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Thread: NASCAR Pontiac GTO

  1. #1
    Waiting for the next race KenK's Avatar
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    NASCAR Pontiac GTO

    I've been looking for pics of obscure NASCAR race cars lately. It seems that
    there was a 1966 GTO built by Bobby Allison. Hey allegedly ran it 3 times, then
    sold it to H.B. Bailey, who then sold it to Roy Tyner, who updated it to
    a 1967 and raced it a while before it ended up as a Sportsman car. The web site ultimategto.com has pics of it in it's current configuration, basically
    short-track Sportsman form.

    I'm sure I have seen a picture of it in a book in it's 1967 form as a NASCAR
    Cup car, but I can't figure out what book this would have been. Looked at the
    local Borders without luck, I'm sure that's where I saw it originally.

    Anybody know what book I was looking at? Anybody have the picture?
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    Can't help with the GTO, but some other obscure cars come to mind:

    • The Chevy Baretta that was built as a test car. I remember DW testing it, but I don't think it ever raced.
    • There was a Dodge that was campaigned by one of the independent guys long after the factory pulled out. This might have been in the late 70's.
    • Penske's AMC Matador
    • A Lincoln body was put on a Cup chassis. I remember John Andretti testing it, but I don't think it was ever raced.

  3. #3
    The Dodge was probably Buddy Arrington's.

    The Lincoln was tested by John Andretti and the Kranefuss (SP/Carl Haas team. Mark VIII I think.

    One of the Ford teams also tested a Cougar body for the short tracks about that time. Probably Roush?
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    K/H tried a Lincoln mock-up because they thought there was an advantage to the rear spoiler following the spare-tire bulge in the trunk profile. NASCAR never approved it, but Andretti got to throw out some good one-liners: "The Lincoln is real nice. It's got leather seats, air conditioning, a great stereo...."

    Arrington campaigned various Dodge Mirada, Chrysler Cordoba, and Dodge Magnum bodies until the late 80s. At least one Dodge Avenger was seen in ARCA in the early 90s.

    Petty Enterprises tested a Dodge Mirada in the 1981 pre-season, the first year of the downsized 110" wheelbase cars. It had the aero of a shoebox, which is saying something compared to the GM F-bodies and Ford Thunderbirds of the time. Petty shut off on the Daytona backstretch at 186mph for a plug check and the car coasted to a dead stop before it made it to the pits.

    Around '86 NASCAR hatched a plan called "LR" (left-right) for a road racing series. They had Banjo Matthews build a 100" wheelbase Buick Somerset with V-6 power. The car's and series' entire career consisted of one test session around an improvised infield road course at Charlotte with Bobby Allison at the wheel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalz
    K/H tried a Lincoln mock-up because they thought there was an advantage to the rear spoiler following the spare-tire bulge in the trunk profile. NASCAR never approved it, but Andretti got to throw out some good one-liners: "The Lincoln is real nice. It's got leather seats, air conditioning, a great stereo...."

    Arrington campaigned various Dodge Mirada, Chrysler Cordoba, and Dodge Magnum bodies until the late 80s. At least one Dodge Avenger was seen in ARCA in the early 90s.

    Petty Enterprises tested a Dodge Mirada in the 1981 pre-season, the first year of the downsized 110" wheelbase cars. It had the aero of a shoebox, which is saying something compared to the GM F-bodies and Ford Thunderbirds of the time. Petty shut off on the Daytona backstretch at 186mph for a plug check and the car coasted to a dead stop before it made it to the pits.

    Around '86 NASCAR hatched a plan called "LR" (left-right) for a road racing series. They had Banjo Matthews build a 100" wheelbase Buick Somerset with V-6 power. The car's and series' entire career consisted of one test session around an improvised infield road course at Charlotte with Bobby Allison at the wheel.
    It wasn't improvised. There was a real road course there. IMSA used to run the Camel GT Series on it. Maybe what you mean is that they only used the road course and not any of the oval?

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    Planning dalz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48
    It wasn't improvised. There was a real road course there. IMSA used to run the Camel GT Series on it. Maybe what you mean is that they only used the road course and not any of the oval?
    That's right.

    Also, upon further research: After the LR idea was scrapped the Somerset was later converted to meet IMSA GTO specs and ran in the '88 Daytona 24hr. with Bobby and Clifford driving.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dalz
    K/H tried a Lincoln mock-up because they thought there was an advantage to the rear spoiler following the spare-tire bulge in the trunk profile. NASCAR never approved it, but Andretti got to throw out some good one-liners: "The Lincoln is real nice. It's got leather seats, air conditioning, a great stereo...."

    Arrington campaigned various Dodge Mirada, Chrysler Cordoba, and Dodge Magnum bodies until the late 80s. At least one Dodge Avenger was seen in ARCA in the early 90s.

    Petty Enterprises tested a Dodge Mirada in the 1981 pre-season, the first year of the downsized 110" wheelbase cars. It had the aero of a shoebox, which is saying something compared to the GM F-bodies and Ford Thunderbirds of the time. Petty shut off on the Daytona backstretch at 186mph for a plug check and the car coasted to a dead stop before it made it to the pits.

    Around '86 NASCAR hatched a plan called "LR" (left-right) for a road racing series. They had Banjo Matthews build a 100" wheelbase Buick Somerset with V-6 power. The car's and series' entire career consisted of one test session around an improvised infield road course at Charlotte with Bobby Allison at the wheel.
    I don't know about an ARCA Avenger (they did run those in IROC after the Daytona), but they definitely had a LeBaron. Jerry Churchill IIRC.

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    I don't think is was to NASCAR specs, but recall seeing a Lincoln Mark somthing raced during the Saturday TransAm race supporting the 1985 Detroit Grand Prix. It looked like a beast. The crowd hooted and whistled evertime it went by.

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    Wasn't that Bobby Allison Pontiac a Tempest? Everyone was focusing on front-end aerodynamics, and it turned out the Tempest was better due to the rear-end (rear window) design? This is all from my hazy memory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcsparky
    I don't think is was to NASCAR specs, but recall seeing a Lincoln Mark somthing raced during the Saturday TransAm race supporting the 1985 Detroit Grand Prix. It looked like a beast. The crowd hooted and whistled evertime it went by.
    I don't remember a Lincoln, but there was a Thunderbird that competed...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by tcsparky
    I don't think is was to NASCAR specs, but recall seeing a Lincoln Mark somthing raced during the Saturday TransAm race supporting the 1985 Detroit Grand Prix. It looked like a beast. The crowd hooted and whistled evertime it went by.
    You sure it wasn't a Mercury Merkur XR4Ti? Yellow and white, MAC Tools? Roush ran that one IIRC, along with the Stroh's Cougar in IMSA GTO later on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48
    I don't remember a Lincoln, but there was a Thunderbird that competed...
    I'm not sure what all races he was in, but Russ Theus did in fact have a Lincoln. IIRC, he was working for Ford at the time. FoMoCo's racing division were none too happy about it.

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    Can't help with the book, but Bobby Allison did not run any Pontiac GTO in the top series, then known as GN. H.B. Bailey usually ran Pontiacs, and Roy Tyner did run a Pontiac in '67 (and, of all things, a Grand Prix in '69 ).

    Do you have a direct link to the photo?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenK
    I've been looking for pics of obscure NASCAR race cars lately. It seems that
    there was a 1966 GTO built by Bobby Allison. Hey allegedly ran it 3 times, then
    sold it to H.B. Bailey, who then sold it to Roy Tyner, who updated it to
    a 1967 and raced it a while before it ended up as a Sportsman car. The web site ultimategto.com has pics of it in it's current configuration, basically
    short-track Sportsman form.

    I'm sure I have seen a picture of it in a book in it's 1967 form as a NASCAR
    Cup car, but I can't figure out what book this would have been. Looked at the
    local Borders without luck, I'm sure that's where I saw it originally.

    Anybody know what book I was looking at? Anybody have the picture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JThur1
    I'm not sure what all races he was in, but Russ Theus did in fact have a Lincoln. IIRC, he was working for Ford at the time. FoMoCo's racing division were none too happy about it.
    I remember it as black. And when it went into the corner, it seemed to oversteer pretty much blocking the turn. Big fun to watch. At any rate I didn't men to pull us off topic. Did anyone ever run a DeSoto in NASCAR? Or a Frazer?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by KenK
    I've been looking for pics of obscure NASCAR race cars lately. It seems that
    there was a 1966 GTO built by Bobby Allison. Hey allegedly ran it 3 times, then
    sold it to H.B. Bailey, who then sold it to Roy Tyner, who updated it to
    a 1967 and raced it a while before it ended up as a Sportsman car. The web site ultimategto.com has pics of it in it's current configuration, basically
    short-track Sportsman form.

    I'm sure I have seen a picture of it in a book in it's 1967 form as a NASCAR
    Cup car, but I can't figure out what book this would have been. Looked at the
    local Borders without luck, I'm sure that's where I saw it originally.

    Anybody know what book I was looking at? Anybody have the picture?


    http://ultimategto.com/1966cars60.htm


    Interesting find....Is this a legit racer?

    Almost looks a little too "street racer". Like the Dodge Kit Car Aspens that they put on the street in the late 70's and early 80's.

    Checked Bobby Allison's Cup (nee Grand National) history back through the 60's and they showed no races in Pontiacs. Don't know where to look for 60's history of the Sportsman series.


    Further look at the pics here. Something fishy.

    This car has a speedometer and working door hinges.

    .

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    Only photo I could find. It's a 66 or 67, and from the number I'd say it's Roy Tyner...


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by tcsparky
    I don't think is was to NASCAR specs, but recall seeing a Lincoln Mark somthing raced during the Saturday TransAm race supporting the 1985 Detroit Grand Prix. It looked like a beast. The crowd hooted and whistled evertime it went by.
    Brooks Frybarger campaigned a Thunderbird in the Trans Am series that was virtually indistinguishable from a Lincoln bodystyle at that time. It was dark midnight blue with white trim, and was driven occasionally by Willy T. Ribbs.

  19. #19
    Member #66 jandj's Avatar
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    As I best recollect, in '66 Bobby Allison was driving a '65 Chevy (think it was a Chevelle). He drove the same car at the start of '67 before driving the Holman-Moody Ford. Somewhere in there he drove at least one race for Cotton Owens in a Dodge, but I don't remember him in a Goat anywhere.
    Last edited by jandj; 10-23-2008 at 05:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48
    Penske's AMC Matador
    I saw this car run at the Governor's Cup in '78, when USAC sanctioned the show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_c_56
    Yep, as I mentioned earlier, Bobby Allison did not drive a Pontiac in the then known as Grand National series during 1967. IIRC, Coca Cola did not become Allison's sponsor until '68 or '69 and he didn't use #12 until the early 70's. His number then was #2 and then #22.

    If that isn't enough, H.B. Bailey's traditional number was 36. While he was a Pontiac stalwart, a check of the records only shows him running two races with a #24 - Atlanta in '62 and the other in a Firebird (!). And wth is up with the Smokey Yunick scheme? I don't know of Bailey ever running anything connected with Smokey.

    Tyner did run a GTO.

    Sniff...sniff...this ain't right.

    It would seem to be either a "re-creation" or something with a conveniently made up history to go with it. Does not match up at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indybigjohn
    Only photo I could find. It's a 66 or 67, and from the number I'd say it's Roy Tyner...

    Excellent photo bigjohn. Thanks for posting it

    It's Tyner's number (9), and he had a GTO, but the name doesn't look like Tyner.

    It's Darlington...

    so, I checked the data at Racing Reference and they have Ben Arnold driving a '67 Pontiac owned by Tyner in the 1968 Southern 500.

    Can't quite make out the name, but it doesn't quite look like Arnold either.

    If it was from a qualifying race, we'll likely never know.

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    It's a scam...

    I hadn't seen the following...

    http://ultimategto.com/cgi-bin/showc...966/66_00296_2

    Good grief...what bad photo shopping...and I do mean bad.

    And that is supposed to prove the car's history?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fueler
    Brooks Frybarger campaigned a Thunderbird in the Trans Am series that was virtually indistinguishable from a Lincoln bodystyle at that time. It was dark midnight blue with white trim, and was driven occasionally by Willy T. Ribbs.
    I couldn't remember the name. But yes, dark blue, white trim, white #77...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamski
    I saw this car run at the Governor's Cup in '78, when USAC sanctioned the show.
    I was there also!
    Was there the previous year when Bobby drove the v6 hornet in the Miller 200. Dave Watson beat him after coming back from a lap down due to a pit 'infraction'.

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    Waiting for the next race KenK's Avatar
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    Well, let's see where we stand:

    We know: Bobby Allison did not race a 1966 or 1967 Pontiac in GN competition;
    Roy Tyner and H.B. Bailey raced 1967 Pontiacs simultaniously.

    Obviously, the history of the car at www.ultimategto.com is suspect.

    Sure wish I could find that book/picture I saw. I remember in the picture the
    car had plain white wheels and some sort of two-tone paint job. Perhaps it was
    the #9 that indybigjohn found, but with a different paint job?

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    the car shown on the gto site has got to be a hoax.the wheels would never been legal,the cut out and flared rear fenders only in some short track series and the roof air dams are a recent innovation.

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    got some more stuff-the aug 1969 cover of stock car racing mag shows Roy Tyners 69 grand prix.
    can be seen at http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Mag2.htm
    also didnt realize roy was the 1st and maybe only native american to compete in nascars highest division.
    I have stock car racing magazine back to its 1st issue in may 1966 but my filing system is a mess- may take a while for more
    Last edited by tcummings; 10-25-2008 at 10:29 PM. Reason: mis spell

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    Waiting for the next race KenK's Avatar
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    the car shown on the gto site has got to be a hoax.the wheels would never been legal,the cut out and flared rear fenders only in some short track series and the roof air dams are a recent innovation.

    Well, the site does state that the car was last raced as a late model
    sportsman.

    The roof ridges are a bit questionable, whoever put them on is
    obviously not historically knowledgeable.

    Still, a poor or incorrect restoration doesn't mean the car is a total fake.
    It's forty+ years old! Hard telling what's been done to it over the years. Heck, at that age many muscle cars have had a hard life.

    It's quite possible that the current owner really believes the story. I've been
    told a few tall tales about cars I've seen for sale.......especially old
    race cars.

  30. #30
    Member #66 jandj's Avatar
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    Opening the fenders was legal in GN back then, there are photo's of Richard's Roadrunner with the front fenders cut on his short track GN car.

    That doesn't change the fact the car in question is bogus.

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