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Thread: How long did the Boyle Maserati run At INDY?

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    Been at Indy since 1956! ZOOOM's Avatar
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    How long did the Boyle Maserati run At INDY?

    I'll bet someone here has the answer. Shaw bought the car in 1938 as I recall. I think it was used at Indy until at least 1952. Am I right?
    Does it hole the record for longevity?
    ZOOOM
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOOOM
    I'll bet someone here has the answer. Shaw bought the car in 1938 as I recall. I think it was used at Indy until at least 1952. Am I right?
    Does it hole the record for longevity?
    ZOOOM
    Hey ZOOOM,

    It's a lazy Sat. AM, so no reff books for me.

    Not sure. A loooong time. But, if it gets any longevity record there has to be a huge astrik for WW II.

    BTW: Wasn't there more that 1 Boyle Maserati?

    And a ques for you. Was Shaw pre-war Maserati the basis for the post WW II
    Maserati 4/CLT F-1 car.

    They sure made pretty racing cars. The 250F is still my near favorite openwheel car (tied with a car used to run Ascot Legion). And some glorious Millers (Packard Cable Spl) & Bugattis too.

    All time #1 is the Belanger 99 as it was when Lee Wallard won Indy '51.

    edit [And a ques for you. Was Shaw pre-war Maserati the basis for the post WW II Maserati 4/CLT F-1 car?

    I guess that's a good Don Capps, ensign14, Darren Gilpin, Vitesse question if they still come around....which I sure hope they do]
    Last edited by boardtrack; 06-09-2007 at 11:32 AM.

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    BTW: Speaking of race cars running a long time.

    IIRC: If my memory is still functioning some, this would be a fabled car. Didn't Mario Andretti make his sprint car debut in a Ted Horn car (the one in which he was killed?)

    [EDIT: IIRC Horn called the car, 'Baby'?]
    Last edited by boardtrack; 06-09-2007 at 01:46 PM.

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    To the best of my knowledge the Boyle Maserati ran from 1938 through 1950 although it may have run after that. Shaw and Joe Boyle went to Italy to pick up the car in 1938 and ran it in that years Indy race. They finished second and felt they needed more horsepower. In 1939 they returned with a more powerful engine, albeit only 91 c.i., and won. After repeating the win in 1940 they were well on the way to a third straight win in 1941 when a wheel broke. There is another whole story about that. The car was run post WWII by others and Ted Horn won the pole with it in 1947. No less than Bill Vukovich used the Maserati to pass his rookie test at the Speedway in 1950. After that I lost track of the car. Perhaps someone else can pick it up from there.
    Dwight Clock

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    Planning dalz's Avatar
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    I remember looking in the old Jack Fox Indy history book drivers were at least still trying to make the show in the Maserati into the mid-50s. Beautiful car. One of the original torsion-bar suspension systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwcremax
    ................they were well on the way to a third straight win in 1941 when a wheel broke. There is another whole story about that .....
    ZOOOM, you probably know the story. There was a huge fire in 'Gasoline Alley' the very early AM of the 1941 500.

    IIRC: Shaw had marked a few wheels he didn't trust to be used in the race & marked them with chalk (or whatever).

    Shaw was comfortably leading...the class of the field, when he had a bad accident. For a time, he was actually paralyzed in the car.

    Shaw believed the wheel failure causing the accident, was one he'd marked not to use. But the 'chalk marks' were washed off by water fighting the fire.

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    Truth hunter
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    Quote Originally Posted by boardtrack
    edit [And a ques for you. Was Shaw pre-war Maserati the basis for the post WW II Maserati 4/CLT F-1 car?

    I guess that's a good Don Capps, ensign14, Darren Gilpin, Vitesse question if they still come around....which I sure hope they do]


    The Boyle car is one of my favourite pre-war GP cars. It's a regular at Goodwood and I always make a point of saying "Hello".

    But apart from the name it has no direct connection to the 4CLT, which was the post-war development of the definitive Maserati voiturette, the 4CL (4C = 4 cylinders). WW2 robbed us of the prospect of a full-blown contest between the Maseratis, the Alfa 158s and Mercedes Benz W165s, although the 4CL was perhaps the weakest of those three.

    Incidentally, the 4CLT designation was never officially used by the company: it seems to have been an invention of the British press to identify the later tubular chassis versions and was adopted by the rest of the world. IIRC the company just called them 4CL/48 (Info from Alessandro Silva).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitesse
    .......WW2 robbed us of the prospect of a full-blown contest between the Maseratis, the Alfa 158s and Mercedes Benz W165s.....
    In that match, I'd go with the Alfa 158(+159), also a Voiturette development.

    Formula One WC (1950 -1951)
    Designer Gioacchino Colombo
    Chassis - tubular frame
    Suspension (front) Trailing arm, transverse leaf springs, hydraulic dampers
    Suspension (rear) Swing axle*, transverse leaf spring, hydraulic dampers
    *De-Dion-axle was one of the last modifications 1951.

    Engine Alfa Romeo 158/159 1,497 cc straight-8, Roots-type supercharger front mounted. 2-stage 425bhp @ 9300rpm

    Transmission Alfa 4-speed Tyres Pirelli
    Fuel Shell (98.5 % methanol, 1 % Castor oil, 0.5 % water)
    Entrant Alfa Romeo SpA

    BTW: Among the many drivers is a 'Hall of Fame'......Emilio Villoresi, Achille Varzi, Giuseppe Farina. Alberto Ascari, Juan Manuel Fangio


    (I realize that's a bit silly, because if Mercedes kept developing..........skies the limit!)

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    The Shaw Maserati ran at Indy in 1951 with Johnny McDowell, who had replaced the Maserati engine with an Offenhause the previous winter. The gas tank split after 15 laps to end his race. Roger Wollcot, a close friend of Tony Hulman was the owner at the time. Herb Porter was chief mechanic in his first Indy effort.

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    This question was posed here about 5 years ago and it seems there were several Maserati Chassis around with numbers to ID. At that time it seemed that no one could say that the Shaw/boyle was the one that ran through the early 50's. The fact that a Maserati ran has many connecting it as one car, I mean Vuky did his drivers test in it, but then the driver's test didn't start until 52 was it??/ Lots of myths, It was no doubt a great car/concept but one car running all those years, appears to have little chance, in my opinion.

    I have been wrong before so maybe someone has real info. I do remember multi frame numbers though in the previous thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOOOM
    I'll bet someone here has the answer. Shaw bought the car in 1938 as I recall. I think it was used at Indy until at least 1952. Am I right?
    Does it hole the record for longevity?
    ZOOOM
    The Maserati (3032) may have been bought in 1938, but it did not arrive in the US until early 1939, March or April. It had been driven by Zehender in the 1938 Italian Grand Prix, I believe.
    3032 is supposed to have had 10 entries at IMS. 9 for sure, with Shaw 1939 to 41, Horn 1946 to 48, Wallard in 1949, Bergere/Vukovich in 1950 and McDowell in 1951. Very likely the car Jacky Holmes had in 1952 (I'm not 100% sure on this).

    I think the record for a single chassis at IMS is a Cooper frame that had 19 entries over the years.

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    IIRC from reading Shaws book back when I was a kid, Shaw originally wanted a 3 litre but was surprised to get the blown 91 cu in.

    Once Shaw proved the car at Indy, several other teams bought massers. I think they were the bigger engined cars. All together I think there were three different cars. One of which wound up at Pikes Peak as a winner.

    As far as the fire before the race in the garages, Shaw did his own wheel ballancing. He had one tire/rim combo that he just couldn't get right. He gave up on it and marked it with chalk" OK bal/use last" The subsequent fire in the garages and the water the fire Dept used to put it out caused the chalk marks to be washed off.

    More interesting than the car itself was the guy named Boyle. He was known in Chicago as "Umbrella Mike" Boyle. He was reputedly pretty well mobed up.
    Always wondered how Shaw wound up driving for him?
    Wish I hadn't lost the book about 40 years ago...
    ZOOOM
    Last edited by ZOOOM; 06-10-2007 at 12:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOOOM
    IIRC from reading Shaws book back when I was a kid, Shaw originally wanted a 3 litre but was surprised to get the blown 91 cu in.

    Once Shaw proved the car at Indy, several other teams bought massers. I think they were the bigger engined cars. All together I think there were three different cars. One of which wound up at Pikes Peak as a winner.

    As far as the fire before the race in the garages, Shaw did his own wheel ballancing. He had one tire/rim combo that he just couldn't get right. He gave up on it and marked it with chalk" OK bal/use last" The subsequent fire in the garages and the water the fire Dept used to put it out caused the chalk marks to be washed off.

    More interesting than the car itself was the guy named Boyle. He was known in Chicago as "Umbrella Mike" Boyle. He was reputedly pretty well mobed up.
    Always wondered how Shaw wound up driving for him?
    Wish I hadn't lost the book about 40 years ago...
    ZOOOM
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOOOM
    .............More interesting than the car itself was the guy named Boyle....."Umbrella Mike" Boyle. He was reputedly pretty well mobed up.
    Ahaaaaaaaaaa.........the 'Good Old Days' when Chicago still had Irish gangsters!


    Quote Originally Posted by ZOOOM
    Always wondered how Shaw wound up driving for him?
    Obviously, Mike made Wilbur an offer, 'he couldn't refuse.'

  15. #15
    Checked the Leif Snellman site:

    Code:
    The Maserati 8CTF Indianapolis record: 
    YEAR DRIVER     ENTRANT                      RESULTS  CHASSIS  COMMENTS
     1939 Shaw       (Boyle Racing Headquarters)      1st    3032
     1940 Shaw       (Boyle Racing Headquarters)      1st    3032
     1940 Dreyfus    (Lucy O'Reilly Schell)           DNQ        Misunderstood qualifying rules.
     1940 Le Begue   (Lucy O'Reilly Schell)          10th 
     1941 Shaw       (Boyle Racing Headquarters)     18th    3032
     1941 Nalon      (Elgin Piston Pin)              15th 
     1941 Nalon      (Elgin Piston Pin)              26th 
     1946 Horn       (Boyle Racing Headquarters)      3rd    3032
     1946 Snowberger (Jim Hussey's/R.A. Cott)        12th    3030   
     1946 Andres     (Elgin Piston Pin)               4th    3031
     1947 Horn       (Bennett/H.C. Henning)           3rd    3032   Painted black/gold 
     1947 Snowberger (Federal Enqineering/R.A. Cott) 12th    3030
     1948 Horn       (Bennett/H.C. Henning)           4th    3032   Painted black/gold 
     1948 Russo      (Federal Engineering/R.A. Cott) 32th    3030
     1949 Wallard    (Indianapolis Cars)             23th    3032   Painted black 
     1949 Hanks      (Robert Flavell?)                DNQ    3030
     1950 Vukovich   (Indianapolis Cars)              DNQ    3032   Painted Black
     1950 Webb       (Fadely-Anderson/R.A. Cott)     20th    3030   Offenhauser 4.5L engine
     1951 McDowell   (W.J./Maserati Race Cars)       32th    3030   Offenhauser 4.5L engine
     1952 Sennett    (Joe Barzda)                     DNQ    3031    
     1953 ?          (Joe Barzda)                     DNQ    3031   
     1954 ?          (Joe Barzda)                     DNQ    3031
    The post-war 4CL series was a new design, but essentially followed the same pattern only with a 1.5-litre four-cylinder design.
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    Boy that list brings back memories!

    It looks like Rene Dreyfus drove another Maser in 1940. He came over from France to drive for Lucy O'Reiley Shell. (yes, THAT Shell)
    It's a good thing the war came along for Rene. He got stuck over here and turned to Restaurantering. He opened arguably one of the most famous (racing themed) restaurants in New York, The Chanticlear (something like that my French is pretty poor)
    GREAT French Restaurant with hundreds of signed pictures of all the famous drivers. Had the pleasure of dining there when I was 16!
    ZOOOM

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    The new Davidson book has some info on the 1941 garage fire I haven't seen before. It says that George Barringer's car was being fueled in the garage area, while the Thorne team was doing some last-minute welding in an adjacent garage. There was a flash fire, and the Barringer car was utterly destroyed. If that's true, they were lucky there wasn't an explosion.

  18. #18
    Talk about Shaw cars...I've recently develped a curiousity about Shaw's 1936 car. It was very unusual looking with a bulbous nose and a very low air intake. I always thougt it odd, but have come to appreciate that it was way ahead of its time...even possibly generating downforce.

    The car was evidently designed by Stevens and finished 7th its first year, then won in 1937 and finished 2nd in 1938. Then it appears Rose drove the car to 8th in 1939 and Devore to 18th in 1940. Frank Wearne finished 8th in 1941 and 1946. Paul Russo 30th in 1947 and Joey Chitwood 17th in 1948. That's all I could trace in the Popely Indy Chronicals book.

    Does anyone know anything about this car. It appears to have had a very long life.

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    Been at Indy since 1956! ZOOOM's Avatar
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    IIRC Shaw was something of a maverik. If I remember in his book, Shaw was always looking for Penske's unfair advantage. He built the car in '36 I think, he called it the "pay car" because he hoped for a big payday with it.

    ZOOOM

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    Shaw was also a very calculating competitor. Prior to each 500 he competed in he would figure out, quite accurately as a rule, what speed he needed to average to win. And he would come very close to what he had worked out unless he had misfortune of some kind. From 1937 through 1941 his record at Indy was phenomenal. A win in '37, 2nd in '38, wins in '39 & '40, and a crash while leading in '41 due to a failed wheel that probably shouldn't have been on the car.

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    I took this at Indy several yeas ago it this the Boyle Maserati?


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    Shaw's "Pay Car" had the dubious distinction of taking two drivers to their graves! George Barringer was killed in the car in 1946 at Lakewood Park in Atlanta. Indy winner George Robson was also killed in the crash. In 1949, George Metzler died behind the wheel of the Shaw car while trying to qualify at Indy. By this time the car had been modified quite a bit. I've never been able to find out what happened to it after that. The general consensus is that it was scrapped and lost to history although I've read reports that it might still exist.

    The other interesting fact is that it was involved in the deaths of three drivers named George! How odd is that??
    Real drivers don't need fenders!

  23. #23
    Thanks for the info Mogilla. Too bad the car was lost....though it looked quite different in the later pictures. 1936 to 1949 at Indy....now that's a long run, even with the war years! I wonder how much it was used at tracks other than Indy since all other tracks appeared to be dirt at the time and many Indy cars were built for just that one race. The George issue sure is weird.
    Last edited by ArtVandalay; 06-27-2007 at 12:02 PM.

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    Planning dalz's Avatar
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    The Johnson Indy website says the actual Shaw winner is restored and in the hands of the museum. Could it really be another Mas from that era?

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    I was keeping my eyes open in Shaw's biography for any reference to Boyle's mob ties, but there aren't any...
    I can't remember how Boyle approached him to drive the car in the first place, but it seemed lots of car owners came to Shaw since he was such an obvious talent behind the wheel....
    The Pay Car was certainly cool-looking and I bet there was some downforce generated with the swoopy front end- Shaw seemed to take quite a bit of credit for designing the car in his book IIRC

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    Been at Indy since 1956! ZOOOM's Avatar
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    I just Googled "Umbrella Mike Boyle" and found a book written by Brock Yates called, "Umbrella Mike, The true story of the Chicago Gangster behind the Indy 500".

    I gotta get THAT book!
    ZOOOM

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ZOOOM
    I just Googled "Umbrella Mike Boyle" and found a book written by Brock Yates called, "Umbrella Mike, The true story of the Chicago Gangster behind the Indy 500".

    I gotta get THAT book!
    ZOOOM

    I have Yates' book. While it will give you the background on Boyle and his racing team - yes, he was part of the Chicago mob - it also lacks in many areas. It's worth reading, but if you're like me, you'll end up feeling like you read a book that's more about the history of the Maserati factory racing efforts, than Umberlla Mike Boyle. I rate it a 6 out of 10 stars.

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