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Thread: IndyCar to offer more rear wing options at superspeedway races

  1. #31
    There is no substitute. Spike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Paff View Post
    I don't know how?
    Most likely.
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by slompappy View Post
    I was in my seat for every green lap
    That was the problem. Everyone was in there seat. No reason to stand up at all. Easily one of the most boring 500s I've been to, and I've only missed two since my first one in 1961. The one rookie in our group called the race "interesting'. Doubt that he will be back.

  3. #33
    Registered User Bobcat00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pole Day View Post
    these cars are so trouble free and computer driven that the race became a follow the leader race.
    Yeah, it was more interesting when 1/3 of the cars would drop out due to blown engines and another 1/3 would drop out due to other mechanical failures and crashes. Maybe they could have a random number generator in the engine controller and pretend some cars get blown engines. But kudos to Honda for using parts that would fail in 2017.

  4. #34
    I love this sport so much dalz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Generally speaking, the things that have the greatest effect on underbody downforce are ride height and chassis rake (angle of the car in relation to the track surface). I doubt the limited range of angle of attack adjustment allowed on that oh-so-small rear wing on the 2018 spec aero kit had much, if any, effect on underbody downforce. Besides the wing having such a small amount of surface area, it sits well above and behind the diffused exit which further limits any aerodynamic interaction between the two.
    I know, but it was in the thread about aero at Texas last year, someone quoted a blurb in an article, I was very surprised at the wing/diffuser symbiosis. I was looking for photos and videos of the speedway cars to help figure it out.
    "If you see you're gonna miss, grit your teeth."--Evel Knievel

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Generally speaking, the things that have the greatest effect on underbody downforce are ride height and chassis rake (angle of the car in relation to the track surface). I doubt the limited range of angle of attack adjustment allowed on that oh-so-small rear wing on the 2018 spec aero kit had much, if any, effect on underbody downforce. Besides the wing having such a small amount of surface area, it sits well above and behind the diffused exit which further limits any aerodynamic interaction between the two.
    I may be remembering this incorrectly.

    But I think they were have an issue with the rear wing influencing the turbulent air coming from the diffuser, which influenced the overall downforce.

    https://racer.com/2018/05/25/a-close...speedway-wing/

    Considering how the air flowing above and below the rear wing influences the air beneath it coming out from the underwingís diffuser, a wing angle change can raise or lower the amount of downforce made below the car.

    With that in mind, the full range of negative and positive wing settings can deliver 402 pounds of downforce change at the back of the cars.

  6. #36
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    I would prefer they offer up more super speedway races.
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  7. #37
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    Last years 500 was maybe the worst race I’ve ever attended. All of Rossi’s passes, just like everyone else’s were within the first 2 laps of a restart. It was garbage to watch. I’ve been to every 500 since 83. Been to several other races Michigan, Charlotte, Gateway, Kentucky, Nashville, Chicagoland, Indy GP, Mid Ohio, Milwaukee, and Road America. I’m trying to come up with a worse Indy Car race than last years 500. Nothing is coming to mind.
    " You just don't know what Indy means " Little Al

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Cosby View Post
    Last years 500 was maybe the worst race Iíve ever attended. All of Rossiís passes, just like everyone elseís were within the first 2 laps of a restart. It was garbage to watch. Iíve been to every 500 since 83. Been to several other races Michigan, Charlotte, Gateway, Kentucky, Nashville, Chicagoland, Indy GP, Mid Ohio, Milwaukee, and Road America. Iím trying to come up with a worse Indy Car race than last years 500. Nothing is coming to mind.
    you weren't at pocono last year, then.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Cosby View Post
    Last years 500 was maybe the worst race I’ve ever attended. All of Rossi’s passes, just like everyone else’s were within the first 2 laps of a restart. It was garbage to watch. I’ve been to every 500 since 83. Been to several other races Michigan, Charlotte, Gateway, Kentucky, Nashville, Chicagoland, Indy GP, Mid Ohio, Milwaukee, and Road America. I’m trying to come up with a worse Indy Car race than last years 500. Nothing is coming to mind.
    How about the Phoenix races 2016-2018? those were easily worse.
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  10. #40
    Purity in racing Cornys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    How about the Phoenix races 2016-2018? those were easily worse.
    Agreed. It could have been much worse. Just makes it feel worse knowing the difference between 2017 & 2018 at Indy.

    A great mix of the two would be nearly perfect

  11. #41
    Indy/Ovalcentric SactoIndyFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Cosby View Post
    Last years 500 was maybe the worst race I’ve ever attended. All of Rossi’s passes, just like everyone else’s were within the first 2 laps of a restart. It was garbage to watch. I’ve been to every 500 since 83. Been to several other races Michigan, Charlotte, Gateway, Kentucky, Nashville, Chicagoland, Indy GP, Mid Ohio, Milwaukee, and Road America. I’m trying to come up with a worse Indy Car race than last years 500. Nothing is coming to mind.
    I truly believe they were unprepared for the kind of heat we experienced during the race. There was no way...or for that matter, no place in the country prior that where they could have tested the new aero kit in that configuration in time to deal with that amount of heat and humidity. But now they have that data in case it happens again, and they have since adjusted with those kinds of pieces they have come up with.

    As much as we want to have every 500 be thrilling, edge of your seat, I appreciated what it was sitting in Tower Terrace: whoever could figure out to overcome the heat and humidity and with skill, engineering, and some dumb luck, would win. That was definitely Will Power...because Ed was not too far off in case he faltered.

    Looking forward to this year's race and the unpredictability it will bring!
    RIP Dan Wheldon :(

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  12. #42
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    The aero package for the 2018 Indy 500 was pure garbage. Utter incompetence beyond measure. Everyone started the race with the rear wing at the AOA stop. With that, you know something is horribly wrong. The drivers wildly lacked grip, and hence there was very little passing. When the handle would go off a car, everyone behind the Iíll handling car would back up too.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by SactoIndyFan View Post
    I truly believe they were unprepared for the kind of heat we experienced during the race. There was no way...or for that matter, no place in the country prior that where they could have tested the new aero kit in that configuration in time to deal with that amount of heat and humidity. But now they have that data in case it happens again, and they have since adjusted with those kinds of pieces they have come up with.

    As much as we want to have every 500 be thrilling, edge of your seat, I appreciated what it was sitting in Tower Terrace: whoever could figure out to overcome the heat and humidity and with skill, engineering, and some dumb luck, would win. That was definitely Will Power...because Ed was not too far off in case he faltered.

    Looking forward to this year's race and the unpredictability it will bring!
    That's the trap NASCAR got itself into. Every race has to be the greatest thing in the world Occasionally there's going to be a crappy, boring, mediocre race put on. It happens. It happens in every other professional sport including Football who's schedule length for most teams is 1 weekend less than IC.

    Also if your going to complain about the quality of the 2018 I500 under green (which everyone has a point, it wasn't the best), then at least give it credit for the spectacular restarts we had because of the multiple yellows. The race was not a complete disaster. Between the restarts and Will Power's emotion from winning, I thought it brought it from unspectacular to solid.
    I'd rather have 10% of the world interested in the ICS than 50% of US that NASCAR currently has

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambig88 View Post
    I may be remembering this incorrectly.

    But I think they were have an issue with the rear wing influencing the turbulent air coming from the diffuser, which influenced the overall downforce.

    https://racer.com/2018/05/25/a-close...speedway-wing/
    I had read the article when it originally appeared and was surprised how much influence the small wing had on the diffuser. Good catch to recall the article. Did I miss Spike correcting himself on how little effect the wing had on underbody downforce?

  15. #45
    I love this sport so much dalz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan_Weber View Post
    The aero package for the 2018 Indy 500 was pure garbage...The drivers wildly lacked grip, and hence there was very little passing. When the handle would go off a car, everyone behind the Iíll handling car would back up too.
    BUT...butbutbut, I thought that wings "were a crutch"(Foyt, a half-century ago)? I thought the key to REAL racing and REAL drivers being back in charge was to take away grip and let them skate around and we'll see who can win without vacuum cleaners aiding these modern panty-waist pretenders? And maybe a smaller team with a brilliant but overlooked driver will show 'em all how it's done?

  16. #46
    Subversively normal skypigeon's Avatar
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    2016: "The cars have too much grip! There's too much passing! What a disaster!"

    2018: "The cars don't have enough grip! There's not enough passing! What a disaster!"

    ... and this is why TrackForum is fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skypigeon View Post
    2016: "The cars have too much grip! There's too much passing! What a disaster!"

    2018: "The cars don't have enough grip! There's not enough passing! What a disaster!"

    ... and this is why TrackForum is fun.
    Even at 28 my memory is too short for a real comparison, but, the package last year -was- a disaster at pretty much every oval track. Unlike certain people I'm not going to claim myself an expert and diagnose the root cause of the problem. But something needs to be changed.

  18. #48
    Insider Chris Paff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bduddy View Post
    Even at 28 my memory is too short for a real comparison, but, the package last year -was- a disaster at pretty much every oval track. Unlike certain people I'm not going to claim myself an expert and diagnose the root cause of the problem. But something needs to be changed.
    Spot on

    I wish INDYCAR would worry just as much about the oval package as they do for the road/street package
    Last edited by Chris Paff; 02-01-2019 at 10:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Paff View Post
    Spot on

    I wish INDYCAR would worry just as much about the oval package as they do for the road/street package
    I think they do worry about the oval package, hence the testing they've done and the changes they are making.

  20. #50
    Insider Chris Paff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHRfan#1 View Post
    I think they do worry about the oval package, hence the testing they've done and the changes they are making.
    If they really cared they would have fixed the Phoenix package in 2017 after knowing the package in 2016 was horrific for Phoenix. They did nothing due to costs.. The horrible racing killed the event.. As a huge oval fan I would never have paid to see that joke of a race after 3 straight years of horrible racing there

    The point is how many times they test at Sebring or other road courses over and over again.. The racing does not change at those tracks but they keep testing.. Wish that attention was put towards oval tracks

  21. #51
    I love this sport so much dalz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Paff View Post
    If they really cared they would have fixed the Phoenix package in 2017 after knowing the package in 2016 was horrific for Phoenix. They did nothing due to costs.. The horrible racing killed the event.. As a huge oval fan I would never have paid to see that joke of a race after 3 straight years of horrible racing there

    The point is how many times they test at Sebring or other road courses over and over again.. The racing does not change at those tracks but they keep testing.. Wish that attention was put towards oval tracks
    If you weren't happy with Phoenix '18, there is no satisfying you with modern open-wheel short oval racing. I thought you'd be smart enough to know that a 1 mile oval will never be a 2-wide IRL Texas draft derby. Maybe they could use "restrictor plates" and 250hp and about 140mph top speeds, that might get us in the ballpark of the Perfect Paff Short Oval Experience. Should they try that?

    And jeez learn to f'ng punctuate. Do you think you've created some kind of "signature"?

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bduddy View Post
    Even at 28 my memory is too short for a real comparison, but, the package last year -was- a disaster at pretty much every oval track. Unlike certain people I'm not going to claim myself an expert and diagnose the root cause of the problem. But something needs to be changed.
    It was good at Texas and Iowa (different aero kits). Lousy at Indy and Pocono; that can be fixed. I don't think Gateway will ever be good.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by bduddy View Post
    Even at 28 my memory is too short for a real comparison, but, the package last year -was- a disaster at pretty much every oval track. Unlike certain people I'm not going to claim myself an expert and diagnose the root cause of the problem. But something needs to be changed.

    the race last year was like a 500 from the 1990s. Was quite refreshing to see

    I never want to see plate type racing that we saw in the DW12 era

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstonracefan View Post
    the race last year was like a 500 from the 1990s. Was quite refreshing to see

    I never want to see plate type racing that we saw in the DW12 era
    See that’s how I remember it

    I don’t remember it being bad like someone this thread suggest

    I remember seeing that the better car was able to hold its lead which is important

    I remember seeing that when the better car was out front they could pull away at times which is important

    Now maybe there were times where the better car was following and had a little trouble passing but I don’t remember it being as bad as say 08 or 09 where it seemed like even though the cars were close on the track they might as well have been a straightaway apart because they had no chance at a pass

    I remember leaving the track and saying to my brother “this felt like the 1993 race”

    I’m gonna watch the replay this weekend and see if I’m misremembering
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  25. #55
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    I thought David Land, the guy on youtube said that last years is still among the best in terms of lead changes if you take away the DW12 races.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstonracefan View Post
    the race last year was like a 500 from the 1990s. Was quite refreshing to see

    I never want to see plate type racing that we saw in the DW12 era

    Unfortunately, that's exactly what quite a few expect to see everywhere: cars side by side, inches apart, pointless passes lap after lap for 500 miles. Indycar short track racing is just never going to be like that and phoenix certainly never was.

    I'm with you and I' was ok with last year's race but that comes from what we actually had, fairly large performance discrepancies in the field top to bottom like the 80's and 90's. Drivers and fans wanted more difficult cars to drive and that's what we have. I love seeing cars getting loose, sliding etc, not slotcars on an AFX track.
    Last edited by Nigel Red5; 02-07-2019 at 10:12 AM.

  27. #57
    Energizer Bunny StatMan's Avatar
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    Theoretically at least, more options will lead to different cars/teams choosing differently for the same race, which should make for more excitement and more skill as there is now one additional factor to distinguish car A from car B?

    2016: "The cars have too much grip! There's too much passing! What a disaster!"

    2018: "The cars don't have enough grip! There's not enough passing! What a disaster!"
    1 - Is it the same people saying both though?

    2 - Even if it is, that's not necessarily hypocrisy. With pretty much anything in life, it's possible to err too far in multiple different directions.
    Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the Keenest of them all?

  28. #58
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    Good post, StatMan. Well said.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalz View Post
    BUT...butbutbut, I thought that wings "were a crutch"(Foyt, a half-century ago)? I thought the key to REAL racing and REAL drivers being back in charge was to take away grip and let them skate around and we'll see who can win without vacuum cleaners aiding these modern panty-waist pretenders? And maybe a smaller team with a brilliant but overlooked driver will show 'em all how it's done?
    But, but, but.....
    They were not without downforce, but lacked a package that allowed proper adjustment AND enough downforce. I was there in the late 60s as a kid, and trust me, we were not watching that. Again, if everyone starts at the max AOA stop, you blew it. When the handle went off Danica’s car, everyone behind her backed up too. They couldn’t pass. Not artificial passing with too much downforce like recent years, but a handfull of ill car that has no grip behind another car. The drivers hated the package. I did too. The good news is that this isn’t very hard to fix. Somewhere in between the too much and not enough package is the Goldie Locks just right package. My guess is that this year will be much better.

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