AGR looking for government $$$ to make Toronto race happen?

[ZOOOM]

I can't understand you guys...

AGR wants a government to pony up some dough to back a race in their country........
Hell, Bernie has been doing just that for the last 20 years!

It wouls SEEM that it would be less costly to stage a race at a permanent course, where almost all of the facility needed, actually exists and doesn't need to be installed.....ie. Road America, Phoenix, Road Atlanta, etc., etc., etc.

Personal opinion here, (and you all know what that's worth) you won't be seeing many city street courses in the IRL's future. There is a businessman at the controls now......
ZOOOM

[Jakester]

You've just listed a bunch of expenses that street courses have too.

Yep, sure did, every one of 'em I mentioned.... Remember, this was in response to "What do you suppose it costs to cut the grass and open the gates at Infineon or PIR?" when the truth is it there's quite a bit more than that to host an event at Infineon, PIR (forgot to ask Jim, is that Portland or Phoenix) or any permanent facility.

Whoa, Jakester, permanent facilities have permanent rest rooms (although they rent additional for GA in some cases), hospitality suites are permanent and leased by the year for full track schedules. The rest of the stuff are things that are routine for permanent facilities to do on an annual basis, not a weekend basis and temporary facilities hafta do them too.

Sure, they have permanent restrooms, but they aren't enough to take care of all the people in the infield, the camping areas, etc. I know TMS rents 300 or more portapotties for every major event. Ditto for Infineon. Infineon does not have adequate permanent hospitality suites, heck even the palace of speed TMS erects temporary hospitality stuff for the big weekends. No, the rest of the stuff is not routine, I tried very hard to list only event above and beyond expenses. Didn't mention debt service, property taxes, full time staff, etc.

And yes, temporary facilities do have to do all of those things too, perhaps not property tax.

Bottom line, having an IRL (or other big) event at a permanent facility requires a bit more (a big bit) than just "cutting the grass and opening the gates. That's the point.

Oh, I forgot to mention the excess weekend medical services, like staffing any infield and outfield care centers, track and spectator ambulances, life flight (you ever checked on what a life flight chopper costs per hour, even if it never leaves the ground?!).

[jonovision_man]

Personal opinion here, (and you all know what that's worth) you won't be seeing many city street courses in the IRL's future. There is a businessman at the controls now......

That businessman already added St. Pete and Belle Island... Long Beach... Oz... Edmonton... and has AGR checking out Toronto.

And how about a street race in Brazil?
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=106677

If street circuits aren't sustainable, someone forgot to tell TG.

And that businessman TG has been dropping ovals! What does THAT tell 'ya?

jono

[jonovision_man]

a bunch of good points

The other thing folks forget is that people actually come out to street circuits, and they pay a lot to be there.

ie. Edmonton pricing:

Gold Package - $225.00 per ticket *
3-day seating. These are the very best seats at the track - guaranteed.
Silver Package - $150.00 per ticket *
3-day seating close to the best action on the track.
Bronze Package - $125.00 per ticket *
3-day seating located at prime racing areas on the track.

I paid less for my Indy 500 tickets! Most permanent facility pricing is cheap, especially the ovals.

jono

[indycool]

Jakester, a permanent facility also has 365 days a year to make money, to promote more than one event, to have testing days, etc. And if TMS has to build some temporary suites to go with the permanent ones they have, it's because someone is paying a pretty penny for 'em. And your excess costs are the same for both.

jono, the difference in St. Pete and Detroit is that sponsorship was secured or at least "hand-shook" BEFORE the deals were signed. That's where AGP and Penske were both smart. AGP is looking at Toronto and saying, "well, this thing is $2 million light that we don't know where it's going to come from." Oz is heavily supported by government and is solid. Long Beach was successful before and gives KK and GF a chance to make some money. That leaves Edmonton, which involved a contract that had to be tossed into blendification. This is NOT a scattergun "let's race on the streets" craze. It's being done pretty carefully.

Prediction: Someone will come up with $2 million a year long-term or Toronto is done. Rexall and the IRL will look each other over for a year and decide on Edmonton. Brazil? Why? That country's politicians canned a CART race and stiffed CART on the sanction fee awhile back. TG is looking to build the ICS as primarily a North American series. IMO, rapid expansion to anywhere but Canada and maybe Mexico (other than Motegi and Oz) ain't gonna happen unless it formulates an international series with more events than those.

[jonovision_man]

jono, the difference in St. Pete and Detroit is that sponsorship was secured or at least "hand-shook" BEFORE the deals were signed. That's where AGP and Penske were both smart. AGP is looking at Toronto and saying, "well, this thing is $2 million light that we don't know where it's going to come from." Oz is heavily supported by government and is solid. Long Beach was successful before and gives KK and GF a chance to make some money. That leaves Edmonton, which involved a contract that had to be tossed into blendification. This is NOT a scattergun "let's race on the streets" craze. It's being done pretty carefully.

I didn't say it wasn't done carefully. I'm just saying it's being done, and will continue to be done.

Street races get government support, they get corporations jumping on board to support a big event in the community, and they draw out big crowds. There are a lot of reasons why they are attractive to the IRL, as they were to CART and CCWS before.

Predicting their demise is silly, and flies in the face of the trend.

Prediction: Someone will come up with $2 million a year long-term or Toronto is done.

Your prediction is already out of date.

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/AutoRacing/article/419875

City says it would help subsidize new race

Toronto sends letter detailing offer to group with eye on 2009 event

...

Toronto Councillor Joe Pantalone, who chairs the board of governors of Exhibition Place, said that the Andretti group has been told what the city is willing to offer.

"A letter from Exhibition Place has gone out to them indicating what we can do reasonably,'' Pantalone told Star city hall reporter John Spears.

He wouldn't provide any figures on the value of cash and services the city has offered. However, an informed source said the city had been asked to contribute $500,000.

``The Andretti Green group is basically trying to figure out what do they need in order to reduce their costs and make a profit,'' the source said.

``They are prepared to put up some money themselves at the beginning to cover the loss, but they also expect the broader Toronto/Ontario community to chip in to reduce the loss to make the thing viable – which is a reasonable proposition.''

Sounds like $500K already in from the city, and AGR willing to take a hit to get the ball rolling, leaving the gap to make this happen at a very palatable million or so.

jono

[Jakester]

Jakester, a permanent facility also has 365 days a year to make money, to promote more than one event, to have testing days, etc. And if TMS has to build some temporary suites to go with the permanent ones they have, it's because someone is paying a pretty penny for 'em. And your excess costs are the same for both.

Indycool, why are you missing the point...Again, I am not disputing any of the above. My reply is limited to the ludicrous proposition that all a permanent facility has to do for a major event is 'mow the grass and open the gates'. Permanent facilities has significant costs that are specific to the event.

I agree a permanent circuit has benefits that don't accrue to a temporary circuit and that it's hard to make a temporary event last (history shows a checkered past for street events..for more reasons than just pure financial).

Sonoma/Toronto/whoever doesn't build temporary hospitality unless they have a buyer either.

[jonovision_man]

Sonoma/Toronto/whoever doesn't build temporary hospitality unless they have a buyer either.

Toronto also has the Direct Energy Center, which is a permanent conference center on-site. Washrooms and amenities, including the massive space used for the trade show and the support series paddock.

jono

[indycool]

jono, it'll be done, but after all the financial disasters of street races in the CART/CC regimes, it'll be done reasonably and carefully and a different way. It also isn't going to be done as often because it's simply very hard to do with the expenses involved. THAT is the current reality check.

One thing that a promoter must figure out to grow it is how to build and sell more than 25,000 seats, which 20-25,000 has been the norm for street races, regardless of announced attendance figures. Edmonton may have a few more than that, and the most Long Beach had at its height was 44,000. Toronto had a "cap" by the city for several years, and I don't know if that still exists. As for attendance, you really don't believe that those races were drawing 150,000 for three days with 20,000 seats, do you?

jono, if you say they have government support, Denver didn't and San Jose's was under the table. And they exist no more. If you say they have great corporate support, Cleveland has always been in trouble because of lack of sponsorship, you should have read the signs on the front of the hospitality suites the last year of Denver saying "Champ Car" and "Gulfstream" and "Rocketsports," etc. And why'd the shopping mall dump it in Edmonton? Why'd Molson dump it in Toronto?

With the number of street-race eggs laid in the recent past, people are going to be very careful about wanting to have a street race and very careful to put their money behind it. And it will be based on financial and operational realities, not rah-rah, gung-ho, CW-forever, 150,000-everywhere, DP-01 hype.

Jakester, I see your point now and what you reacted to.

[Jim Wilke]

That businessman already added St. Pete and Belle Island... Long Beach... Oz... Edmonton... and has AGR checking out Toronto.

And how about a street race in Brazil?
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=106677

If street circuits aren't sustainable, someone forgot to tell TG.

And that businessman TG has been dropping ovals! What does THAT tell 'ya?

jono

What it tells me is that the ICS will race where it makes economic sense for the promoter to host a race. Both St. Pete and Detroit had solid promoters with sponsors before they came on board. So do Long Beach and Surfers and they'll be added next year. The rest of your list? It appears that Edmonton will not be back again and that Toronto needs to be viable before a promoter will take it on. Brazil is a pipe dream, the promoter has not talked to the series and it will end up in the same trash can as Cancun and Malta.

So, after the big mergerquisition, the IRL/ICS will end up with 4 street races and 3 road courses and at least 11 ovals. I believe I can live with that.

[indycool]

TSO just had a release from AGP saying that the deadline has been extended to May 15 to say yay or nay on the Toronto deal and added that no further comment would be given.

[Tara]

And how about a street race in Brazil?

TSO said the other day that while it is true the IRL has not said no to a race in Brazil, one needs more information to put things in proper perspective.

They have not even talked to anyone about the possibility of holding a race there. So Jono at this point the Brazil race is all hype from someone in Brazil.

[indycool]

Remember when Coos Bay, Oregon proudly announced it wanted a street race?

[jonovision_man]

What it tells me is that the ICS will race where it makes economic sense for the promoter to host a race.

... which in recent years has meant add street circuits, drop ovals.

And if you honestly believe that TG did that because Belle Island fit the vision better than MIS, then I have a bridge to sell you. He's doing it because they make the best financial sense for the series.

I'll just leave you with one last comment: if you believe Belle Island and St. Pete's are financial successes and belong on the calendar, does it not make sense that a similar concept could be applied in other cities, to the same success? What's so unique about those two cities? In fact I'd argue that Belle Island is successful in spite of the fact that it's in Detroit, not because of it...

jono

[F1_or_Champcars]

It appears that Edmonton will not be back again

What information do you have to support this?

the IRL/ICS will end up with 4 street races and 3 road courses and at least 11 ovals. I believe I can live with that.

IMO 2009 will be the final realization of CART II - 1/3 oval, 1/3 street, 1/3 road.

[indycool]

I disagree. I don't think six viable street races can be put together by 2009. I don't think that six permanent road courses will want to take the financial risk by 2009. And if it ain't viable, it ain't gonna happen.

[bkeske]

Predicting their demise is silly, and flies in the face of the trend.

That 'trend' has bankrupt two series now.

Are you wishing for a third?

[F1_or_Champcars]

I disagree. I don't think six viable street races can be put together by 2009. I don't think that six permanent road courses will want to take the financial risk by 2009. And if it ain't viable, it ain't gonna happen.

Streets would be no problem: Long Beach, Toronto, St. Pete, Detroit, Edmonton, Surfers Paradise. Las Vegas and Cleveland also make racing sense even if the business case is less clear.

Roads would admittedly be tougher: Mid Ohio, Watkins Glen and Sonoma should return. I think the brain trust will take a loss on races at one or more of Road America, Portland, Laguna Seca.

The reality is that with the ratings in the toilet it makes it much tougher to justify any race outside Indy if it has to make a profit as a stand alone event.

[indycool]

Baloney.

Las Vegas lost $15 million, so much that the Arizona promoters canceled Phoenix. Cleveland has been a loser through six or seven promoters. At one point, it was GIVEN by IMG back to CART with no remuneration because it lost money. Toronto's situation is being discussed in another thread, but basically there seems to be a $2 million annual loss that needs to be overcome before the SINGLE promoter interested (AGP) will touch it.

The "brain trust" is NOT going to take a loss on Portland as CART and subsequently CC did. The "brain trust" is NOT going to take a loss on Laguna Seca, nor is Laguna Seca going to take a loss on IT. The IRL "brain trust" went to Infineon. Laguna got screwed around by CART and CC into oblivion and is unlikely to take the risk anytime soon. Road America was screwed on dates by CART, from July to October and changes each year, until it finally squeezed itself down to a lawsuit and a track rental. Road America is NOT going to take the risk overnight.

No one has said anything about "standalone." There's the Firestone Indy Lights Series. There are Atlantics which need dates. The IRL has run with Grand Am and ALMS in the past at various times.

But taking on losers ain't gonna happen, IMO.

[Shanks]

Gotta agree with indycool, but perhaps not for the same reasons.

The "brain trust" are TG and kind back at IMS. They are not going to do much that doesn't directly benefit, or is at least neutral, to the interests of IMS and the 500. Always has been that way.

They are not going to "invest" in, or subsidize any other event. CART and CC did because they were building/trying to save a series.

TG may own the IRL but he sees the job of building successful events to be the work of others. Hence Andretti Green promoting St Pete and maybe TO. Hence, Penske's leadership at Detroit. KK at LB. Maybe Lanigan at Cleveland and Houston. If those guys can make it work, it will go.

But don't expect help from IRL headquarters. Case in point, making Edmonton move to a Thursday-Saturday event so it didn't conflict on TV with the BY400.

[Jim Wilke]

It's not the TV conflict, it's manpower. The same folks who work in admin for IRL races and work for Vision Racing also run IMS. Simply not enough people to do both on the same day.

[Shanks]

It's not the TV conflict, it's manpower. The same folks who work in admin for IRL races and work for Vision Racing also run IMS. Simply not enough people to do both on the same day.

So the promoters of Edmonton have take a big hit at the gate so IMS doesn't have to find some extra hands with several months notice to do it? Like a said, don't expect much help.

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think its a bad thing to expect the promoters to build their events.

[Jakester]

I may be wrong, but didn't the IRL run a race the same day as the BY400 several years back?

[indycool]

Other ICS races have been held on Saturday, some more successful than others. No news there.

[F1_or_Champcars]

Baloney.

Las Vegas lost $15 million, so much that the Arizona promoters canceled Phoenix. Cleveland has been a loser through six or seven promoters. At one point, it was GIVEN by IMG back to CART with no remuneration because it lost money. Toronto's situation is being discussed in another thread, but basically there seems to be a $2 million annual loss that needs to be overcome before the SINGLE promoter interested (AGP) will touch it.

The "brain trust" is NOT going to take a loss on Portland as CART and subsequently CC did. The "brain trust" is NOT going to take a loss on Laguna Seca, nor is Laguna Seca going to take a loss on IT. The IRL "brain trust" went to Infineon. Laguna got screwed around by CART and CC into oblivion and is unlikely to take the risk anytime soon. Road America was screwed on dates by CART, from July to October and changes each year, until it finally squeezed itself down to a lawsuit and a track rental. Road America is NOT going to take the risk overnight.

No one has said anything about "standalone." There's the Firestone Indy Lights Series. There are Atlantics which need dates. The IRL has run with Grand Am and ALMS in the past at various times.

But taking on losers ain't gonna happen, IMO.

What part of my post is baloney? I said that LV and Cleveland may not make business sense, and that it would be tougher to justify some of the other potential road course venues in NA. But they are good venues which provide good racing action and are in large markets, which in theory should attract TV viewers.

By standalone I meant that the event will turn a profit and be viable with no subsidies and in the context of test pattern ratings.

Let me ask you all a question- would you consider it a loss if ICS became one or two races leading up to Indy and nothing more?

[indycool]

Pook squeezed out Mid-Ohio to keep Cleveland because he felt they were in the same market. Years down the road, Mid-Ohio is an ICS race, located between Cleveland and Columbus at Mansfield. By Pook's thinking, they're in the same market. By Honda's thinking, Mid-Ohio is near their plant in Marysville.

Road America? Market? In the wilds of Wisconsin? Historical, yes. But look what CART and CC did to the place. Give it a few years for people to get over it.

Laguna got ruined by the date change Pook made from October to June. It eventually went back to September, but Laguna had lost its caboose by that time. By that time, ICS was starting to build at Infineon, in the same market, and has no reason not to continue.

Las Vegas, if you insist on running there like Gentilozzi did, has a permanent facility called LVMS. Yes, the community has more than 1 million permanent residents. But the IRL didn't draw at LVMS. CC didn't draw at LVMS. CC and its promoters blew $15 million trying a street race 10 miles from a permanent course. IMO, the ICS is not ready for Vegas yet and when it is, it'll be at LVMS. What part of consistent and ongoing classic and total failures don't you understand?

There seem to be a lot of threads going from ex-CC supporters saying, "Gee, we oughta have P2P or standing starts or Cleveland or Road America." They are trying to recreate the bankrupt mess that CART and CC became. CART and CC are bankrupt. The SPORT is unified as the Indy Car Series. Yes, it will be a series built around the Indianapolis 500 as a centerpiece. That's why they're called Indy cars, which CART and PPG called them for more than a decade. And no, ex-CC supporters can whine about ICS not picking up this little idea or that little idea that suited their fancy from the bankrupt CART and the bankrupt CC. Ain't gonna happen that way.

[F1_or_Champcars]

Pook squeezed out Mid-Ohio to keep Cleveland because he felt they were in the same market. Years down the road, Mid-Ohio is an ICS race, located between Cleveland and Columbus at Mansfield. By Pook's thinking, they're in the same market. By Honda's thinking, Mid-Ohio is near their plant in Marysville.

Road America? Market? In the wilds of Wisconsin? Historical, yes. But look what CART and CC did to the place. Give it a few years for people to get over it.

Laguna got ruined by the date change Pook made from October to June. It eventually went back to September, but Laguna had lost its caboose by that time. By that time, ICS was starting to build at Infineon, in the same market, and has no reason not to continue.

Las Vegas, if you insist on running there like Gentilozzi did, has a permanent facility called LVMS. Yes, the community has more than 1 million permanent residents. But the IRL didn't draw at LVMS. CC didn't draw at LVMS. CC and its promoters blew $15 million trying a street race 10 miles from a permanent course. IMO, the ICS is not ready for Vegas yet and when it is, it'll be at LVMS. What part of consistent and ongoing classic and total failures don't you understand?

There seem to be a lot of threads going from ex-CC supporters saying, "Gee, we oughta have P2P or standing starts or Cleveland or Road America." They are trying to recreate the bankrupt mess that CART and CC became. CART and CC are bankrupt. The SPORT is unified as the Indy Car Series. Yes, it will be a series built around the Indianapolis 500 as a centerpiece. That's why they're called Indy cars, which CART and PPG called them for more than a decade. And no, ex-CC supporters can whine about ICS not picking up this little idea or that little idea that suited their fancy from the bankrupt CART and the bankrupt CC. Ain't gonna happen that way.

Slow down, take a deep breath and practice a bit of comprehension.

This thread has nothing to do with P2P or standing starts.

I did not include Cleveland in my list of (IMO) viable street races. Those ones that are viable, again IMO, are Long Beach, Toronto, Edmonton, Belle Isle, Surfer's and St. Petes. Cleveland would be nice because I always enjoy the racing there. Same with Las Vegas, that was a very racy course.


Road courses are more difficult to justify (either because of CART/CCWS scorched earth or split ennui, please don't turn this thread into a debate about that), but there are a few that should make the grade and a few that the league should IMO support as part of a rebuilding phase, even if this only means reduced sanctioning fees.

With no TV ratings to speak of and with the sport fallen off the public radar outside of Indy, building back some of the sport's former audience seems like the only alternative to it becoming a one month event. Maybe that would be OK with some of the posters here.

IC, do you think Michigan and Fontana are viable venues for ICS? Personally I enjoyed those two plus Indy and Milwaukee when it came to ovals.

Quick question for the more knowledgable here- can the ICS cars run on 20 degree banking as was recently installed at LVMS?

[bkeske]

If street races were such a 'cash cow', neither CART nor CCWS would have failed. Street races do not produce what they claim to produce for a series....except, it seems historically, bankruptcy.

For all the claims of big crowds, and big money, it wasn't enough then, and it won't be enough tomorrow, as the business model simply does not work over the long haul.

[Jakester]

There seem to be a lot of threads going from ex-CC supporters saying, "Gee, we oughta have P2P or standing starts or Cleveland or Road America." They are trying to recreate the bankrupt mess that CART and CC became. CART and CC are bankrupt. The SPORT is unified as the Indy Car Series. Yes, it will be a series built around the Indianapolis 500 as a centerpiece. That's why they're called Indy cars, which CART and PPG called them for more than a decade. And no, ex-CC supporters can whine about ICS not picking up this little idea or that little idea that suited their fancy from the bankrupt CART and the bankrupt CC. Ain't gonna happen that way.

I agree...Indycool, chill out a moment and try to separate wheat from chaff....

I don't see 'a lot of threads from ex CC supporters'...in fact the most recent long thread that got into P2P, standing starts, turbos, etc. was started by an well known anti-CC poster. Did you fail to notice also that P2P was overwhelmingly out of favor (even though a similar system existed in the IRL for some time).

Ideas from CART/CC (more from CART) that make sense will be adopted. In fact, the biggest CART idea already has...a series that offers short/long ovals, road/street courses in a reasonable balance, a divers series...Tony George himself proclaimed it in almost the exact same words that the CART series used at its height.

I also believe that Toronto and Road America should be in the schedule. Road America is a classic course that America's best open wheel series should be on. It will require rebuilding.

While I like Cleveland, I'm a little less enthused about it, both from a biz and track viewpoint. I'd rather see Road Atlanta than Cleveland or Edmonton...but I'm being a bit selfish there.

[Shanks]

Other ICS races have been held on Saturday, some more successful than others. No news there.

Yes there is. Oval event weekends and road race weekends are far different matters, especially on temporary courses.

The typical oval weekend consists mostly of the race itself. Qualifying is not that important and support races are slim or non-existent. Few fans are expected or come outside of race day.

Roadraces are a different story. While Friday's are usually thin, there is important qualifying and Saturday usually has support races and final qualifying. Crowds on Saturday are expected and counted on. Move that to a work day and everyone from the hot dog vendor to the ticket office suffers.

And frankly, I suspect you know that.