AGR looking for government $$$ to make Toronto race happen?

[jonovision_man]

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Oth...16541-sun.html

Andretti might buy T.O. race -- if government chips in

Michael Andretti's potential purchase of the Grand Prix of Toronto is in jeopardy unless municipal, provincial and federal governments can come up with a $2-million aid package to make event viable again, numerous sources have told Sun Media.

...

"When AGR did their due diligence they discovered that the race was running a deficit of about $2 million a year," a source close to the group said. "AGR has told Toronto officials that they would want that deficit covered before agreeing to take over the event."

Needs a sponsor... I seem to remember Steelback pitching in something in that neighbourhood. Hopefully they are looking more in that direction than the city's, because this city council is pinko-left-wing to the extreme. Can't see them propping up a race.

jono

[Jim Wilke]

What, no street race in Canada? Oh no.....

[F1_or_Champcars]

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Oth...16541-sun.html



Needs a sponsor... I seem to remember Steelback pitching in something in that neighbourhood. Hopefully they are looking more in that direction than the city's, because this city council is pinko-left-wing to the extreme. Can't see them propping up a race.

jono

We should organize a letter writing campaign to the TO city council to warn them against the promoters who want to fleece the city with bogus talk of economic impact etc.

[F1_or_Champcars]

What, no street race in Canada? Oh no.....

Agree with you 100% Jim. There are many more strong racing markets the size of California with strong economies that the IRL should be paying attention to before going to race in foreign streets.

[paul-collins]

Steelback was about 500k, not 2m.

It might be worth noting that Bob Singleton, former head of MSE when they ran the race, is stating that the expensive bits were traffic routing and policing - the sort of things that would be easier to do if the race moved to his current gig, which is Parc Downsview Park. (old airport in the uptown portion of Toronto) Not that there's any hidden agenda or anything...

[athletics68]

What, no street race in Canada? Oh no.....

For once I agree with Jim. I'd rather see the OW cars back in Portland, Laguna Seca, or Road America first.

[Indycarjunkie]

We should organize a letter writing campaign to the TO city council to warn them against the promoters who want to fleece the city with bogus talk of economic impact etc.

Indeed we should. This might keep Tronnah off the schedule. Great idea!

[SportscarBruce]

We should organize a letter writing campaign to the TO city council to warn them against the promoters who want to fleece the city with bogus talk of economic impact etc.

Don't give them no ideas. These no street race protesters sticking their noses into the affairs of other communities always hail from some place that happens to have a racetrack down the road. Selfish and narrowminded.

BTW, you know that ISC track Indycar raced at last Sunday was taxpayer funded and also benefited from land obtained through eminent domain or the threat of eminent domain proceedings.

[tbyars]

Don't give them no ideas. These no street race protesters sticking their noses into the affairs of other communities always hail from some place that happens to have a racetrack down the road. Selfish and narrowminded.

There goes Bruce again with another of his lightly veiled personal attacks, whining because he didn't get to see a poorly planned CCWS race in San Antonio.

I thought you have been warned about that kind of mudslinging in the past....

I will say once again...PROVE your allegations or quit making them.

Mods....PLEASE???

(BTW, San Antonio is far closer "down the road" for me than TMS.....)

[tbyars]

We should organize a letter writing campaign to the TO city council to warn them against the promoters who want to fleece the city with bogus talk of economic impact etc.

Actually, there is nothing like that going on here.

There was no Toronto race this year because of the consolidation.

There won't be one next year unless a potentially successful promoter can be found to bring the race back online.

AGP is interested, but, as a business, no one can force them to promote that race at a loss. They are under NO OBLIGATION to purchase that race, a race with which they have never been involved in the past.

They have made it clear what they need to be able to make the deal work. The city has every right to say no. In turn, so does AGP.

There is no "fleecing the city with bogus talk of economic impact" here.

It's real simple. If the city thinks it's worth it to get the race back, they should consider it. If not, they just say no - in the light of day - and no one is worse off than they are right now.

[Jakester]

BTW, you know that ISC track Indycar raced at last Sunday was taxpayer funded and also benefited from land obtained through eminent domain or the threat of eminent domain proceedings.

I will say once again...PROVE your allegations or quit making them.

tbyars, I assume that at least part of your statement was pointed a scb's track claim.

His claim is true and it doesn't take much googling to support it. TMS got some significant tax breaks too, as well as a number of other tracks (though not a current IRL track, take a look at recent events in Charlotte).

I really don't see any significant difference in AGP asking for some government support for Toronto and all of the stick and ball sports owners and their stadiums...well except rather than a mere $2MM/year, the stick/ball guys ask for hundreds of millions of $$. And, the $$ difference is the only real difference between the local gov't supporting a race and a music festival or wildflower festival.

And, if reasonable studies (and there's the hard part) show that there is a benefit to the community...even if it's not all financial and tangible...it's reasonable for the local gov't to subsidize the activity.

A way down the line example: my city provides parks and swimming pools for the citizens (and visitors). Pools charge entry fees, parks do not. The income from the parks/pools do not approach the cost...so the city spends money on the parks/pools. Neighboring city subsidizes a wildflower festival each year, arts/crafts/music/etc., which loses money every year. But it's a well though of event that gets the city lots of good PR, and folks like it, so it gets subsidized.

[F1_or_Champcars]

Actually, there is nothing like that going on here.

It's real simple. If the city thinks it's worth it to get the race back, they should consider it. If not, they just say no.

I agree, and that was always the case when CC worked with cities to hold race events. But it was always presented here as if the CC affiliated promoters were scam artists pulling the wool over the eyes of local government.

Of course when it is an IRL affiliated promoter a different standard applies.

[Z28]

I really don't see any significant difference in AGP asking for some government support for Toronto and all of the stick and ball sports owners and their stadiums...well except rather than a mere $2MM/year, the stick/ball guys ask for hundreds of millions of $$. And, the $$ difference is the only real difference between the local gov't supporting a race and a music festival or wildflower festival.

And, if reasonable studies (and there's the hard part) show that there is a benefit to the community...even if it's not all financial and tangible...it's reasonable for the local gov't to subsidize the activity.

I'll try to illustrate a difference in concessions, subsidies or whatever for a permanent facilty versus a street race. There is a PR tourism benefit for either side, both get promoted and advertised, draw people from outside etc.

The street race has basically a one week life span, set it up, run it and take it down. Everything has to be done in that short span and it's gone until next year.

The permanent track after creating construction jobs for the area, hosts multiple events during the year extending beyond auto races. It pays taxes, it employs people year round, in the event of a natural disaster the grounds and facilities could be used for emergency services.

It's there all the time and requires some maintence while the once a year street festival has to get their facility out of storage, set it up quickly so as not to disrupt the normal activities of the city, run and get broken down and stored again just as quickly for the same reason. In the event of a tornado or flood what will the street festival contribute to the community?

As I've said, AGP's decision on this race, considering the long history of the Toronto event, the AGP experience and Honda connection is going to demostrate the future of street race on the ICS schedule. It was one thing for the CCWS owners to lose money promoting a race to keep their series going BUT Michael isn't going to lose money for the sake of the ICS. For any other former CCWS street venue the question at hand is, who is the promoter ready to step up for it?

It appears by the article that AGP needs, if the $2million figure is accurate, a considerable sum to make the race happen. While the local GP guy is of course optimistic that the race can be a moneymaker he isn't the one buying it, he just wants to keep his job.

Things not considered in the article are the purchase price which would seem relevant, how many years could AGP spread out that intitial cost towards profitablity and do they already have a title sponsor in place. As part of their investigating process AGP may well know how much they have lined up from a title sponsor, help from Honda etc and still find themselves that $2million short of being in the black.

The agreement with the CCWS owners could of course be extended, they might as well wait since there are no other offers but the Toronto council might not move as quickly as needed to pitch in taxpayer money and the time to set the 2009 schedule isn't that far ahead.

[Fueler]

I agree, and that was always the case when CC worked with cities to hold race events. But it was always presented here as if the CC affiliated promoters were scam artists pulling the wool over the eyes of local government.

Of course when it is an IRL affiliated promoter a different standard applies.

Not exactly. At least not in the case of the Vegas event. The Vegas event was pitched as a race that would not require support, but would turn a profit for the city, after the first three years. Seems it never got the chance to see if it was a scam or not.

[Hardscrabble]

So Toronto was running at a $2,000,000.00 (US or Canadian? ) deficit...

And here I thought all these street races were big money-makers...

I have to admit, it always seemed like Toronto was one of the better run venues...

Makes you wonder...

[jonovision_man]

So Toronto was running at a $2,000,000.00 (US or Canadian? ) deficit...

And here I thought all these street races were big money-makers...

I have to admit, it always seemed like Toronto was one of the better run venues...

Makes you wonder...

It is a well run venue, but there is no question the race was dropping in attendance year over year towards the end. It lost a lot when Molson took off, they were great promoters of the race and a huge advertising and media presence up here.

Still, it was well attended and well sponsored. I'll be surprised (and disappointed) if it doesn't come back. Should be a workable venue.

jono

[Jakester]

I'll try to illustrate a difference in concessions, subsidies or whatever for a permanent facilty versus a street race. There is a PR tourism benefit for either side, both get promoted and advertised, draw people from outside etc.

The street race has basically a one week life span, set it up, run it and take it down. Everything has to be done in that short span and it's gone until next year.

I think it's disingenious to limit the comparison to a permanent race facility.

First, in this case, there's no option of a permanent race facility to compare it to. For this argument, we'll ignore Mosport some distance outside the city. There's no hint of any entity expressing any desire to build an oval (or permanent road course) in the Toronto area. So there's no option of constructing a permanent facility.

So let's compare a street race to other similar events...those that are of a temporary nature (music festivals, 'taste of' Toronto, the wildflower festival I spoke of, etc.). These do not contribute permanent facilities that 'could be used for emergency services. They all require setup/teardown time and are there for a short period of time and gone until next year.

The comparison then is to determine if the tangible and intangible benefits of the event are worthwhile in comparison to the cost of the subsidy.

Now, if we want to compare Toronto street race to Mosport...it's gonna be really hard to justify much tangible or intangible benefits to the city of Toronto to subsidize a race that far outside the city. But that's likely a whole 'nother argument.



Just from a pragmatic viewpoint, I think it quite likely only permanent facilities owned by the local government would be able to be pressed into large service as emergency facilities, not privately owned (even if subsidized)...at least not without the guarantee of compensation to the private owner from the local governments (or unless it's a gigantic disaster on Katrina scale). But I tknow that's a whole 'nother argument.

[paul-collins]

As to the emergency use of permanent facilities, I headed for Mosport as soon as we had the great blackout.

Toronto would get some marketing out of Mosport only from a TV perspective. The value to sponsors in general is going to be relative to the TV package the league is able to promise, particularly as ESPN isn't directly offered up here.

That said, I'm sure it would be significantly cheaper to run the race at Mosport; the only question is, would the reduced returns on an event an hour from downtown still be an improvement over the reduced investment?

... stay tuned.

[tbyars]

tbyars, I assume that at least part of your statement was pointed a scb's track claim.

Nope. Way off base. See your PMs.

[Dan77]

At least its only 2 million. I seem to remember the city of Montreal having to pay 20 million pa to keep the GP because of the loss of ciggie monies....

[jonovision_man]

I'm sure it would be significantly cheaper to run the race at Mosport; the only question is, would the reduced returns on an event an hour from downtown still be an improvement over the reduced investment?

No. Attendance would plummet, it's too far, and it wouldn't be able to get the same corporate support.

The downtown location is so awesome... you can pop away from the office over to the track on Friday, it's connected to both local and inter-urban transit, a short walk to bars and restaurants. They have the Direct Energy Centre right there for the expo, beer gardens, and concerts...

Mosport is well over an hour from downtown (and even further from Mississauga, the airport, Hamilton, etc) and is close to... nothing. It's a great little track, I love it, but it's not a replacement for the Indy circuit.

jono

[Jim Wilke]

No. Attendance would plummet, it's too far, and it wouldn't be able to get the same corporate support.

The corporate support is so terrific that Molson sold it to KK/GF who now want to sell it to AGP who doesn't want to buy it because the race is losing $2 million a year.

Street/temp races lose money without a big sponsor. St. Pete has one, Long Beach has one and they are going forward. Cleveland, Houston, Edmonton and Toronto do not have sponsors and they probably won't make it. This is not exactly news.

[F1_or_Champcars]

Edmonton..... do(es) not have sponsors and they probably won't make it. This is not exactly news.

It's the Rexall Edmonton Indy.

Rexall is owned by the Katz group.

[The Stickman]

I agree, and that was always the case when CC worked with cities to hold race events. But it was always presented here as if the CC affiliated promoters were scam artists pulling the wool over the eyes of local government.

Of course when it is an IRL affiliated promoter a different standard applies.

I think the reason people have done what you say is things that happened like San Jose where they asked for a large amount of money that would be spread over a period of years only to leave the next year. Also the way they initially stated that NO public money would ever be asked for only to turn around and do a back door deal with the mayor which then was pushed thru the city council at the last minute giving the council very little time to look into the matter before making a decision. Personally I would rather have Mosport than any street race.

[Gomer Simpson]

I agree, and that was always the case when CC worked with cities to hold race events. But it was always presented here as if the CC affiliated promoters were scam artists pulling the wool over the eyes of local government.

Of course when it is an IRL affiliated promoter a different standard applies.

CC would sign contracts with the cities and then after the fact go back and demand money. AGR has no such contract.

I guess they should've just turned down the race instead of giving the city options.

[SportscarBruce]

Mr. Byars, when composing my last post your self-admitted lobbying campaign against the SAGP didn't even enter my mind at the time, so put your ego to rest. It was the letterwriters professing so much "heartfelt concern for taxpayers" seperated by a state or more away from the writer's location. I've seen these letters in person. Sabotaging an event in order to further a desire to see a competitor* lose out just plain sucks from this racing fan's point of view.

*EDIT: The external campaign of opposition was underway when the race proposal was by AGR & IndyCar.

[Indyknut]

The corporate support is so terrific that Molson sold it to KK/GF who now want to sell it to AGP who doesn't want to buy it because the race is losing $2 million a year.

Street/temp races lose money without a big sponsor. St. Pete has one, Long Beach has one and they are going forward. Cleveland, Houston, Edmonton and Toronto do not have sponsors and they probably won't make it. This is not exactly news.

Apples and oranges really.

You're talking about the difference between the pre-merger, dilluted, mickey mouse club racing series formerly known as CCWS vs the new Indy racing league.

I'm sure jono can expound further but I don't recall there being an issue with Toronto until around 2000 - 2002 when the split had lingered and CART began laboring.

I'm not really a proponent of street racing but this one has a long history and there's been a lot of investment over the years into it. Like any street venue, it's always open for attack depending on the current political enviroment but this one seems worth saving if possible.

[jonovision_man]

The corporate support is so terrific that Molson sold it to KK/GF who now want to sell it to AGP who doesn't want to buy it because the race is losing $2 million a year.

There has always been great corporate support for this race, nobody can walk around the infield and the expo and say different.

Street/temp races lose money without a big sponsor. St. Pete has one, Long Beach has one and they are going forward. Cleveland, Houston, Edmonton and Toronto do not have sponsors and they probably won't make it. This is not exactly news.

Umm... Edmonton does have a sponsor.

Toronto needs a big sponsor and being in the corporate capital of Canada they should be able to find one.

You're talking about the difference between the pre-merger, dilluted, mickey mouse club racing series formerly known as CCWS vs the new Indy racing league.

I'm sure jono can expound further but I don't recall there being an issue with Toronto until around 2000 - 2002 when the split had lingered and CART began laboring.

There is no one year I can point to and say "that was the big drop"... it was more of a chipping away, every year it felt a little smaller and the crowds were a little smaller. Certainly Molson's departure was something that contributed to the decline.

And despite that it's managed to hold a really good sized crowd, if they could hold that and draw a big sponsor there's a lot of reason for optimism.

jono

[nascarnation]

Note to Toronto:

build yourself a nice little 3/4 mi oval like Iowa or Richmond.
you'll get some nice Nascar action and a fun IRL race to boot.

[Jakester]

you'll get some nice Nascar action and a fun IRL race to boot.

IRL ? Reasonably possible

NASCAR? Maybe, if they were really really lucky, a truck race. If really, really really lucky and willing to 'buy' and event, perhaps a Nationwide race. Sprint Cup....slim and none (and slim left town).