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Thread: Helio Got a Bumb Deal

  1. #61
    Registered User Djski442's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAindycarfan80 View Post
    Name me another team that would give a driver 18 years on it without winning a series championship? Helio still gets an opportunity to try to get a 4th Indy 500 victory.
    Marco is catching up.
    I like Ren and chevy. I don't care much for djski. That's my 'scientific' poll of one. - -Mannishboy-

  2. #62
    Insider Chris Paff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAindycarfan80 View Post
    Name me another team that would give a driver 18 years on it without winning a series championship? Helio still gets an opportunity to try to get a 4th Indy 500 victory.
    Exactly, add in how many years without a victory driving for the best team in the series
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by LAindycarfan80 View Post
    Name me another team that would give a driver 18 years on it without winning a series championship? Helio still gets an opportunity to try to get a 4th Indy 500 victory.
    It's worth noting, Penske's NASCAR team kept Rusty Wallace for 15 seasons, despite never winning a title. Rusty, who won his only title before his Penske South years, came close a couple times to winning the Winston Cup for Penske, but never did. He never won the Daytona 500, or Brickyard 400 either.

  4. #64
    Insider Chris Paff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorindy View Post
    It's worth noting, Penske's NASCAR team kept Rusty Wallace for 15 seasons, despite never winning a title. Rusty, who won his only title before his Penske South years, came close a couple times to winning the Winston Cup for Penske, but never did. He never won the Daytona 500, Coca-Cola 600, or Brickyard 400 either.
    Wow good point, i forgot that

  5. #65
    Registered User Powercat's Avatar
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    I would say that JPM probably got more of a bum(b) deal out of this than Helio has. Had to sit out almost all of last year and doesn't get a Penske Indy 500 ride this year.

  6. #66
    Helio is still competitive.

    Watch the closing laps of the 2017 Indy 500 and tell me he's not.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Powercat View Post
    I would say that JPM probably got more of a bum(b) deal out of this than Helio has. Had to sit out almost all of last year and doesn't get a Penske Indy 500 ride this year.
    Montoya also performed worse than Castroneves did.

    Besides, developing the new Acura, testing the UAK18, racing in the Indy 500, and having time with family (including his son's karting) isn't sitting out.

    I really don't think JPM minded.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pumblechook View Post
    Montoya also performed worse than Castroneves did.

    Besides, developing the new Acura, testing the UAK18, racing in the Indy 500, and having time with family (including his son's karting) isn't sitting out.

    I really don't think JPM minded.
    wow, thats debatable. to say that Montoya performed worse than Castroneves did

    in the 3 years that JPM was full time with Penske

    2014: first time back in an open wheel car since 2006... got 1 win and finished 4th in the final points standings. Helio: 1 win and 2nd in points. JPM: 1 win and 4th ... not bad for basically a rookie year again
    2015: JPM had 2 wins, including the '500. Dominated the points standings all year and lost on a tiebreaker. Helio had no wins and 5th in points.
    2016: JPM had 1 win and finished 8th. Helio had no wins and finished 3rd in points. JPM 33rd place finish at Indy KILLED his points.

    so in the three years that they competed against each other in equal equipment. JPM had 4 wins with 1 being a '500, and a best of 2nd in points, losing a tiebreaker

    Helio had 1 win, no '500 wins and a best of 2nd in points, losing by 50+ points

    seem pretty equal to me, or maybe could say JPM was even better. If your counting wins, JPM has the advantage, if your counting '500 wins, JPM has the advantage, if your counting points... JPM has the advantage of losing on a tiebreaker of finishing in 2nd, compared to Helio getting smoked by 50+ points in his 2nd place points finish
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  9. #69
    Looks like b is the new h.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorindy View Post
    It's worth noting, Penske's NASCAR team kept Rusty Wallace for 15 seasons, despite never winning a title. Rusty, who won his only title before his Penske South years, came close a couple times to winning the Winston Cup for Penske, but never did. He never won the Daytona 500, or Brickyard 400 either.

    That said, outside of a few years, he was competitive in every year. 18 wins from 1993-1994. Then penske just missed the Hendrick train. Hardly anyone could compete with Hendrick. Rusty hung it up right at the right time.

    Penske is THE team in indycar, the Hendrick, or rather from a historical POV, Hendrick is the Penske(indycar) of nascar.

  11. #71
    Registered User Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Paff View Post
    Castroneves under-performed at Penske for several years.. He could/should have been gone after the 2011 season IMO

    Helio has lived off his Indy 500 victories for years
    no disagreement there regarding the 500 victories but it's hard to dispute his consistent top 5's in the championship.

  12. #72
    Insider Jim Wilke's Avatar
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    b

  13. #73
    Insider Unzerdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brundle View Post
    This is a bumb thread
    Dum thread.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat" -Teddy Roosevelt

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Djski442 View Post
    I can't believe the number of of people out there that hate Helio for what happened to Greg, its a shame. He had nothing to do with it.
    Wow - this has got to be a serious contender for overreaction and misinterpretation of the decade. It might be a good time to take a break for a few hours - go do something you really enjoy.

  15. #75
    Registered User Liz's Avatar
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    I'm a huge Helio fan. I acknowledge that time marches on, and that Helio's time in IndyCar as a full-time driver was coming to an end. What galls me is that he wasn't given an opportunity to have a farewell season given his competitiveness in the series as a whole, championship or not. It could have been 2017 or '18, didn't matter. Like it or not, Helio is one of the faces of IndyCar; a farewell seems appropriate. Helio does have a lot of fans though apparently not on TF. And I'm sure Team Penske could have made money on the deal souvenir-wise.

    It's hell to be an "old" race driver these days. FWIW, I think JPM got a bum deal as well. And in Nascar, you could make a case for Matt Kenseth getting Helio'd as well.
    #BCForever

  16. #76
    Registered User Djski442's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neti1 View Post
    Wow - this has got to be a serious contender for overreaction and misinterpretation of the decade. It might be a good time to take a break for a few hours - go do something you really enjoy.
    Its not an overreaction, ive actually dealt with people that hate Helio because he's in what was supposed to be Gregs ride. They didn't blame him for what happened, but they hate or root against him because of it. It doesn't make any sense at all.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by LAindycarfan80 View Post
    Name me another team that would give a driver 18 years on it without winning a series championship? Helio still gets an opportunity to try to get a 4th Indy 500 victory.
    I may be wrong, but I think any team would trade a season championship for an Indy 500 win.
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  18. #78
    Registered User Jsieczka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrackforumfan View Post
    I may be wrong, but I think any team would trade a season championship for an Indy 500 win.
    I would disagree with that, if that was the case why run the series

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    i agree, so Helio got the ride because Moore tragically lost his life. if he hadn't helio would have been out of the series probably as he had no money
    I don't think so. Robin Miller said recently that Castroneves was just about to sign with Mo Nunn for 2000 when Penske came calling. I didn't know that until a couple months ago, but if that's true, he wouldn't have been rideless and since Nunn did go to the IRL as well I suspect he would have found his way there and probably won some races considering how Giaffone did. Definitely not 30 races though. Kanaan was the big benefactor here actually because Kanaan ended up getting the Nunn ride after Castroneves got the Penske ride.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    Having said that, I at least just got the sense Helio was the weakest link on Team Penske since 2010, when they introduced Will Power, then added Montoya, then added Pagenaud, then added Newgarden. But Helio was still deserving of the seat because he was still quick, still winning races, or in contention to win races and lost several due to poor strategy. And his 3 '500 wins matter a lot to RP obviously so I'm sure that had something to do with it.
    Briscoe was the weakest link from 2010-2012, but Castroneves clearly was the weakest link after that.

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by LAindycarfan80 View Post
    Name me another team that would give a driver 18 years on it without winning a series championship? Helio still gets an opportunity to try to get a 4th Indy 500 victory.
    Jack Roush/Mark Martin. 19 years.

    The difference of course is that I don't think Roush really could have improved on Martin with anyone else available at any point in that period. I think Penske could have improved on Castroneves with quite a few different guys over the years (Bourdais and Wilson especially.)

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    wow, thats debatable. to say that Montoya performed worse than Castroneves did

    in the 3 years that JPM was full time with Penske

    so in the three years that they competed against each other in equal equipment. JPM had 4 wins with 1 being a '500, and a best of 2nd in points, losing a tiebreaker

    Helio had 1 win, no '500 wins and a best of 2nd in points, losing by 50+ points

    seem pretty equal to me, or maybe could say JPM was even better. If your counting wins, JPM has the advantage, if your counting '500 wins, JPM has the advantage, if your counting points... JPM has the advantage of losing on a tiebreaker of finishing in 2nd, compared to Helio getting smoked by 50+ points in his 2nd place points finish
    I would pick Montoya between them in those years. Castroneves went winless for almost Montoya's entire stint. Although neither won the championship, Montoya came much closer to winning it than Castroneves did. And Montoya won an Indy 500 in that period and Castroneves didn't. Castroneves was more consistent, but consistency without winning much is pretty worthless unless you win the championship. Didn't Penske actually fire Tom Sneva and Al Unser after they had championship seasons because they weren't winning enough? He has treated Castroneves exceptionally well, although I think he's mellowed out big time in recent years. I didn't expect Ryan Briscoe to be there that long and it seems shocking that he would even CONSIDER David Stremme or A.J. Allmendinger for his NASCAR team...

  23. #83
    Registered User Mearsfan53081's Avatar
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    I admit I'm a huge Helio defender, but I would add that his lack of wins was hardly all his fault. El Captain lost him a handful of races the last 3 years where he had THE dominant car of the weekend.
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  24. #84
    The worst part of the deal was Helio didn’t get a season to celebrate his career. It was going to be the last time he raced at everywhere except Indy. They could have done some cool things for him. He still has the best ride at Indy. That being said even with that ride it’s going to be very difficult for him to win Indy. Pit stops are going to his downfall as with any part timers. If he is going to win a 4th probably has to be this year. Wheldon, Sr. Overcame this so it can be done.

  25. #85
    Sulli from f(x) Hitokiri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wreckinturnone View Post
    The worst part of the deal was Helio didnít get a season to celebrate his career. It was going to be the last time he raced at everywhere except Indy. They could have done some cool things for him. He still has the best ride at Indy. That being said even with that ride itís going to be very difficult for him to win Indy. Pit stops are going to his downfall as with any part timers. If he is going to win a 4th probably has to be this year. Wheldon, Sr. Overcame this so it can be done.
    Many fans say this but in all honesty I don't know what they actually mean. What did you want? How about we put Helio in car and let him wave a final good buy to his fans at Sonoma - would that be good enough? *shrugs*

    In reality it doesn't seem anyone had any idea that at the beginning of the season that it was going to be Helio's last. When guys like Bobby Rahal retired it was already known or planned out before the season even started but that wasn't true for Helio. In many ways it seemed as if Helio's Indycar job was going to be based if he could win the championship or not which wasn't known until late into the season. So we can say "Penske should have done this..." or "Indycar should have did this for Helio...." but I don't think anyone knew what was going to happen until late in the season.
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  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by wreckinturnone View Post
    The worst part of the deal was Helio didn’t get a season to celebrate his career. It was going to be the last time he raced at everywhere except Indy. They could have done some cool things for him. He still has the best ride at Indy. That being said even with that ride it’s going to be very difficult for him to win Indy. Pit stops are going to his downfall as with any part timers. If he is going to win a 4th probably has to be this year. Wheldon, Sr. Overcame this so it can be done.
    Has everyone forgotten how Helio and TK were honored all last year for their 20 years in Indycar...
    Chicago Blackhawks done didn't do it again!

  27. #87
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    Driver doesnít perform to standards set forth in agreement with car owner. Driver does not get full time ride. Driver is awarded lesser roll in organization. Driver is more than likely grateful.

    All those years with the best the premiere organization has to offer and not one championship.



    What am I missing?

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by MoparsRule View Post
    Driver doesn’t perform to standards set forth in agreement with car owner. Driver does not get full time ride. Driver is awarded lesser roll in organization. Driver is more than likely grateful.

    All those years with the best the premiere organization has to offer and not one championship.



    What am I missing?
    3 Indy 500 wins, and 2014 and last year could easily have been #4 and #5.

  29. #89
    Insider Jim Wilke's Avatar
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    Here's the list of drivers who have more Indy 500 wins than Helio:

    AJ Foyt
    Rick Mears
    Al Unser, Sr.

  30. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Fury View Post
    3 Indy 500 wins, and 2014 and last year could easily have been #4 and #5.
    Could have counts now? Then I give you the winningest Indy 500 driver of all time, Michael Andretti! Hell why not, plenty of trackforum people think 4th place wins it.

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