"F1-lite" still won't cut it.

**ChrisB** · 02-19-2008 07:08 AM

So the problem of 2 competing American "formula car" series may be over... but there's still another problem... the same problem that was there in the mid 90's when this thing started...

Indycar is still very much an "F1-lite" or "F1-reject" series with cars that are dumbed-down versions of F1 cars with mostly drivers who were on an F1 career path who didn't make it there.

Is the audience still American? And how many American winners did ICS or CCWS have last year? How will a singular series solve this?

Indy cars in the form of "formula cars" stuck to the ground with massive amounts of downforce has run its course... its time for something new... something with relevance to the majority of the rest of American OW racing.

**doitagain** · 02-19-2008 07:23 AM

Presumably, it will be easier for a single series to clarify and focus its energies and direction.

**BSJracing** · 02-19-2008 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisB

So the problem of 2 competing American "formula car" series may be over... but there's still another problem... the same problem that was there in the mid 90's when this thing started...

Indycar is still very much an "F1-lite" or "F1-reject" series with cars that are dumbed-down versions of F1 cars with mostly drivers who were on an F1 career path who didn't make it there.

Is the audience still American? And how many American winners did ICS or CCWS have last year? How will a singular series solve this?

Indy cars in the form of "formula cars" stuck to the ground with massive amounts of downforce has run its course... its time for something new... something with relevance to the majority of the rest of American OW racing.

It worked in the 80's and 90's...for a large segment of the American sports fan, it just didn't work for a minority who lament the loss of the short track heritage. I'm willing to give it a try under one roof before I declare it a failure

**Truth Detector** · 02-19-2008 07:36 AM

Well, that didn't take long.

**Turn13** · 02-19-2008 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by Truth Detector

Well, that didn't take long.

Heck, it never stopped, and they've been heating it up the last few days

I think some people are afraid of success

**StatMan** · 02-19-2008 05:15 PM

Indycar is still very much an "F1-lite" or "F1-reject" series with cars that are dumbed-down versions of F1 cars

Adding more complicated expensive tech systems to the cars won't make the series any better though.

**RS2** · 02-19-2008 05:27 PM

"F1-lite" still won't cut it"

Sure it will. Did before just fine.

**SpeedwayRyan** · 02-19-2008 05:28 PM

CCWS was F1 Lite. ICS runs on plenty of ovals, and is unique in that regard. I'll still never understand those who care one way or another about whether drivers (or drivers that win) are American. I can understand that having American drivers win might increase the American fan base...but I just can't see why. I tune in to watch exciting racing and cheer for my favorite drivers, and their nationality has nothing to do with it.

All the xenophobic racing fans can stick to NASCAR and making racist remarks directed at guys with Juan Pablo Montoya T-shirts on...why would we want 'em?

**Mario4ever** · 02-19-2008 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisB

So the problem of 2 competing American "formula car" series may be over... but there's still another problem... the same problem that was there in the mid 90's when this thing started...

Indycar is still very much an "F1-lite" or "F1-reject" series with cars that are dumbed-down versions of F1 cars with mostly drivers who were on an F1 career path who didn't make it there.

Is the audience still American? And how many American winners did ICS or CCWS have last year? How will a singular series solve this?

Indy cars in the form of "formula cars" stuck to the ground with massive amounts of downforce has run its course... its time for something new... something with relevance to the majority of the rest of American OW racing.

Well let's rain on the parade before it ever gets started.

**Indy505** · 02-19-2008 05:32 PM

AOW was not F1 lite in the early to middle '90's. Senna tested with Penske and Nigel Mansel had come here as the defending World Champion. As long as there are ovals on the AOW schedule, it will never be anything like F1.

**infoxicated** · 02-19-2008 05:36 PM

IndyCar is only F1 lite so long as the core of the series keeps getting polluted by more road courses.

If the American casual sports fan was interested in F1 style racing then there'd be two F1 races on the calendar, an A1GP race in every back yard, and Champ Car would have had a queue of cities as long as Robin Miller's source list trying to conjure up a festival of racing for them.

Oval racing is the identity of the IndyCar series - sure, some diversity is nice, but when we're adding tat like Mid-Ohio and Infineon that does nothing to show the series in a good light as far as racing is concerned, we're muddying the water.

I think the chassis change should be a brave step away from the F1 silhouette that the Dallara has become, and the core of the series should be strengthened by more marquee events.

The Indianapolis 500 Mile Race will always be just that - running for 500 miles at Michigan or giving Eddie Gossage a 500 mile event at TMS isn't going to take anything away from the tradition and heritage of the Indy 500, but it might just serve to stop every race on the calendar other than Indy seeming irrelevant to the mass market.

**Field of 33** · 02-19-2008 05:39 PM

Yep, it's time for something new. Let's get rid of the asphalt, hell get rid of the bricks, and make IMS a dirt track. Then we can run the Silver Crown cars. I'm sure that will solve all the problems.

**DaveL** · 02-19-2008 05:47 PM

Even though it was the IRL that has come out the last man standing in this war, the vast majority of the car owners are from the same cadre that made up CART in 1995. The history of the IRL since the teams from CART came over has shown that Tony George has at least learned the lesson that owners put the cars on the track and their wants cannot be ignored, hence the road and street races among other moves away from the original stated goals of the IRL.

Like it or not, the sport will be competed among RE winged high downforce formula cars driven by good many foreign drivers. And although no one knows what the break down will be in terms of percentages in the years to come, a significant amount of races will be competed on road and street courses.

What you want will never happen without another split. Tony George seems quite comfortable with running "F1-lite" as you call it. As much as I didn't want the outcome be this way, I've made my peace with the fact that Tony George will be running the sport. Best you, and the others who are still dreaming of the "all oval all American" series, do the same.

**Jimmy Hendricks** · 02-19-2008 06:08 PM

What you want will never happen without another split

.

The next split will mean that AOW dies and the sport has to be rebuilt from the ground up. It will "split" because all the old owners (and there are a TON of old owners) have retired or died and there is no one coming to replace them or care about the history of Indy Car Racing.

And, if they follow the same flawed plan that CART I had, that day will come.

So enjoy your CART series, as it comes back to life. And, in a few years, when there are about 4-5 American drivers and 4-5 ovals left, and NO ONE in America still cares about the sport, and NASCAR is still getting all the fans and all the TV ratings, then maybe you all will have learned something.

**hdolan** · 02-19-2008 06:21 PM

"Like it or not, the sport will be competed among RE winged high downforce formula cars driven by good many foreign drivers. And although no one knows what the break down will be in terms of percentages in the years to come, a significant amount of races will be competed on road and street courses."

Yep...

**MoparsRule** · 02-19-2008 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisB

"F1-lite" still won't cut it..

Ummmm... I'm pretty sure that is why CART has now died, twice.

**mdharter** · 02-19-2008 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisB

So the problem of 2 competing American "formula car" series may be over... but there's still another problem... the same problem that was there in the mid 90's when this thing started...

Indycar is still very much an "F1-lite" or "F1-reject" series with cars that are dumbed-down versions of F1 cars with mostly drivers who were on an F1 career path who didn't make it there.

Is the audience still American? And how many American winners did ICS or CCWS have last year? How will a singular series solve this?

Indy cars in the form of "formula cars" stuck to the ground with massive amounts of downforce has run its course... its time for something new... something with relevance to the majority of the rest of American OW racing.

Sticking the engines in the front is not going to solve the problem you think there is. If you want to watch front engine race cars, go to a nascar race, go to a usac sprint car race, etc...

The roadster has been dead for many years, those "dumbed down" formula cars are "IndyCars". They are what americans have come to know as an "IndyCar". You think a USAC midget, sprint, or silver crown car is not "dumbed down?" Not much has changed on those in the last 50 years, sure, another engine, the chassis's have gotten better... But that's about it...

A good driver can drive anything, doesn't matter if it's a stock car, a midget, or an IndyCar. Those wings and sleek lines is what made people come to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway when everybody was chasing the 200mph barrier. The current crop of cars is not the problem.

Indianapolis is always going to attract drivers from around the world, it always has. Have you looked back in the history of the manufactures and drivers who have competed and what country they were from? They (those foreigners you speak of) have been coming here since day one.

Just because at one time the road to Indy came through USAC, but this is not the 60's. You were probably a Sam Hornish Jr. fan when he was racing here, right? last time I checked, he didn't come here from USAC, but you rooted for him because he was an american, and that's great. But don't close your eyes to the rest of the world. I want to see guys like Tony Kanaan, Helio Castroneves, Dan Weldon and others battle it out. It shouldn't matter where they are from, as long as they have the ability.

I have friends who never even heard of guys like Tony Stewart, Ryan Newman and others before they got a chance at a big ride. Just goes to show you that people don't follow the smaller series of racing. Sure there are die-hard fans, and people who go every now and then, but to the average person, the big series make the news, and those big series make the driver. When those drivers make it on the 6 o'clock news and are in every paper in the country and the rest of the media picks up on them, that's when they get noticed, just ask any average Joe who Danica Patrick is, I'm sure they couldn't tell you who she drives for, or what she has raced in the past or if she has even won a race, but they will know she is an IndyCar driver (or at least a racecar driver). Betcha a good portion of the population knows who Helio Castroneves is now also, and last time I checked he didn't come from USAC or even this country. But I know my mom is a fan of him.

Why do you even watch IndyCar racing if you don't like the cars or the drivers? Is it just something for you to complain about?

**hdolan** · 02-19-2008 06:48 PM

"Indianapolis is always going to attract drivers from around the world, it always has. Have you looked back in the history of the manufactures and drivers who have competed and what country they were from? They (those foreigners you speak of) have been coming here since day one."

Not to be argumentative...but, a fact remains...from the thirties until well after the rear engined revolution, Indy, and the Championship Trail, had very few foreign drivers...the tendency to overstate the importance of foreign drivers has increased over the past ten years...I believe a cursory glance at American open wheel history will bear me out here...

**mdharter** · 02-19-2008 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by hdolan

"Indianapolis is always going to attract drivers from around the world, it always has. Have you looked back in the history of the manufactures and drivers who have competed and what country they were from? They (those foreigners you speak of) have been coming here since day one."

Not to be argumentative...but, a fact remains...from the thirties until well after the rear engined revolution, Indy, and the Championship Trail, had very few foreign drivers...the tendency to overstate the importance of foreign drivers has increased over the past ten years...I believe a cursory glance at American open wheel history will bear me out here...

Hey Dolan,
Oh, I agree, but at the same time, Indy has been an attraction around the world, it's one of the most prestigious races in the world. So that will attract drivers and other influences from other parts of the world no matter what decade it is.

Everybody wants to win that race. So if it takes a better mousetrap to do that, then call it a little green Lotus...

**Racewriter** · 02-19-2008 07:31 PM

The heart attack patient has been merged with the cancer patient.

CART was able to leverage Indy to build a road racing series - but they had 70 years of healthy Indy 500 momentum to build on. Now, Indy itself needs something given back. It's in no condition to be used as a lever yet again.

**BADGER** · 02-19-2008 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by BSJracing

It worked in the 80's and 90's...for a large segment of the American sports fan, it just didn't work for a minority who lament the loss of the short track heritage. I'm willing to give it a try under one roof before I declare it a failure

**BADGER** · 02-19-2008 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy Hendricks

.

The next split will mean that AOW dies and the sport has to be rebuilt from the ground up. It will "split" because all the old owners (and there are a TON of old owners) have retired or died and there is no one coming to replace them or care about the history of Indy Car Racing.

And, if they follow the same flawed plan that CART I had, that day will come.

So enjoy your CART series, as it comes back to life. And, in a few years, when there are about 4-5 American drivers and 4-5 ovals left, and NO ONE in America still cares about the sport, and NASCAR is still getting all the fans and all the TV ratings, then maybe you all will have learned something.

I'm happy for you that you have USAC for you to enjoy to your hearts content. As you feel the all American front engine cars running on dirt are the answer to increased popularity, I can only encourage you to enjoy USAC and continue to support it. Me, I'll take in a dirt race once in a while, but for the most part, I will enjoy the sleek high speed formula type Indycars that have existed nearly my entire life.

**BADGER** · 02-19-2008 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Racewriter

The heart attack patient has been merged with the cancer patient.

CART was able to leverage Indy to build a road racing series - but they had 70 years of healthy Indy 500 momentum to build on. Now, Indy itself needs something given back. It's in no condition to be used as a lever yet again.

Lets hope that patient has some good insurance

Through all the years of the split, you never were able to explain why CART was more popular than the all oval USAC that directly preceded or the IRL that followed it. Most people will embrace a good mix of different types of courses and hopefully, Indy racing can regain the prestiege to once again lure some of the top talent. Contrary to what you might think, I do hope that includes some USAC drivers if they are good enough.

**Racewriter** · 02-19-2008 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by BADGER

Lets hope that patient has some good insurance

Through all the years of the split, you never were able to explain why CART was more popular than the all oval USAC that directly preceded or the IRL that followed it.

Sure I was. I never, for a moment, disputed the marketing and sales superiority of CART. Nobody ever was able to leverage Indy like CART did. It also didn't hurt that CART benefited from the USAC legends for the first half of its existence. That said - by about 1990, CART was being outdrawn by NASCAR at every common venue (including BGN at Milwaukee).

CART's problem was they thought they'd "built" something of unique and inherent appeal; their trouble was that the house they built was on another man's land. Of course, CART went in for the same type of crowd overstatement then as now.

Hey - if you guys are right, the mergification will be a magical solution, and huge throngs will congregate at road courses and parking lots throughout the land.

**hdolan** · 02-19-2008 10:01 PM

"Most people will embrace a good mix of different types of courses and hopefully, Indy racing can regain the prestiege to once again lure some of the top talent."

That's questionable...when CART decided it could do it without Indy it bellied up in short order...it's offspring CC is facing the same fate...it was, and always will be Indianapolis...nothing more and nothing less...

**R22** · 02-19-2008 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Truth Detector

Well, that didn't take long.

no it didn't.......

those that have been posting here on the "direction discussion & fond
farewells" forum since the beginning are now going to be pounded
upon some more by the "new" IRL fans that think their sdonts.

yeee haaaaa.

the premise remains that the DIRECTION of the IRL even with
this life saving merger, just won't cut it. not until they decide
to find the connection to the american openwheel oval fan base.

call it what rw did choose your poison, heart attack or cancer,
this series is going away and gosh darn it we'll have to watch
taxis at INDY in may.

the direction of the IRL is DOOMED

**ChrisB** · 02-20-2008 06:46 AM

Why do you even watch IndyCar racing if you don't like the cars or the drivers? Is it just something for you to complain about?

Well, I literally CAN'T watch an Indy car race here in the PA/Jersey/Del area because the fans here have voted with their wallets, and Indy formula-style racing just doesn't cut it here. However.. we do have very successful NASCAR, NHRA, & WoO events here... so it's not as if there's a lack of race fans in this area.

The IMS is squandering a great opportunity... there are all these great short-track sprint, midget, & supermod OW series, and right now they are all streaming their talent into NASCAR, because Big Bill France Sr was smart enough to see that fans don't care all that much about technology.. they want to see good racing with drivers they like.

IF the IMS were able to create an Indy car which was more in line with what these short tracks were using, there would be a well-integrated American OW ladder.. but instead they're still stuck with trying to continue the "new track record" mentality with formula cars.... and a "new track record" isn't going to happen ever again!

So the result is we get these Indy "formula cars" which are neither fish nor fowl.. they don't get the performance of real F1 cars.. they don't attract the best formula car drivers.. and they don't attract the best American OW talent. It's time to try something else.

**Turn13** · 02-20-2008 06:52 AM

I don't think it's the formula (or even the type of track) as much as the money / popularity side that is causing the stream of talent into NASCAR.

I'd give the drivers and the teams credit for being able to master whatever variations of the craft, given the proper motivation and opportunity.

Besudes, if WoO or the other short track series really were more popular than Indy Car, why would they need to feed into anything?

**ChrisB** · 02-20-2008 06:58 AM

I don't think it's the formula as much as the money / popularity side that is causing the stream of talent into NASCAR.

And how did NASCAR get so much money and popularity in the first place? It's more than just marketing.

Let's start with them running almost EVERY weekend for many months on end (almost 40 races per season) Indy cars could never do that because the cars are so expensive and time-consuming to setup. Why not move the technology down a few notches so that they COULD run 30+ races per year?