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Thread: Windscreen testing scheduled for Fall/Winter 2017/2018

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    Registered User Mr. Muffins's Avatar
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    Windscreen testing scheduled for Fall/Winter 2017/2018

    In an update from racer about the protective windscreen, the testing plans were announced as well as some more details on their current iteration.

    They claim to have defeated or mostly defeated the distortion issue that plagued Ferrari but the current issue that they are working on is aerodynamic pressure pushing the driver's helmet forward.

    Unlike in F1, the windscreen will not be affecting engine air intake since it was moved down to the sidepods for 2018 but I currently wonder what effects, positive or negative, it will have on the aerodynamics of the car.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    In an update from racer about the protective windscreen, the testing plans were announced as well as some more details on their current iteration.

    They claim to have defeated or mostly defeated the distortion issue that plagued Ferrari but the current issue that they are working on is aerodynamic pressure pushing the driver's helmet forward.

    Unlike in F1, the windscreen will not be affecting engine air intake since it was moved down to the sidepods for 2018 but I currently wonder what effects, positive or negative, it will have on the aerodynamics of the car.
    Think "AMC Pacer"
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    There is no substitute. Spike's Avatar
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    Wow. It's a good thing you quoted the entirety of the OP, fenderless. If you hadn't done that we'd have never known what post you were referring to with that gem.
    "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Wow. It's a good thing you quoted the entirety of the OP, fenderless. If you hadn't done that we'd have never known what post you were referring to with that gem.
    Note that the test is scheduled for the winter...helps keep the turkeys frozen, I imagine.

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    I normally don't read the comments on racer.com articles but I thought this one was interesting:

    The optical distortion and "dizziness" that Vettel experienced at Silverstone appeared to come as a complete surprise to the F1 establishment. Yet fighter pilots, Top Fuel drivers and hydroplane racers have been using compound-curved, high-impact polycarbonate screens for decades without such detrimental effects.

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nascarnation View Post
    I normally don't read the comments on racer.com articles but I thought this one was interesting:

    The optical distortion and "dizziness" that Vettel experienced at Silverstone appeared to come as a complete surprise to the F1 establishment. Yet fighter pilots, Top Fuel drivers and hydroplane racers have been using compound-curved, high-impact polycarbonate screens for decades without such detrimental effects.
    Could be due to changes in depth perception. Not many power boats or fighter jocks have to be inch-perfect at one instant and full-field the next. Just a guess but I recall when GM was developing the HUD for their cars- it gave the impression that the data was out there between the front wheels. The theory was less eye fatigue due to constantly changing focus from the road to the instrument cluster on the dash.

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    Registered User Mr. Muffins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenderless View Post
    Could be due to changes in depth perception. Not many power boats or fighter jocks have to be inch-perfect at one instant and full-field the next. Just a guess but I recall when GM was developing the HUD for their cars- it gave the impression that the data was out there between the front wheels. The theory was less eye fatigue due to constantly changing focus from the road to the instrument cluster on the dash.
    How cool would an Indycar with a HUD be?

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    There is no substitute. Spike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenderless View Post
    Could be due to changes in depth perception.
    How could that be caused by the aeroscreen?

    Quote Originally Posted by fenderless View Post
    Just a guess but I recall when GM was developing the HUD for their cars- it gave the impression that the data was out there between the front wheels. The theory was less eye fatigue due to constantly changing focus from the road to the instrument cluster on the dash.
    It's common practice on heads-up displays to utilize a focal length that puts the image "out there" some distance to minimize eyestrain by reducing the degree (and the time it takes) to which the eyes have to refocus from objects in the distance to those that are near.

    If I had to guess (and that's all it would be) it would be that to whatever degree Vettel experienced any distortion it was caused by a prototype screen that was not fully optically correct. An easy fix.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post

    When I first saw pictures of this screen I figured it wouldn't work. There is too much curve from the point closest to the helmet down to the most frontward point. You can see on the oberto hydroplane that the area directly in front of the driver is completely flat in the vertical plane; no curve. The area that a fighter pilot typically looks through is also flat in the vertical plane, but when he would look up over his head he would get distortion. You can also see the flatness of the top fuel car canopy here: https://dragil-jagrllc.netdna-ssl.co.../07/canopy.jpg

    Like someone said earlier... I'm not sure F1 wanted this to work. This issue would have been known well in advance and could have been easily remedied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsRDG View Post
    When I first saw pictures of this screen I figured it wouldn't work. There is too much curve from the point closest to the helmet down to the most frontward point.
    Yeah, curved windscreens on race cars simply can't be made to work.











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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Yeah, curved windscreens on race cars simply can't be made to work.










    surely you know the difference between what he was trying to say and these cars?

    I hope you're just trying to be funny
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Yeah, curved windscreens on race cars simply can't be made to work.

    On this Audi, look from the top of the windshield banner and follow the wiper down to the bottom...... flat.... no curve.




    Not sure if this is the same Bentley or not, but the vertical plane where the wiper is sitting on this car appears to be flat. The curve seems to start near the top of the wiper, just above the driver's field of vision.


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    Here is a fighter jet. Notice the line-of-sight out the front is a nearly flat area. The curve starts above the pilot's forehead. This is intentional.




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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsRDG View Post
    Here is a fighter jet. Notice the line-of-sight out the front is a nearly flat area. The curve starts above the pilot's forehead. This is intentional.



    This seems to hold true even for the smallest planes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    Wow! People are much more brave than me! Looks like it is made of balsa wood!

  16. #16
    What surprises me is that there is first all that hype about the new aero configuration of the cars, nothing being mentioned about a screen yet and after all the positive reactions about the new car then comes the bummer: the screen had yet to testen and nothing of it seen yet.........


    If my memory is right, the Lidsey Hopkins Lightnings of 1980-1982 already used very high cockpit screens which made the driver ait very low in the car already. Vaguely remember comments being made about that in the 1980 Hungenss with a picture.


    Indyote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Yeah, curved windscreens on race cars simply can't be made to work.










    The distance between the driver and windscreen is a fair bit shorter in an openwheel cockpit. There appears to be a significant double curvature to the ferarri screen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indyote View Post

    If my memory is right, the Lidsey Hopkins Lightnings of 1980-1982 already used very high cockpit screens which made the driver ait very low in the car already. Vaguely remember comments being made about that in the 1980 Hungenss with a picture.


    Indyote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indyote View Post
    What surprises me is that there is first all that hype about the new aero configuration of the cars, nothing being mentioned about a screen yet and after all the positive reactions about the new car then comes the bummer: the screen had yet to testen and nothing of it seen yet.........


    If my memory is right, the Lidsey Hopkins Lightnings of 1980-1982 already used very high cockpit screens which made the driver ait very low in the car already. Vaguely remember comments being made about that in the 1980 Hungenss with a picture.


    Indyote
    Iwouldn't say it hasn't been tested at all. It hasn't been track tested. They have obvioulsy done computer testing and have been working with an aeronautical engineering company as Tino Belli has said as much. They may have determined the tub needs further revision, they may have decided they want to validate the overall aerodynamic performance of the new bodywork first. From the article, it sounds like their testing has resolved distortion issues so obviously they are testing it. The great thing is they can do the vast majority of design and testing on computer, in the wind tunnel and on the simulator before a car has to be modified or even turn a wheel. My holiday inn express theory lends me to believe Montoya and Servia have probably even seen them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsRDG View Post
    Wow! People are much more brave than me! Looks like it is made of balsa wood!
    The contraptions I've seen people hurl themselves into the sky dumbfounds me at times. Of course I've lept from a cliff on a parachute with a fan strapped to my back, been drug behind a boat on a glorified aluminum and nylon kite and flown to baltimpre in a zodiac raft hung from a hang glider so I must be a little warped myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    This seems to hold true even for the smallest planes.
    I can't say I recall any distortion in the F16 canopies running my buddy's boat at 150 and it was frequently sprayed down with salt water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    Iwouldn't say it hasn't been tested at all. It hasn't been track tested. They have obvioulsy done computer testing and have been working with an aeronautical engineering company as Tino Belli has said as much. They may have determined the tub needs further revision, they may have decided they want to validate the overall aerodynamic performance of the new bodywork first. From the article, it sounds like their testing has resolved distortion issues so obviously they are testing it. The great thing is they can do the vast majority of design and testing on computer, in the wind tunnel and on the simulator before a car has to be modified or even turn a wheel. My holiday inn express theory lends me to believe Montoya and Servia have probably even seen them.
    You are correct. They appear to be doing a very good job with running this project as a whole. They are working on one variable at a time... bodywork before adding the windscreen. They are doing a lot of front end research and simulated testing and thus reducing issues like distortion without embarrassing themselves with a public fail like F1. Actually, the bodywork testing has been kinda boring since there have been no issues and the cars seem to perform even better than before (balance).

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    With this talk about the straight section of the wind screens on various vehicles helping to prevent distortion, I am once again thinking about Ferrari's screen and why they did not do that.




    I can think of two explanations, one technical and more likely, the other more political and less likely.

    The first is that they designed the screen in a way that would less disturb ariflow going into the engine which resulted in having to curve the screen more.

    The second is that they deliberately designed the screen with more distortion to kill the idea so the FIA could get on with their halo design. (note that Ferrari was the only team to vote for the halo)

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by nascarnation View Post
    This is not the car I was thinking of. Perhaps I am off with the year, I'm pretty certain i"m off. It was a wing car and Janeth Guthrie drove it in practice with texaco star sponsoring. Later on and that must have been in 1982, in modified form it was raced by Gare Bettenhausen as a blue #8.

    Oh before I forget, thanks for the effort of course!!!!

    Indyote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Muffins View Post
    With this talk about the straight section of the wind screens on various vehicles helping to prevent distortion, I am once again thinking about Ferrari's screen and why they did not do that.




    I can think of two explanations, one technical and more likely, the other more political and less likely.

    The first is that they designed the screen in a way that would less disturb ariflow going into the engine which resulted in having to curve the screen more.

    The second is that they deliberately designed the screen with more distortion to kill the idea so the FIA could get on with their halo design. (note that Ferrari was the only team to vote for the halo)
    I honestly believe Vettel had more on his mind and didn't want to be bothered with it at Hungary. It was highly unlikely to be implemented by 2018. The objections to the Halo is more of an aesthetic complaint from fans than drivers, and most have said visibility is quite good and actually acts as a sun visor in certain conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indyote View Post
    This is not the car I was thinking of. Perhaps I am off with the year, I'm pretty certain i"m off. It was a wing car and Janeth Guthrie drove it in practice with texaco star sponsoring. Later on and that must have been in 1982, in modified form it was raced by Gare Bettenhausen as a blue #8.

    Oh before I forget, thanks for the effort of course!!!!

    Indyote

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by nascarnation View Post

    There you go, that's the '82.

    But now I wonder, have I dreamed about reading Janeth Gurthrie sitting so low in her car with the high windscreen that only the top of her hemet was visible?
    Must dig in my hungnesses....
    Thanks again....

    Indyote

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    How could that be caused by the aeroscreen?

    It's common practice on heads-up displays to utilize a focal length that puts the image "out there" some distance to minimize eyestrain by reducing the degree (and the time it takes) to which the eyes have to refocus from objects in the distance to those that are near.

    If I had to guess (and that's all it would be) it would be that to whatever degree Vettel experienced any distortion it was caused by a prototype screen that was not fully optically correct. An easy fix.
    Like yourself, just ruminating on the cause of Vettel's dizziness. I wuz recalling the prototype HUD I viewed that was installed in an Olds or a Buick back in the early 90s. You are correct that the goal was to minimize eyestrain in yer' daily driver.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indyote View Post
    But now I wonder, have I dreamed about reading Janeth Gurthrie sitting so low in her car with the high windscreen that only the top of her hemet was visible?
    Perhaps. Dreams are such amorphous things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indyote View Post
    Must dig in my hungnesses....
    Is that what the kids are calling it these days? What you do in your spare time is your business. Who am I to judge?

    In the meantime, to the extent this has anything to do with anything, here are a few photos of Janet Guthrie at Indy (#27 from 1977 and #51 from 1978; one of the years she had Texaco as a sponsor).













    Quote Originally Posted by Indyote View Post
    Indyote
    Spike

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsRDG View Post
    On this Audi, look from the top of the windshield banner and follow the wiper down to the bottom...... flat.... no curve.
    It is more curved than it appears in that photo.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsRDG View Post
    Not sure if this is the same Bentley or not...
    It's not.

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