular when the motors were production based.
    When was that, exactly?
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  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    When was that, exactly?
    Ok, popular is relative, but when Indycar debuted its first gen car, it had production motors.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullwinkle View Post
    There's a big difference between good meetings and a $20 million commitment.
    You think there were any meetings? c'mon.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    You think there were any meetings? c'mon.
    Sure, why wouldn't there be? Indycar isn't the boogeyman.

    Jay Frye is the best Indycar has had in awhile...no-BS type of guy. What he has implemented with the new car is a lead-up to hopefully obtaining a 3rd manufacturer.
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  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhorn View Post
    Ok, popular is relative, but when Indycar debuted its first gen car, it had production motors.
    Do you mean when the IRL debuted the first generation cars?

    Those weren't "production" engines.

  18. #258
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    It did produce an off sound.
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  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Do you mean when the IRL debuted the first generation cars?

    Those weren't "production" engines.
    Not in the sense that the hard parts were used in mass produced vehicles.
    But the mfgrs did provide "kits" of components that were used by a variety of competing builders to produce engines that could be purchased.
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  21. #261
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    https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/n...dycar-1005719/

    Cosworth still waiting on a OEM partner to fund the project. Nothing really new to report here, feels like an older recycled article with no new information.

  22. #262
    Registered User Mr. Muffins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/n...dycar-1005719/

    Cosworth still waiting on a OEM partner to fund the project. Nothing really new to report here, feels like an older recycled article with no new information.
    I was wondering if they had given up at this point but apparently they haven't yet.
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  23. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    I was wondering if they had given up at this point but apparently they haven't yet.
    great minds think alike! i just saw you started a thread at the same time i posted this! perhaps one of the mods could merge them.

  24. #264
    Registered User David_Skywalker's Avatar
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    I wonder how much "funding the project" is actually building and maintaining the engines vs the ridiculous, mandatory promotional fees IndyCar demands from its suppliers.
    Just wait 'till next year!

  25. #265
    Registered User Mr. Muffins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_Skywalker View Post
    I wonder how much "funding the project" is actually building and maintaining the engines vs the ridiculous, mandatory promotional fees IndyCar demands from its suppliers.
    I would guess its 40% of the former and 60% of the ladder. I said a year or so ago that series sponsorship by OEMs should be made elective instead of mandatory.

  26. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    I would guess its 40% of the former and 60% of the ladder. I said a year or so ago that series sponsorship by OEMs should be made elective instead of mandatory.
    that's an interesting idea!

  27. #267
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    Problem is even if IndyCar find a new OEM, who's to say they don't do it on their own? However, IndyCar really should have opened the electronics to competition. Cosworth delivered some super buggy handful this year.
    "If your car was a dog, then you had to figure it out and test your own limits. And we didn't go to a wind tunnel – we did it in the first turn at Indianapolis."

  28. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    I would guess its 40% of the former and 60% of the ladder.
    Sixty percent of a ladder is a step stool. The word you are looking for is "latter."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    I said a year or so ago that series sponsorship by OEMs should be made elective instead of mandatory.
    It doesn't really matter when you said it. The series desperately needs that promotional money from the engine suppliers. If they made it "elective" none of them would elect to spend money they didn't have to.

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