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Thread: Engine Manufacturer Talks

  1. #61
    Insider Jim Wilke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdJVuky View Post
    The industry may be going to electrification, but the customers aren’t
    Word is that demand for Teslas has peaked and they are now sitting on lots, ready for buyers who are no longer standing in line.

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    Folks it's not simply about "relevant technology." It's a brand and engineering exercise. I mean, what road car application were engine makers taking from the 1990's Turbo-V8 900HP w/pop-off valve era? NASCAR hasn't been road relevant in well, never. At the end of the day, you want your mark to WIN. The stumbling block, going back to ICONIC, is money. It's about getting an OEM to commit to X number of years and money, for engine subsidies, sponsorship, and marketing.
    "If your car was a dog, then you had to figure it out and test your own limits. And we didn't go to a wind tunnel Ė we did it in the first turn at Indianapolis."

  3. #63
    Insider Jim Wilke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzlor View Post
    Folks it's not simply about "relevant technology." It's a brand and engineering exercise. I mean, what road car application were engine makers taking from the 1990's Turbo-V8 900HP w/pop-off valve era? NASCAR hasn't been road relevant in well, never.
    That's not fair. They used to run stock sheet metal. Bill Elliott lapping the field in his Thunderbird likely put a stop to that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Wilke View Post
    Word is that demand for Teslas has peaked and they are now sitting on lots, ready for buyers who are no longer standing in line.
    Itís not the electric motor turning people off to Tesla, itís pretty much everything else about the company and itís business model. It doesnít help that have almost zero quality control and their interiors feel like they where pieces together from left over parts from a 90ís Tercel.

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    Not to mention cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Wilke View Post
    That's not fair. They used to run stock sheet metal. Bill Elliott lapping the field in his Thunderbird likely put a stop to that.

    I remember there was a time when teams would run different makes from the same company (GM, Ford, Chrysler) at different tracks because the model has certain advantages at different tracks..... I kind of remember some teams running a Cougar at short tracks over the T-Bird for some reason. I seem to remember someone trying a MarkVII too. To me, NASCAR started to lose its appeal when the cars moved definitively away from being reasonable facsimiles of production cars....

    As far a relevance to the street, I think old school NASCAR and other "stock" series definitely improved road going cars by nudging automakers in the direction of improved aerodynamics and attention to such details as improved/smoothed headlights, window seals, etc. Where NASCAR has totally missed the boat is in not allowing mechanical technology to evolve naturally in lock-step with street cars. A modern street car engine, drive layout could easily perform to the level that a current NASCAR does with proper engineering.

  7. #67
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andretti91 View Post
    It’s not the electric motor turning people off to Tesla, it’s pretty much everything else about the company and it’s business model. It doesn’t help that have almost zero quality control and their interiors feel like they where pieces together from left over parts from a 90’s Tercel.
    this!

  8. #68
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
    I remember there was a time when teams would run different makes from the same company (GM, Ford, Chrysler) at different tracks because the model has certain advantages at different tracks..... I kind of remember some teams running a Cougar at short tracks over the T-Bird for some reason. I seem to remember someone trying a MarkVII too. To me, NASCAR started to lose its appeal when the cars moved definitively away from being reasonable facsimiles of production cars....

    As far a relevance to the street, I think old school NASCAR and other "stock" series definitely improved road going cars by nudging automakers in the direction of improved aerodynamics and attention to such details as improved/smoothed headlights, window seals, etc. Where NASCAR has totally missed the boat is in not allowing mechanical technology to evolve naturally in lock-step with street cars. A modern street car engine, drive layout could easily perform to the level that a current NASCAR does with proper engineering.
    How many production based racing cars actually have to be DE-Tuned from their production output just to be class eligible. I can think of quite a few lately. Racing is still a marketing exercise, especially in this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Wilke View Post
    Word is that demand for Teslas has peaked and they are now sitting on lots, ready for buyers who are no longer standing in line.
    I don't think that is accurate but some of the tax credit went away January 1st. So they expect monthly sales to be down in the US because of that.

  10. #70
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    I know where two are that have been sitting on a lot for months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    I know where two are that have been sitting on a lot for months.
    Tesla recorded profits in 2018 Q3 and Q4 and is expected to be profitable again in 2019 Q1 but Musk has already acknowledged the company needs to get a lower priced car to market to be sustainable long term. I'm not going to bet against him... lol.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Wilke View Post
    That's not fair. They used to run stock sheet metal. Bill Elliott lapping the field in his Thunderbird likely put a stop to that.

    IIRC it was more like falling a lap down, running down the field under green, and THEN lapping the field....talk about dominating.
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by dakinca View Post
    I donít think itís Audi, doesnít fit the mold for them. They will go back the FIA WEC before IndyCar.
    If any VW brand participates in LMP1, it will be Porsche.

    Indycar would be a decent fit for Audi when you think about it.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    How many production based racing cars actually have to be DE-Tuned from their production output just to be class eligible. I can think of quite a few lately. Racing is still a marketing exercise, especially in this country.
    Race engines in GTLM/GTE and are de-tuned in the sense that the road cars have higher horsepower numbers than some of the race cars. But the race engines are significantly upgraded from the production engines in other ways (mostly so that they can survive the pounding they get during races).

    Using GM as a case in point, most new street Corvettes have engines produce higher HP numbers than their GTLM counterparts. But legalizing them for racing is not just a matter of de-tuning. You have to take into account that the street engines only run at their max HP for short bursts, if at all. The racing engine is running close to max HP and max torque for the whole damn race and has to last for several races. The race engine probably doesn't run very much below 3,500 RPM during a race, whereas a street car is primarily operated well below 3,500 RPM.

    sure, 80%+ of the race engine parts are the same as the street engine parts, but the parts that are not the same are damned important.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullwinkle View Post
    Race engines in GTLM/GTE and are de-tuned in the sense that the road cars have higher horsepower numbers than some of the race cars. But the race engines are significantly upgraded from the production engines in other ways (mostly so that they can survive the pounding they get during races).

    Using GM as a case in point, most new street Corvettes have engines produce higher HP numbers than their GTLM counterparts. But legalizing them for racing is not just a matter of de-tuning. You have to take into account that the street engines only run at their max HP for short bursts, if at all. The racing engine is running close to max HP and max torque for the whole damn race and has to last for several races. The race engine probably doesn't run very much below 3,500 RPM during a race, whereas a street car is primarily operated well below 3,500 RPM.

    sure, 80%+ of the race engine parts are the same as the street engine parts, but the parts that are not the same are damned important.
    Not sure I'd say 'most new street Corvettes'...the vast majority of Corvettes have the 6.2 L LT1 rated at 455/460 hop. The Z06's supercharged 6.2L LT4 is rated at 650 hp, while the ZR1 supercharged 6.2L LT5 a whopping 755 horsepower.
    The Corvette C7.R utilizes a 5.5L normally aspirated engine estimated at 500 horsepower.

    Balance of Power ensures that various manufacture's GTLM, GTEPro/GTEAm and GTD engines will be close together in horsepower (and likely not near what they could make).

    You are so correct that it is not just a matter of detuning (though the GTD engines are pretty close to stock).

    Boy, have we wandered off topic.
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakester View Post
    Boy, have we wandered off topic.
    Sorry about that.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullwinkle View Post
    Sorry about that.
    Happened way before your post

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    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raskav View Post
    I just don't think Lamborghini is big enough to be an engine supplier for indycar.
    Yes I know they are owned by Audi which is owned by VW.
    But for the money required to be spent being an OEM, wouldn't the parent company want to do it themselves?
    VW has rarely marketed the VW brand in open wheel in NA. They have barely ever supported the massive global series named for and based entirely on their 90 year old air cooled engine and torsion beam suspension. While I agree with you as a life long VW owner, I just don't think they will use the VW brand in Indycar, even though there's probably less than a handful of people at any given Indycar race truly in the market for a Lambo. I'd be shocked to see VW use something as environmentally unpalatable as racing as a marketing tool after the diesel scandal. They are waist deep in the electric game.

  19. #79
    Insider Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buellboy View Post
    Tesla recorded profits in 2018 Q3 and Q4 and is expected to be profitable again in 2019 Q1 but Musk has already acknowledged the company needs to get a lower priced car to market to be sustainable long term. I'm not going to bet against him... lol.
    lets see if they are truly profitable without tax incentives and a ton of mainstream brands rolling out their EV's over the next 12-24 months. Tesla is a boutique brand for the people that want to be seen pretending they are eco-warriors. meanwhile, Those cars still sit unsold and they won't allow test drives.

  20. #80
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    I've done a few test drives of the Tesla Model S and the Model X. So far I've only ridden in a Model 3 (which seem to be everywhere on the streets and highways here) but I've never had Tesla refuse a test drive request. They've even called me and sent emails offering test drives.
    "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    VW has rarely marketed the VW brand in open wheel in NA. They have barely ever supported the massive global series named for and based entirely on their 90 year old air cooled engine and torsion beam suspension. While I agree with you as a life long VW owner, I just don't think they will use the VW brand in Indycar, even though there's probably less than a handful of people at any given Indycar race truly in the market for a Lambo. I'd be shocked to see VW use something as environmentally unpalatable as racing as a marketing tool after the diesel scandal. They are waist deep in the electric game.
    Globally, VW still has some fingers in the racing pie with internal combustion engines. Some by actual factory participation, others by producing a 'factory' race car for purchase by private racers with some factory support. Though only one open wheel series (not counting Formula Vee)
    World Rally Championship 2: Polo GTi R5
    Multiple TCR series: Volkswagen GTI TCR
    National Formula 3 series: Dallara Volkswagen Speiss
    RallyCross: Factory teams in both FIA World RallyCross (WRX) and US American RallyCross (ARX)

    That said, I would agree that Audi would seem to be the better IndyCar fit for a Volkswagen Group (AG) brand.

    And that said, were I to hazard a guess at a most likely third manufacturer, it would be Hyunda/Kia/Genesis.

  22. #82
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    Say what you want about Tesla but Tesla is the status car in Northwestern Europe. Not Merc, Beemer or Audi.

    The Germans are jumping through hoops trying build a competitor to

    an American car.

  23. #83
    They are pretty popular in the wine country circles here in SE Washington (mainly Walla Walla). I would venture to say I see more Teslas on the streets here than new Camaros.

  24. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Red5 View Post
    VW has rarely marketed the VW brand in open wheel in NA. They have barely ever supported the massive global series named for and based entirely on their 90 year old air cooled engine and torsion beam suspension. ...
    False. VOA spent considerable sums annually for nearly two decades marketing and promoting VW through Formula Vee and Super Vee, turning both into global sensations and indirectly leading to the death of Super Vee. Additionally, VOA was not shy about spending money on championships for VW road cars such as the Scirocco and Rabbit. The head shot money for Super Vee alone dwarfed some Indy car teams' annual budgets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by editor View Post
    False. VOA spent considerable sums annually for nearly two decades marketing and promoting VW through Formula Vee and Super Vee, turning both into global sensations and indirectly leading to the death of Super Vee. Additionally, VOA was not shy about spending money on championships for VW road cars such as the Scirocco and Rabbit. The head shot money for Super Vee alone dwarfed some Indy car teams' annual budgets.
    I think Nigel Red referred to the same thing. He just made the point the VW didn't do a whole lot. You made the opposite point based on history from the 1970s.

    BTw- I owned 1978 Rabbit.

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    You made the opposite point based on history from the 1970s.
    A group of VW Motorsport executives were killed in December of 1988 when Pan Am flight 103 was blown out of the sky over Lockerbie in Scotland. Their deaths had a lasting effect on VW's racing programs. The Super Vee series ended in the US after the 1990 season.

  27. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by LowRyter View Post
    I think Nigel Red referred to the same thing. He just made the point the VW didn't do a whole lot. You made the opposite point based on history from the 1970s.

    BTw- I owned 1978 Rabbit.
    That conclusion is unfounded. Historical ruminations had nothing to do with the statements made in post 84. Accurate, timely, verified reporting did. We, like others, spent a great deal of time and money on coverage of VW's motorsports activities both in North America and abroad. It is inaccurate to say that "VW has rarely marketed the brand in open wheel in NA." It is erroneous to represent that VOA "barely ever supported the massive global series named for and based entirely on their 90 year old air cooled [sic] engine and torsion beam suspension." You can believe that if you choose to, but such a belief would not be supported by fact.

    VW did do a whole lot; large sums were spent over a long period of time. That was all part of our coverage.
    Last edited by editor; 01-31-2019 at 07:38 AM.

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullwinkle View Post
    Race engines in GTLM/GTE and are de-tuned in the sense that the road cars have higher horsepower numbers than some of the race cars. But the race engines are significantly upgraded from the production engines in other ways (mostly so that they can survive the pounding they get during races).

    Using GM as a case in point, most new street Corvettes have engines produce higher HP numbers than their GTLM counterparts. But legalizing them for racing is not just a matter of de-tuning. You have to take into account that the street engines only run at their max HP for short bursts, if at all. The racing engine is running close to max HP and max torque for the whole damn race and has to last for several races. The race engine probably doesn't run very much below 3,500 RPM during a race, whereas a street car is primarily operated well below 3,500 RPM.

    sure, 80%+ of the race engine parts are the same as the street engine parts, but the parts that are not the same are damned important.
    To the consumer, they see fully warrantied street cars with 700+hp and racing cars with 500.... and then the PTB wonder why younger generations shrug their shoulders at most car racing in general.

  29. #89
    Generation 3 EdJVuky's Avatar
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    With Sauber becoming Alfa Romeo Racing, I would assume a greater investment from Fiat Chrysler. I would therefore guess that they are less likely to be a potential Indycar supplier.
    Third Gen Indy Fan

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdJVuky View Post
    With Sauber becoming Alfa Romeo Racing, I would assume a greater investment from Fiat Chrysler. I would therefore guess that they are less likely to be a potential Indycar supplier.
    Or perhaps Alfa decided to demand team naming rights for the same money as last year (yeah, I know I'm cynical).

    With only 2 models (3 if you count the 4C) and total 2018 sales of 23,800 vehicles in the US, I'm not sure they were ever really a candidate for an IndyCar engine manufacturer.

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