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Thread: Indy ROP and Gordon Smiley crash

  1. #31
    To me, the two biggest differences between `Smiley` and `Bourdais` are the fact that Bourdous was driving about 1/6th (!!!!) faster than Smiley and according my knowledge of ground effects applications, Smiley's March produced a lot more downforce that Seb's DW12.
    I still wonder what kind of levels of downforce both cars generated and in case of large differences, the effects of that for the severity of either crash. Way less downforce for Smiley, lots more for Bourdais, would that have made a difference?




    Indyote

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaparral4 View Post
    That's still not an answer to the question.
    The question is do they show this to rookies at ROP?

    Absolutely not. It's a ridiculous assertion that they would.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Indyote View Post
    To me, the two biggest differences between `Smiley` and `Bourdais` are the fact that Bourdous was driving about 1/6th (!!!!) faster than Smiley and according my knowledge of ground effects applications, Smiley's March produced a lot more downforce that Seb's DW12.
    I still wonder what kind of levels of downforce both cars generated and in case of large differences, the effects of that for the severity of either crash. Way less downforce for Smiley, lots more for Bourdais, would that have made a difference?




    Indyote
    Not comparable. We're talking about a generation's difference in car and track safety, so trying to work out survivability based on grip levels is impossible.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaparral4 View Post
    There's been some interesting conversation on Facebook regarding the Gordon Smiley crash in 1982.
    There's a lot of "interesting conversation" on Facebook about racing history, particularly fatal accidents. Unfortunately, most of it seems the same recycling of myths, folklore, tall tales and pure BS that used to turn up quite often here. Facebook is where the BS and BSers have fled to.
    "Versions of a story that are more tidy, compact, and camera-ready should generally be viewed as historically suspect." - Jackson Landers

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Joeremi View Post
    Not comparable. We're talking about a generation's difference in car and track safety, so trying to work out survivability based on grip levels is impossible.


    Wit all respect and sincerity and written in all honesty: I am aware of the fact that Gordon drove a car (March 81C) that had nowhere near the safety standards and crashworthyness as that of the DW12. And there was also the lack of the SAFER wall for Gordon as well to cope with. (on the other hand, due to the much faster speed of Bourdais, a lot more kinetic energy had to be dispensed with, likely this being done by the SAFER)

    With my comment if the differences in grip level and downfonce could have made a difference had they been more close to another, I am pretty certain that it would have mattered little for Gordon.
    But I was more thinking about as of how the cars got out of control and what happened from then on in case of less or ore grip and&downforce in the two cases that there actually was. My choice and phrasing of words wasn't very well. I hope that with this explanation I am more clear it what I was thinking about.

    Indyote

  6. #36
    Dirt biker/carp hunter Stick500's Avatar
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    Other than the SAFER and the car construction, the biggest difference between the two crashes being discussed here are the exact angle which they hit the wall, and where in the corner the impact was. Bourdais' hit was later in the turn (which lessened the impact), and he did not exactly hit head-on like Smiley.
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  7. #37
    Mythbuster
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    This has to be one of the most TF exchanges here in some time...
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaparral4 View Post
    I'll trust Dr. Olvey's comments in his book over yours. I don't think he needed to sensationalize things to make the story "better".
    Just because it's Dr. Olvey doesn't mean he didn't get some of it wrong. You know, it's in print, so it must be true. Or, I've heard of that person, so it must be true, and yet...
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaparral4 View Post
    I think I was bluntly clear in my original post but like so often here on TF people want to go off on a tangent that wasn't even part of the original post. As of yet, no one has answered the real question originally asked only assumptions and personal opinions. Nothing of substance.
    Because the original post was flawed, being based on uncited chat on Facebook. The myths about Gordon Smiley have been answered repeatedly in the many, many threads that perpetually pop up about him here. And these responses are based on actual fact, not personal opinions, or based on "interesting conversation on Facebook." (that latter is hardly anything to base anything on) Upon these folks posting these facts, and not getting the answer you apparently wanted to hear, you got upset and apparently decided you were going to believe what you wanted to believe. You are, of course, free to believe what you wish, but it doesn't mean you aren't utterly and completely wrong about it.

    Did you ever think to ask whoever this BSer is on Facebook about their source?
    Last edited by JThur1; 01-13-2018 at 04:56 PM.

  8. #38
    Insider BADGER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaparral4 View Post
    When Sebastian Bourdais crashed at Indy last year it immediately reminded me of the smiley crash as did many others who've commented. I don't question Sebastian's abilities as a driver or intend to be critical but it seemed to me he made a similar error in correcting the slide. Due to the far more advanced design and safety features of today's cars he suffered recoverable injuries were as the technology in 1982 couldn't for Gordon.
    When Bourdais crashed, it should have reminded you that most of the first two paragraphs you wrote are nonsense. Knowing how Smiley crashed certainly didn’t do anything to prevent Bourdais from having a similar crash nor will it have anything to do with the next driver to crash. I’ve only raced karts, but when you start to lose the car, basically instinct takes over in an effort to save it. Sometimes you catch it, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes when you don’t, there are no injuries, and other times there are. What happens after a car loses it is more down to fate and luck than skill.
    Last edited by BADGER; 01-15-2018 at 11:16 AM.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by BADGER View Post
    When Bourdais crashed, it should have reminded you that most of the first two paragraphs you wrote are nonsense. Knowing how Smiley crashed certainly didn’t do anything to prevent Bourdais from having a similar crash nor will it have anything to do with the next driver to crash. I’ve only raced karts, but when you start to lose the car, basically instinct takes over in an effort to save it. Sometimes you catch it, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes when you don’t, there are no injuries, and other times there are. What happens after a car loses is more down to fate and luck than skill.
    Agreed. It's also ridiculous to say that 'road racers' are more susceptible to trying to save a car. Have you ever been to a dirt track? Those guys spend more time turning right than left! Turning into the slide is a natural instinct for any driver.
    Last edited by Insighter; 01-15-2018 at 03:11 AM. Reason: Typo

  10. #40
    ...and proud of it. comfortably numb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaparral4 View Post
    Soooo,,,you respond and pile more crap on the heap???? Apparently it makes you happy.
    Not likely, but it is what is deserved...
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