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Thread: Discuss NBC Gold

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    The typical excuses are often presented (along with the other common ones e.g. there's 587 TV channels now vs 3 back in the day, etc.) as rationale to why IndyCar is doing hunky-dory in terms of their 0.x TV ratings that they often pull in. My point is that there are many sources of potential new fans that IndyCar could tap into with some creativity - but instead of growth, they've chosen to focus on (what I believe) will be a very few dollars in the short term by going behind the NBC Gold paywall.
    It's not so simple balancing between TV coverage and other platforms.

    IndyCar needs TV coverage. 8 races instead of 5 free-to-air is great. (And I think 8 on NBC is better than 10 on ABC would've been.) Also, NBCSN still reaches a lot of people.

    For sure there are people that would rather pay for an OTT service showing all the races but that's still a smaller crowd than those watching IndyCar on cable, let alone OTA. Those NASCAR fans tuning a bit early and starting to watch the IndyCar race wouldn't pay for an IndyCar OTT service. They probably didn't even know it exists. The same if you put live races on YouTube, or Red Bull or something showed them for free on their web sites. Many casual viewers wouldn't even know you could watch IndyCar for free.

    If you offer alternative viewing platforms, the interest from broadcasters will be gone apart from the 500. You should give the TV rights for free like F1 is doing or possibly even have to buy air time. And still you'd likely end up with a smaller audience. IndyCar simply needs TV coverage, even NBCSN is a better display window than any OTT service.

    But the NBC Gold thing feels like a bit of a mistake if it limits what IndyCar can offer on YouTube. I'm not so sure about the importance of the practice streams; apart from Alonso's first Indy test, I doubt those have had big interest from non-diehard fans. But the race uploads have been a great way to catch up on what has happened. It would be a shame to lose them.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    I don't have a percentage for you but I will give you a number of total viewers. I also don't have all the numbers right in front of my face or saved on a spreadsheet like you might have but if our 5 network races this year brought in a total of 8 million viewers (pure guess), then my guess for next years 8 races on NBC I expect a total of 12 million viewers. I would call 4 million more people "a hell of a lot more people", wouldn't you?

    Also we can agree to disagree about NBC vs ABC, I utterly hate ABC broadcasts of Indycar and I have for the last 15 years, I am very optimistic about NBC next year with how much they claim they will promote the series and most importantly the Indy 500, something ABC stopped caring about (my opinion).
    I don't have the numbers saved in a spreadsheet, but luckily for us, Cornys does an excellent job in his thread in the Biz section of tabulating them all. I assume you know this since you've posted in that thread.

    If I did my math correctly, there's a total if 8,521,000 viewers in 5 network races this year, for an average of 1,704,200 viewers per network TV race. BUT, your 8 million viewers in 5 races wasn't too far off.

    So then let's use your example:
    8 million viewers in 5 network races is 1,600,000 viewers per network race.
    Further you said that next year you expect
    12 million viewers in 8 network races, which works out to 1,500,000 viewers per network race. In other words, a decrease of 100,000 viewers per network race.

    Finally, in the context that ABC was offering 10 network races vs 8 for NBC and using your numbers, that equates to
    10 Network Races on ABC for a total of ~16 million viewers
    8 Network Races on NBC for a total of ~12 million viewers
    In other words, 4 million more viewers if Miles had opted for ABC over NBC.

    So, to directly answer the question you posed me: No, I do not consider 4 million more viewers to be a 'hell of a lot more' because in context the purported ABC deal would have resulted in more viewers than the NBC deal.

    I am, however, surprised that you're expecting a decrease in the number of viewers per network race for IndyCar next year based on your example that you gave me.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    It's not so simple balancing between TV coverage and other platforms.

    IndyCar needs TV coverage. 8 races instead of 5 free-to-air is great. (And I think 8 on NBC is better than 10 on ABC would've been.) Also, NBCSN still reaches a lot of people.

    For sure there are people that would rather pay for an OTT service showing all the races but that's still a smaller crowd than those watching IndyCar on cable, let alone OTA. Those NASCAR fans tuning a bit early and starting to watch the IndyCar race wouldn't pay for an IndyCar OTT service. They probably didn't even know it exists. The same if you put live races on YouTube, or Red Bull or something showed them for free on their web sites. Many casual viewers wouldn't even know you could watch IndyCar for free.

    If you offer alternative viewing platforms, the interest from broadcasters will be gone apart from the 500. You should give the TV rights for free like F1 is doing or possibly even have to buy air time. And still you'd likely end up with a smaller audience. IndyCar simply needs TV coverage, even NBCSN is a better display window than any OTT service.

    But the NBC Gold thing feels like a bit of a mistake if it limits what IndyCar can offer on YouTube. I'm not so sure about the importance of the practice streams; apart from Alonso's first Indy test, I doubt those have had big interest from non-diehard fans. But the race uploads have been a great way to catch up on what has happened. It would be a shame to lose them.
    You should probably read and understand my post #50 in this thread, because I don't understand your point.

    Nobody is advocating for OTT only. Best case scenario, IMO, was always maximum races on Network TV + IndyCar retaining their YouTube streaming rights for growth/marketing/exposure purposes.

    That said, IndyCar ceded a valuable commodity (perhaps their most valuable) when they signed away their streaming rights on YouTube and had them placed behind the NBCGold paywall.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    I don't have the numbers saved in a spreadsheet, but luckily for us, Cornys does an excellent job in his thread in the Biz section of tabulating them all. I assume you know this since you've posted in that thread.

    If I did my math correctly, there's a total if 8,521,000 viewers in 5 network races this year, for an average of 1,704,200 viewers per network TV race. BUT, your 8 million viewers in 5 races wasn't too far off.

    So then let's use your example:
    8 million viewers in 5 network races is 1,600,000 viewers per network race.
    Further you said that next year you expect
    12 million viewers in 8 network races, which works out to 1,500,000 viewers per network race. In other words, a decrease of 100,000 viewers per network race.
    I am surprised you don't know how math works.

    1 of those 5 network races is the Indy 500 (ya know that race that regularly draws in at least 5x more than a normal network race). So when you have 5 network races , 1 being a massive audience, the average will be higher. When you have 8 network races and still just 1 race being a massive audience, the average will drop despite the fact more people are watching the other races.

    Let me break it down to you.

    This year ABC had 8 million for 5 network races (exlcuding Indy 500 qualifying, just doing the races here). 8 million - the 5 million who watched Indy= 3 million leftover. 3 million divided by the other 4 races = 750,000 per race outside of Indy.

    Lets assume that Indy once again draws 5 million on NBC next year ( I think it'll be more like 6 but we'll see). so my 12 million estimate - 5 million for Indy = 7 million for the other 7 races. So yes believe it or not, 1 million tuning in per network race excluding Indy is a significant increase from 750,000 per race.


    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    Finally, in the context that ABC was offering 10 network races vs 8 for NBC and using your numbers, that equates to
    10 Network Races on ABC for a total of ~16 million viewers
    8 Network Races on NBC for a total of ~12 million viewers
    In other words, 4 million more viewers if Miles had opted for ABC over NBC.
    Once again you don't understand how math works. See above answer for why you are so wrong.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    Once again you don't understand how math works. See above answer for why you are so wrong.
    Unfortunately, all this proves is that you're perfectly content to change the ground rules of the discussion ex-post-facto, and manipulate the numbers to suit your agenda. As such, I suggest we agree to disagree.

    If you do wish to continue the discussion, please show me in your Post #56 in this thread (which I've quoted below) where we were supposed to exclude the Indy 500 viewership in our discussion of # of viewers per network race.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    I don't have a percentage for you but I will give you a number of total viewers. I also don't have all the numbers right in front of my face or saved on a spreadsheet like you might have but if our 5 network races this year brought in a total of 8 million viewers (pure guess), then my guess for next years 8 races on NBC I expect a total of 12 million viewers. I would call 4 million more people "a hell of a lot more people", wouldn't you?

    Also we can agree to disagree about NBC vs ABC, I utterly hate ABC broadcasts of Indycar and I have for the last 15 years, I am very optimistic about NBC next year with how much they claim they will promote the series and most importantly the Indy 500, something ABC stopped caring about (my opinion).

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    Unfortunately, all this proves is that you're perfectly content to change the ground rules of the discussion ex-post-facto, and manipulate the numbers to suit your agenda. As such, I suggest we agree to disagree.

    If you do wish to continue the discussion, please show me in your Post #56 in this thread (which I've quoted below) where we were supposed to exclude the Indy 500 viewership in our discussion of # of viewers per network race.
    I'm sorry you didn't understand what I'm saying, I guess we'll have to leave it there.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    You should probably read and understand my post #50 in this thread, because I don't understand your point.

    Nobody is advocating for OTT only. Best case scenario, IMO, was always maximum races on Network TV + IndyCar retaining their YouTube streaming rights for growth/marketing/exposure purposes.

    That said, IndyCar ceded a valuable commodity (perhaps their most valuable) when they signed away their streaming rights on YouTube and had them placed behind the NBCGold paywall.
    Right now I don't see IndyCar reaching a bigger audience in any streaming service than it reaches even on NBCSN. (Unless it's a special occasion like Alonso's first Indy test.) If you offer an OTT alternative to cable, any broadcasters may just think IndyCar is not worth their money beyond the 500.

    It's about what content you put (or next year can't put) on YouTube. Practice sessions? Nah, fun to watch occasionally but not really must-see. I might pay a reasonable price for a well-produced practice coverage. Races? No-no as long as you have them on TV. Lights? Should be live on YouTube to maximize the exposure for sponsors. ICS race replays and highlights? Should definitely be on YouTube to promote IndyCar to curious people.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Right now I don't see IndyCar reaching a bigger audience in any streaming service than it reaches even on NBCSN. (Unless it's a special occasion like Alonso's first Indy test.) If you offer an OTT alternative to cable, any broadcasters may just think IndyCar is not worth their money beyond the 500.

    It's about what content you put (or next year can't put) on YouTube. Practice sessions? Nah, fun to watch occasionally but not really must-see. I might pay a reasonable price for a well-produced practice coverage. Races? No-no as long as you have them on TV. Lights? Should be live on YouTube to maximize the exposure for sponsors. ICS race replays and highlights? Should definitely be on YouTube to promote IndyCar to curious people.
    Let's use a specific example.

    Let's assume that (as discussed)
    1) ABC was offering 10 races on network, the rest on some combination of ESPN/ESPN2, plus IndyCar retains their YouTube streaming rights
    or
    2) The NBC/NBCSN deal with the NBC Gold paywall

    I pick deal #1 every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I further try and exploit the YouTube angle with cross marketing opportunities to influencers in the BMX/Drifting communities, plus PC Computer Enthusiast communities in an effort to grow the sport. Along with others.

    Most importantly, in doing so, I keep my YouTube analytic exposure, make myself available to cord-cutters, and the international market (which seems to be a question mark at this point).

    As a side note, I don't know that #1 was what ABC offered. I merely offer it up as an example of the type of package I would have been angling for were I negotiating the new media rights deal on IndyCar's behalf.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    Let's use a specific example.

    Let's assume that (as discussed)
    1) ABC was offering 10 races on network, the rest on some combination of ESPN/ESPN2, plus IndyCar retains their YouTube streaming rights
    or
    2) The NBC/NBCSN deal with the NBC Gold paywall
    Miles spoke about ESPN+ as an alternative to NBC Gold when the choice between NBC and ABC was still open. So no guarantees IndyCar would have retained the YouTube streaming rights had they chosen ABC/ESPN.

    As for choosing NBC over ABC, I think that was a good choice. Yes, ABC offered to more races OTA but the ratings on ABC showed they haven't been doing great job lately. ABC put no effort on covering the series beyond their commitments. If you had a look on ESPN's and NBC Sports' web sites during the weekends "covered" by ABC, NBC still covered those races with multiple articles on their site. On the other hand, ESPN barely posted some AP articles or had their NASCAR guy writing something before the 500. NBC has shown commitment on covering IndyCar and IndyCar made the right choice by choosing them as the media partner.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    The number of people watching practice online for free on youtube doesnt do anything for Indycar.
    There are YouTubers who make over $1 million per year making Minecraft videos. Read that again: People make videos of themselves playing Minecraft and make over $1 million per year. If IndyCar couldn't make money via YouTube, they're doing something wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    So your theory that the number of people dropping I believe is completely dumbfounded, but we shall see.
    Well, we probably won't see, because IndyCar probably won't release numbers.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    The potential for growing IndyCar's fan base through YouTube has nothing to do with some random person searching for "IndyCar Practice" and everything to do with YouTube's 'Suggested for You' AI algorithms which populate your initial YouTube homepage with content based on your search statistics and previous views (among other data).

    I'm sure Mark Miles and IndyCar share your limited understanding of both the technology and the growth potential there, which is why the YouTube platform was never successfully exploited by IndyCar. Indeed, as I stated above, I believe IndyCar's best potential for growing the fan base comes from crossover interest groups. Some of the most frustrating comments I read on this message board are things like 'Auto racing is dying off' or 'Millennials don't work on cars, so they'll never be racing fans'. Both these comments presume that IndyCar has already captured 100% of the potential fan viewership base and that there's no room for growth. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Off the top of my head I can think of two YouTubbers - one runs a Hardcore PC Computer Enthusiast channel, the other runs a channel that was dedicated to BMX. Both have multi-million subscribers on their YouTube channels. The PC Enthusiast also occasionally does car videos/discussions, while the BMX guy has focused on drifting as of late. Both of these examples represent cross-over potential fan base markets that IndyCar could gain exposure to through YouTube's suggestion algorithms.

    FYI - the BMX guys happens to be a young Millennial (actually might be too young to qualify as a Millennial in fact) and both get large numbers of views on their car videos. IndyCar would kill for that kind of exposure.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like it would be a dramatic net-gain for IndyCar if they loaded their YouTube channel up with videos like "Bikini Contest at the Portland Grand Prix," "Funny Cat Videos with IndyCar Drivers" and "Unboxing the new iPhone, by James Hinchcliffe"?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM658 View Post
    "Funny Cat Videos with James Hinchcliffe"?
    Please, please, don't give Hinchcliffe any ideas!

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by MM658 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like it would be a dramatic net-gain for IndyCar if they loaded their YouTube channel up with videos like "Bikini Contest at the Portland Grand Prix," "Funny Cat Videos with IndyCar Drivers" and "Unboxing the new iPhone, by James Hinchcliffe"?
    No. What you're talking about are gimmicks (fads/memes/etc.). What I'm talking about is marketing to potential sustainable new audiences. The key point being 'new' in that they typically wouldn't be exposed to IndyCar.

    And you've also got it backwards.
    You don't want James Hinchcliffe to do a YouTube video unboxing the new iPhone.
    You do want TheWillyrex plugging IndyCar's new video game (if it even exists). Possibly in conjunction with the Fernando Alonso announcement - since TheWillyrex is from Spain.

    As just one example.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfc_m_drake View Post
    No. What you're talking about are gimmicks (fads/memes/etc.). What I'm talking about is marketing to potential sustainable new audiences. The key point being 'new' in that they typically wouldn't be exposed to IndyCar.

    And you've also got it backwards.
    You don't want James Hinchcliffe to do a YouTube video unboxing the new iPhone.
    You do want TheWillyrex plugging IndyCar's new video game (if it even exists). Possibly in conjunction with the Fernando Alonso announcement - since TheWillyrex is from Spain.

    As just one example.
    Seems to me IndyCar tries that stuff all the time -- perhaps not on YouTube, but in real life. Kardashians red-carpeting the 500 when their show was probably at its peak, Lady GaGa singing a few years ago, Peyton Manning waving the green flag, celebrity pace car drivers, celebs of all kinds taking two-seater rides.....all designed for IndyCar to "get the rub" from the otherwise-unrelated celeb.

    Doesn't seem to result in much needle-moving.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by MM658 View Post
    Seems to me IndyCar tries that stuff all the time -- perhaps not on YouTube, but in real life. Kardashians red-carpeting the 500 when their show was probably at its peak, Lady GaGa singing a few years ago, Peyton Manning waving the green flag, celebrity pace car drivers, celebs of all kinds taking two-seater rides.....all designed for IndyCar to "get the rub" from the otherwise-unrelated celeb.

    Doesn't seem to result in much needle-moving.
    I trust you see the difference between target marketing to

    Group A: PC Enthusiasts (who do things like overclock to get the most out of their build) who play racing video games and ALSO like working on their cars (even modding them to get the most out of them)
    VS
    Group B: Lady Gaga and Kardashian fans

    Targeting Group A makes sense if you're looking for potential long-term growth.
    Targeting Group B makes no sense...unless you're looking for a one-time 'flash in the pan' type of hit

    And again - just one example
    Last edited by pfc_m_drake; 09-07-2018 at 11:24 AM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    ...the move to NBC for next year will bring in a hell of a lot more people than this year. This year we had 5 races on ABC (and Indy 500 qualifying). Next year we have at least 8 races on NBC. Those three additional races on NBC will bring in more viewership than 5 network races on Always Bad Coverage.
    The expectation/hope is that the new deal will bring an increase in viewers. Time will tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    So your theory that the number of people dropping I believe is completely dumbfounded...
    People can be dumbfounded. Things, including theories, cannot be.
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  17. #77
    I don't think it has been discussed, but on a given weekend, what are the ratings in qualify session vs race ?

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    Lets assume that Indy once again draws 5 million on NBC next year ( I think it'll be more like 6 but we'll see).
    Indy 500 TV Ratings
    2015: 4.3
    2016: 3.9
    2017: 3.4
    2018: 3.1

    Ratings and viewership for the 500 have been declining for years. This year's 3.1 rating represented a drop of 9% from last years 3.4 and a drop of 21% compared to 2016's rating of 3.9.

    Likewise, This year's broadcast had 4.9 million viewers which was a drop of 10% from last years 5.5 million viewers and a drop of 18% compared to 2016's 6 million viewers.

    Given all that, upon what math are you basing your prediction that next year's 500 will enjoy something like a 20% increase in viewership as compared to this year?

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Indy 500 TV Ratings
    2015: 4.3
    2016: 3.9
    2017: 3.4
    2018: 3.1

    Ratings and viewership for the 500 have been declining for years. This year's 3.1 rating represented a drop of 9% from last years 3.4 and a drop of 21% compared to 2016's rating of 3.9.

    Likewise, This year's broadcast had 4.9 million viewers which was a drop of 10% from last years 5.5 million viewers and a drop of 18% compared to 2016's 6 million viewers.

    Given all that, upon what math are you basing your prediction that next year's 500 will enjoy something like a 20% increase in viewership as compared to this year?
    I'm well aware of the sad ratings trend for the Indy 500 in the last 4 years.

    My reason for my prediction is what NBC did for the Kentucky Derby initially. Right now honestly neither you or I know what the rating and viewership for next years 500 will be but we will find out won't we? I am on record saying we will get 6 million next year.

    You could be right and I could be wrong, we will find out, I certainly hope I am right. Until then it's all speculation.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    The expectation/hope is that the new deal will bring an increase in viewers. Time will tell.

    People can be dumbfounded. Things, including theories, cannot be.
    Maybe he meant "unfounded."
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    I'm well aware of the sad ratings trend for the Indy 500 in the last 4 years.
    In fact, that, "sad ratings trend" extends far beyond the last four years. It seems, however, your prediction is not swayed by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    My reason for my prediction is what NBC did for the Kentucky Derby initially.
    So your analysis is based on that one item alone, and ignores everything else. Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    Right now honestly neither you or I know what the rating and viewership for next years 500 will be but we will find out won't we?
    I certainly hope so.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    ...I certainly hope I am right. Until then it's all speculation.
    Apparently so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdkiel View Post
    Maybe he meant "unfounded."
    It's all speculation.

  23. #83
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    The whole concept of OTA vs "cable/sat" vs streaming (and subspecies of "free with adverts" vs paywall) is evolving pretty quickly.
    Looks to me that Indycar found a route that looked reasonable from a revenue basis and went with it.
    24 months from now, who knows what this will look like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    In fact, that, "sad ratings trend" extends far beyond the last four years. It seems, however, your prediction is not swayed by it.

    So your analysis is based on that one item alone, and ignores everything else. Okay.

    I certainly hope so.

    Apparently so.
    I'm well aware of the ratings decline in general of the Indy 500 for the last several decades.

    My analysis is based off several things.
    Last edited by The Gary Møøse Show; 09-07-2018 at 08:56 PM.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    It's all speculation.
    Could be.

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    It I read it correctly due to the new tv contract , next year is finally going to be the “breakout” year we all have been waiting for.
    RIP Justin! WWJCD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Grigson View Post
    It I read it correctly due to the new tv contract , next year is finally going to be the “breakout” year we all have been waiting for.
    It's already up 78%.
    How much upside are we expecting?


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    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    My analysis is based off several things...
    Really? A few posts up you said your analysis that lead to your prediction of a 20% increase in viewership for the 2019 Indy 500 broadcast was based on just one thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    My reason for my prediction is what NBC did for the Kentucky Derby initially.

  29. #89
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    I am pretty sure i watched USAC Sprint car racing last night on NBCSN. That is good as gold in my opinion. I'll take Friday Night Thunder.

    The numbers might suck, but I like the direction they are taking.
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    Maybe a good time to jump start this thread. Less the gripe session, of course.

    The thing that concerns me about NBCSports gold is the poor reviews found on a quick Google search.

    Amazon @ 2.8 stars

    https://www.amazon.com/NBCUniversal-...ews/B01N9HZQ0G

    ITunes Appstore @ 1.4 stars

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/nbc-...993195227?mt=8

    There's more. Lot's of complaints related to the quality of stream.

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