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Thread: Wickens Updates v2.0

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick500 View Post
    ...For absolutely no apparent reason, is a huge failure...
    We can't possibly know this to be true!

    I would also ask everyone to define "awake and alert" because while we all (myself included) tend to take this to mean "driver will be OK," it really isn't an indicator of injuries. Also note, in the first hour, it's quite likely even the doctors don't know the full extent of injuries and no self respecting MD would ever attempt to give a "prognosis" already for this level of trauma. (Thus, I can't fathom how FoxNews is somehow reporting Wickens will make a full recovery. They can't possibly know that, and I would highly question their sourcing).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick500 View Post

    You completely missed it. Leaving fans feeling a driver died for over an an hour, for absolutely no apparent reason, is a huge failure. Aren't we part of the sport, too, or just fodder to dismiss?
    [emphasis mine]

    That is quite the assumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrictenor1 View Post
    I'm terribly sorry that the family, the medical staff, the team, and the series did not keep you entertained with updates to a driver's serious injuries.

    Honestly, it doesn't really concern us. They will tell us the status when they're good and ready to do so. They owe us nothing.
    I am not sure I agree with this. The fans might not be family - but they do truly care about the drivers... Also, how many families later say how thankful/grateful they are for all the fan support etc.?

    I do agree that the nitty gritty details of their injuries and recovery are not our business, but a simple and respectful "while the driver is injured, he is likely to survive" or something similar would be very appropriate to ease everyone's mind (including family, team etc.....). Even just little updates, "the crew has moved the driver to the ambulance etc." "helicopter is warming up for transport" etc. We really got very little to nothing at the track......

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    I think this is getting blown way out of perspective. My opinion is that the medical center had 5 drivers come in at the same time and it likely took some time for the medical people to find an opportunity to brief Cavin on the extent of the driver injuries. I was as uncomfortable as everyone else during that time, but I don't think IndyCar did anything that was out of line or unreasonable.

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    Consider this when complaining that Indycar took too long to offer an update.

    A team of medical professionals is examining an emergent patient who on top of visible injury may have severe internal injuries that are not readily diagnosed. To have a member of this team take time from the patient to update the press officer is as ludicrous as having the press officer make a statement based on what little he has observed or fully understands. Also, Awake and alert on arrival to the medical center is a sure sign of absolutely nothing in this situation. Plenty of major head trauma patients are awake for a time after the incident only to slip away forever, including Jules Bianchi. They make announcements when they are certain about what they are telling you and not before then.

  6. #96
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    I went to the tape this morning, and when Stan Fox crashed in 1995, ABC had an update 30 minutes later. When Greg Moore had his accident, Olvey gave a report 30 minutes later. Not sure why it takes twice as long now to say the patient will probably pull through.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK51 View Post
    I went to the tape this morning, and when Stan Fox crashed in 1995, ABC had an update 30 minutes later. When Greg Moore had his accident, Olvey gave a report 30 minutes later. Not sure why it takes twice as long now to say the patient will probably pull through.
    It took them a solid 20 minutes to get him extricated yesterday......just sayin...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK51 View Post
    I went to the tape this morning, and when Stan Fox crashed in 1995, ABC had an update 30 minutes later. When Greg Moore had his accident, Olvey gave a report 30 minutes later. Not sure why it takes twice as long now to say the patient will probably pull through.
    Interesting. Like I said upthread, it's totally up to Indycar to manage the information, it was different than what we are used to, so in the future, we won't expect updates - good or bad - in that time frame.
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  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakester View Post
    While I too was greatly concerned during the time it took to get news on Robert (and feared the worst), I will not complain.

    Not only does HIPAA make things much more difficult now, I'm sure it took a great deal of time to assess Robert's condition and perform stabilization. As well, there were other drivers to assess.

    I'd rather all the medical folks focus their attention on the injured.

    Releasing information that could later change dramatically would be far worse...from many aspects, social and legal.
    I addressed this in the race thread, and said about the same thing ... but I used a Lot more words.

    Basically, the Only person who needs immediate reassurance is the spouse---and then the family. Also, the rescue crew needs to know the extent of the injuries before making any announcement. even "awake and alert" left the possibility of neck-down paralysis .... but with the efforts of getting a driver with a broken back and legs out of the crash, i am pretty sure they didn't have a lot of time to do much but make sure he stayed alive and didn't get worse while they extracted him.

    On top of that, they probably wanted to do a quick assessment of internal injuries. A person can bleed to death in about five minutes from a lacerated liver---and he did have a heart contusion. I assume that by the time the staff at IndyCar felt secure that Wickens wasn't going to die on a gurney on the way to the hospital, and that his next of kin had been alerted ... they wasted no time writing a notice for the fans.

    Hey. Stop being selfish a minute.

    IndyCar Knows the fans are Truly and Deeply concerned about the drivers. I know they know that many of us were near tears, and many had to walk away from the TV to regain composure. They know.

    They also know that they have a whole hierarchy of responsibilities.

    Trust me, they Want to give the fans good news as soon as possible ... and if it has to be bad news ... they will tell us that, too. I assume we all recall Las Vegas 2011?

    We really need to curb our habits of picking nits and looking for problems ... particularly when they are Own problems.

    I Really wish they could have said Immediately ,"He's alive." it would have saved me a Lot of pain. But I have to man up ---I chose to watch the race, I chose to care about the drivers. My pain is My problem, not IndyCar's.

    I don't blame IndyCar for me getting so upset Sunday. i don't blame IndyCar for making sure Wickens was going to live before telling me that. I don't blame anyone for any of that. That's the sport wee follow, and the people involved all did all they could---in such situations, people really are moved to perform at higher levels.

    We should be so moved.

    None of us should whine about Anything regarding yesterday's incident. We should be adults, and decent people, and good-hearted race fans.

    I don't blame some people for getting angry that they had to endure some tense moments---that is a normal human reaction to fear and pain---it is survival-oriented.

    But the next day, we should be intelligent enough to know why we got angry, and mature enough to let it go.

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    The level on entitlement in the world is insane anymore. I didn’t spend over an hour thinking he had died, the general relaxed mood of people in the pits suggested they had already gotten word, even Michael Andretti’s answer some are so pissed off about suggested he had heard Wickens was alert. In one of the long shots of the extrication effort you could see his head moving. Because of error made in the past TV isn’t going to tell you anything without conformation and the track PA guy is at the mercy of Indycar.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskie4041 View Post
    I was surprised we got good news as soon as we did.

    I know someone who was a first responder to a high profile sports injury last year. They told the family of the injured player he was alright when he was in the ambulance only to call them back 20 minutes later saying he was going to die without major brain surgery. INDYCAR did a good job with this.
    I agree. Although it is agonizing, I want to wait until the information I'm give is able to be correct. They did it right this time I do believe.

  12. #102
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    I guess I didn’t realize the need to know ASAP. Sarcastically speaking , next time IC should have a reporter at the scene.. SMH.

  13. #103
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    [QUOTE=step33T;4419430]
    Quote Originally Posted by Stick500 View Post
    ...For absolutely no apparent reason, is a huge failure.../QUOTE]

    We can't possibly know this to true!

    I would also ask everyone to define "awake and alert" because while we all (myself included) tend to take this to mean "driver will be OK," it really isn't an indicator of injuries. Also note, in the first hour, it's quite likely even the doctors don't know the full extent of injuries and no self respecting MD would ever attempt to give a "prognosis" already for this level of trauma. (Thus, I can't fathom how FoxNews is somehow reporting Wickens will make a full recovery. They can't possibly know that, and I would highly question their sourcing).
    I believe this to be the Fox report
    https://foxsports975.iheart.com/feat...obert-wickens/
    The quote
    Robert Wickens is awake, alert, and is expected to recover from a horrific crash.
    no source, and a very undefined 'expected to recover'.

    Whether we like it or not, the docs and the 'pr' folks are going to wait until they can give good information. Yes, they owe the fans information...but they owe the fans accurate information, way over owing it 'quickly'.
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  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by step33T View Post
    We can't possibly know this to be true!

    I would also ask everyone to define "awake and alert" because while we all (myself included) tend to take this to mean "driver will be OK," it really isn't an indicator of injuries. Also note, in the first hour, it's quite likely even the doctors don't know the full extent of injuries and no self respecting MD would ever attempt to give a "prognosis" already for this level of trauma. (Thus, I can't fathom how FoxNews is somehow reporting Wickens will make a full recovery. They can't possibly know that, and I would highly question their sourcing).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
    I addressed this in the race thread, and said about the same thing ... but I used a Lot more words.

    Basically, the Only person who needs immediate reassurance is the spouse---and then the family. Also, the rescue crew needs to know the extent of the injuries before making any announcement. even "awake and alert" left the possibility of neck-down paralysis .... but with the efforts of getting a driver with a broken back and legs out of the crash, i am pretty sure they didn't have a lot of time to do much but make sure he stayed alive and didn't get worse while they extracted him.

    On top of that, they probably wanted to do a quick assessment of internal injuries. A person can bleed to death in about five minutes from a lacerated liver---and he did have a heart contusion. I assume that by the time the staff at IndyCar felt secure that Wickens wasn't going to die on a gurney on the way to the hospital, and that his next of kin had been alerted ... they wasted no time writing a notice for the fans.

    Hey. Stop being selfish a minute.

    IndyCar Knows the fans are Truly and Deeply concerned about the drivers. I know they know that many of us were near tears, and many had to walk away from the TV to regain composure. They know.

    They also know that they have a whole hierarchy of responsibilities.

    Trust me, they Want to give the fans good news as soon as possible ... and if it has to be bad news ... they will tell us that, too. I assume we all recall Las Vegas 2011?

    We really need to curb our habits of picking nits and looking for problems ... particularly when they are Own problems.

    I Really wish they could have said Immediately ,"He's alive." it would have saved me a Lot of pain. But I have to man up ---I chose to watch the race, I chose to care about the drivers. My pain is My problem, not IndyCar's.

    I don't blame IndyCar for me getting so upset Sunday. i don't blame IndyCar for making sure Wickens was going to live before telling me that. I don't blame anyone for any of that. That's the sport wee follow, and the people involved all did all they could---in such situations, people really are moved to perform at higher levels.

    We should be so moved.

    None of us should whine about Anything regarding yesterday's incident. We should be adults, and decent people, and good-hearted race fans.

    I don't blame some people for getting angry that they had to endure some tense moments---that is a normal human reaction to fear and pain---it is survival-oriented.

    But the next day, we should be intelligent enough to know why we got angry, and mature enough to let it go.
    Very, very well said.

  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakester View Post
    HIPAA

    Time required to evaluate Wickens' injuries and other driver injuries.

    Stabilizing and treating Wickens took precedence.

    Communicating with family took precedence.

    It did take a long time, but I'm not going to criticize.
    100 percent accurate assessment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aracefan View Post
    HIPPA affects only the medical personnel. The PR guy was in there and could have been quicker. There was no announcement about anyone for that time. Just come out and say, "awake and alert" (i.e., conscious) and evaluating the extent of injuries. The latter never happened at all. Bad job by the series. It has nothing to do with entertainment.
    If "the PR Guy" was in there, then he is bound by HIPAA restrictions as well.

  18. #108
    If he was alert when he was loaded in the ambulance, all that had to be said was just that. That means nothing at all. All it tells people is he is basically alive. Anyone who has been around Indy car long enough knew there were injuries. The long delay with no news is what made it uncomfortable. When I seen they were replacing the fence, I took that as a good sign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK51 View Post
    I went to the tape this morning, and when Stan Fox crashed in 1995, ABC had an update 30 minutes later. When Greg Moore had his accident, Olvey gave a report 30 minutes later. Not sure why it takes twice as long now to say the patient will probably pull through.
    HIPAA did not exist at that time. Moore's accident was a single car. Fox's was multiple cars, but series also were looser with medical information 25 years ago.

    There's also next of kin. No information should be released to the public or media until next of kin have been notified first. If the immediate family is at the track, that accelerates the process of disseminating information. If not, the process can be slower.

    This world of Twitter forces everyone to think they must be first in breaking news instead of being accurate in breaking news and following the well-established rules of crisis communications. There is a protocol that is followed EVERY TIME there's a driver fatality or serious injury, and that protocol can be influenced by a variety of external factors. I'm certain IndyCar PR followed that protocol to the letter. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E Nasty View Post
    Consider this when complaining that Indycar took too long to offer an update.

    A team of medical professionals is examining an emergent patient who on top of visible injury may have severe internal injuries that are not readily diagnosed. To have a member of this team take time from the patient to update the press officer is as ludicrous as having the press officer make a statement based on what little he has observed or fully understands. Also, Awake and alert on arrival to the medical center is a sure sign of absolutely nothing in this situation. Plenty of major head trauma patients are awake for a time after the incident only to slip away forever, including Jules Bianchi. They make announcements when they are certain about what they are telling you and not before then.
    Schumacher for sure. I never heard that Jules was conscious.

  21. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick500 View Post
    Leaving fans feeling a driver died for over an an hour, for absolutely no apparent reason, is a huge failure. Aren't we part of the sport, too, or just fodder to dismiss?
    It's quite possible he was awake and alert...but also couldn't feel anything below his neck, or move his arms and legs.

    The HANS device is probably the reason for his bruised chest...I just hope it was enough to prevent what would likely have been catastrophic cervical injury had he not been wearing it. And it still might have been.

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    Somewhere, someone wrote that our perceived right to know supersedes others right to exist. Unfortunately, our society has been groomed by 24 hour news to believe privacy for others should not exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otis View Post
    Somewhere, someone wrote that our perceived right to know supersedes others right to exist.
    I'm not in the camp that says we had a right to know. But is your argument really that your opponents are saying Wickens should be euthanized if he doesn't reveal the status of his condition? Because that's what it reads as.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncommonsense52 View Post
    I'm not in the camp that says we had a right to know. But is your argument really that your opponents are saying Wickens should be euthanized if he doesn't reveal the status of his condition? Because that's what it reads as.
    Did you read the rest of the post, or just grab that piece to argue? I suppose taken alone, that line could mean what you extrapolated from it, but it’s a reach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otis View Post
    Did you read the rest of the post, or just grab that piece to argue?
    Yeah I did. The first part of your post made an outlandish claim. The second part of your post condemned society based on the outlandish claim.

    I was hoping I misunderstood what you were saying, so that it didn't seem as ridiculous.

  26. #116
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    There is no point in saying anything until you have all the facts.
    I believe R. Miller jumped the gun and said that he had broken legs, when in fact it was ankles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by West View Post
    There is no point in saying anything until you have all the facts.
    I believe R. Miller jumped the gun and said that he had broken legs, when in fact it was ankles.
    I don't think Miller ever officially said that. Someone at the track overheard him say that off the record, and posted it on Reddit. Which then got reposted here.

  28. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Otis View Post
    Somewhere, someone wrote that our perceived right to know supersedes others right to exist. Unfortunately, our society has been groomed by 24 hour news to believe privacy for others should not exist.
    Yep, and it's the norm when there are serious incidents. Everyone wants casualties, right away. To me in these cases that is all secondary, doesn't matter...most important is that those injured are well taken care of and the emergency situation is contained, controlled or ended...news comes after the fact.

    Knowing Indycar has the best around in their safety and medical team gives me peace, I hope for the best but don't need to know anything further then they are handling it.

    It ruined me enjoying the race yesterday, anything beyond Robert walking away afterwards would have, but it's part of the risk of this sport, the only thing I hope for now is the best recovery/prognosis for Robert, everything else, including news releases are secondary.

  29. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Boweimer View Post
    I guess I didn’t realize the need to know ASAP. Sarcastically speaking , next time IC should have a reporter at the scene.. SMH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uncommonsense52 View Post
    Yeah I did. The first part of your post made an outlandish claim. The second part of your post condemned society based on the outlandish claim.

    I was hoping I misunderstood what you were saying, so that it didn't seem as ridiculous.
    Sorry if the quote was misleading. It was meant to be hyperbolic regarding a general lack of regard for others privacy.

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