I haven't seen any threads on this throwaway comment by Cavin in yesterday's Star. It gets no response from anyone? It was a blurb in the pull out special for yesterday's race. IBiI
I haven't seen any threads on this throwaway comment by Cavin in yesterday's Star. It gets no response from anyone? It was a blurb in the pull out special for yesterday's race. IBiI
While it isn't a great road course, I'd love to see them use it a whole lot more.
I'd go.
ICS needs to run it. Huge mistake not doing so, IMO.
That would be just plain wrong. And makes no sense from a business/series/image perspective.Originally Posted by Quixter
Brian W Keske
bwkdesign.wordpress.com
"The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite."
-- Thomas Jefferson
I disagree vehemently.
Here's why:
They already own it. It exists.
It's right smack in the middle of the what is by far the largest fan base of OW n the country.
The teams are mostly based in Indy.
They race on road courses, this is one of the most known road courses in the nation. Heck, our country's initials were on the races held there (USGP).
What possible negative to the series image would adding a race on the road course? Who is going to read a story about them racing there and think "that's just wrong. The Edmonton thing, tho, that's grand."
What possible negative business impact is there? Some people might choose to attend that race instead of the 500, I suppose. But I would surmise many, many more would attend both. It's an additional event, it would generate business (read $$$$).
I'll be honest, I have no idea what a 'series perspective' is or has been. I'm curious how you see a road course event there as a negative to it tho.
They payed millions to make it. They own it, pay to keep it up, pay additional taxes on the value it added.... and out of pride or hubris they're NOT gonna run a race where so many of the fans and teams are?
Why exactly?
Please provide some examples of how this would negatively impact their image. And to whom it would appear lessened.
That is easy, it diminishes the 500.
The only time these cars should go to IMS is during the month of May.
How does it diminish the 500? Please be specific.
And to whom?
Why? Because some of the fans are resistant to change?
You'd rather they race in Brazil or Alberta than at Indy?
Gotta agree with you.
IMS is already saturated with races.
If you have a road race, it has to be with a series that brings its own fans who don't go to the oval races. Otherwise, it will just divide the Nascar/Indycar fans over three races instead of two.
With a grand total of TWO car races?
Get past the shock of it and think about it.
I have thought about it. No way in heck would I bring those cars, teams, and series back for a run at that terrible road course.
I'm first and foremost a road racing fan,but even I can see this would delute the 500 as THE event this series is named after.
I've also been to the Brickyard race once, and it did not even it came close to matching the magic of the 500. I understand why they needed to do it, but no way I was going back for that. It just didn't seem like the same place with the 'tin tops' running around.
The crowd will be exactly the same people who already go to the 500 and the BY. The question is how many of those people will come, and how many will skip the 500 or the BY to do it.
No TV money, no corp money for this.
The only way it makes sense financially is if it's a significantly different product that attracts different fans.
Have Indycars ever practiced on the road course?
Those are the largest crowds in American Motorsports, with the possible exception of Sebring (vs the BY400). I'd say that's a good start.
I'm curious. For those who think it will dilute the 500, how many people do you figure stopped going to the 500 in favor of the 400? 50,000? 100,000?
No money from TV?
Why? You think they'd pay for Snornoma or Mid Ohio, but not IMS?
Sure, it will take some selling to get sponsorship of an INDYCAR race to the people and businesses of INDIANA. That doesn't mean it can't be done, or that it is any harder than getting/maintaining sponsorship for current events.
It will be a significantly different product. More importantly it will be an ADDITIONAL product. In a market the product works in. At a facility they already own. In a town where most of the teams are based.
I see.
You don't like the course.
Why didn't you just say that to begin with?
Diluting the 500.... in what way?
Please note that simply repeating that doesn't really provide much insight into why you think that's the case. How will it be diluted? Who will feel it diminshes the 500?
My thought would be to condense the schedule, and make this the event that follows Chicago and closes out the season. Who cares more about the winner of the IRL championships than people who go to IMS? Nobody.
Plus all the teams and personnel used to travel to Indy from Chitown for the banquet anyway.
You mentioned the BY Brian, how many people do you feel attend that at the expense of the 500? 50,000? 100,000?
You really feel it's been diminished and diluted by the BY400 for the entire life of the IRL?
Every empty seat this year for either the 500 or the BY would be sold if you just had one race.I'm curious. For those who think it will dilute the 500, how many people do you figure stopped going to the 500 in favor of the 400? 50,000? 100,000?
I think it's fair to say that road racing fanatics who don't already go to the 500 aren't saying, "Give me the same cars and stars on the IMS road course, and I'm there!"
Any customer who wants to see an oval race has two opportunities, and "good seats are still available."
So the only possible customers are people who already go to the oval races. The only question is whether they'll go to an extra race, or divide the same number of trips over three races.
Sorry, I'm thinking significant TV money, in the millions. Does ABC want another race, with no history and few stars? I don't think they do.No money from TV?
Why? You think they'd pay for Snornoma or Mid Ohio, but not IMS?
AFAIK, IMS already has sponsorship opportunities for its existing oval races. Who is going to sponsor an IRL road race who isn't already sponsoring the 500?Sure, it will take some selling to get sponsorship of an INDYCAR race to the people and businesses of INDIANA. That doesn't mean it can't be done, or that it is any harder than getting/maintaining sponsorship for current events.
If you're saying it's a prestige product, Rule #1 of prestige marketing is scarcity. Better to under produce by 1 than over produce by 1.It will be a significantly different product. More importantly it will be an ADDITIONAL product. In a market the product works in. At a facility they already own. In a town where most of the teams are based.
Last edited by atrackforumfan; 07-27-2009 at 03:23 PM.
I agree with you. You have a huge expensive facility that is designed for racing and it is being underutilized. If I owned IMS, there would be in addition to all the races they have now, one on the 4th of July weekend and one on Labor Day. I don't think any of them would diminish the I500 one bit. The ratings and attendance decline of the I500 would have happened without the BY400 and/or the F1 race.Those are the largest crowds in American Motorsports, with the possible exception of Sebring (vs the BY400). I'd say that's a good start.
I'm curious. For those who think it will dilute the 500, how many people do you figure stopped going to the 500 in favor of the 400? 50,000? 100,000?
No money from TV?
Why? You think they'd pay for Snornoma or Mid Ohio, but not IMS?
Sure, it will take some selling to get sponsorship of an INDYCAR race to the people and businesses of INDIANA. That doesn't mean it can't be done, or that it is any harder than getting/maintaining sponsorship for current events.
It will be a significantly different product. More importantly it will be an ADDITIONAL product. In a market the product works in. At a facility they already own. In a town where most of the teams are based.
Some people will do nearly anything in order to be able to not do anything.
You're talking about a track that for the first 85 years it existed had ONE race per year and was considered the World's Greatest Race Course, a national historic landmark and an unquestioned icon of motorsports worldwide. NASCAR grew to where it was able to fill the speedway and merit being there. The truth is the ICS outside of the 500 doesn't have such an aura to 'make' any racetrack.
The ICS issue is making the series more popular with the other 49 states, they have finally managed to get that moronic I AM INDY put to sleep and begun using the term IndyCar Nation. It's not about everybody else on the planet becoming Indy it's about the series growing across the nation, it doesn't need to be like a turtle pulling more of itself into it's Indianapolis shell.
"You can't arrest those guys, they're folk heroes"
"They're criminals"
"Well most folk heroes started out as criminals"
The rule before that one is to look at revenue potential, look at cost estimates, and pick the point on the chart where the former minus the latter is greatest.
The sport needs to grow. This is one way it could without being massively expensive (did I mention they already OWN IT!).
AFAIK, the IRL's TV deal is $6 million from ABC for four IRL races plus the 500; Versus pays $4 mil for the rest of the season. Based on that scale, how much is an IRL road race at IMS worth?Somebody's paying for Mid Ohio on TV, right? Somebody's paying for Snornona... those are places that are easier to sell racing at? The history would be all around you, even at the inaugural event.
The LAST thing IMS needs to be doing is introducing a discounted product line that competes with its main product. That would be a disaster.Somebody who might like to be a major sponsor of the 500 but can't afford the price tag.
Every empty seat at the 500, every discount from face value of 500 tickets, and the barrage of advertising required to sell as many 400/500 tickets as are currently sold.give me an estimate of what you think the 400 is costing the 500.
Because the product isn't significantly different from the existing product.Why does the fact that fans attend either or both of the current car races mean they are the only people who would come?
People who just want to see a race at Indy already have two chances, and they don't fill the joint. So there are <400K people who would even consider coming to this race. IMS already has their names on a mailing list.
Except for some tiny number of people who actively dislike oval racing, but want to see the stars and cars of the 500 on a road course at the world's most historic racetrack (which is famous for oval racing, though).
Last edited by atrackforumfan; 07-27-2009 at 04:31 PM.
"I agree with you. You have a huge expensive facility that is designed for racing and it is being underutilized. If I owned IMS, there would be in addition to all the races they have now, one on the 4th of July weekend and one on Labor Day. I don't think any of them would diminish the I500 one bit. The ratings and attendance decline of the I500 would have happened without the BY400 and/or the F1 race."
Makes sense...
The reality is there isn't a road racing series in the U.S. (let alone the world) that will come close to filling the place...
Does anyone really think that any road racing series will attract more spectators than F-1 did? Attendance at the USGPs is your glass ceiling for a race on the road course...
For the Indycars to run in front of so few people isn't worth the effort and it does dilute the 500...
Chicago BlackHawks...2010 Stanley Cup Champions...It was fun while it lasted!
F1 or a big motorcycle race are about the only options, and they don't nearly fill it. They will draw people and sponsors who don't do the oval races.
A FOTA F1 race would have been a good deal, because the rights fee would have been reasonable; the auto manufacturers are in business for exposure, and "Grand Prix" racing is pretty much wherever Ferrari is. The fans would come the same as an FIA event.
The 500 would be a sell out if it were the only event. Practice and qualifying would be bigger, too.The ratings and attendance decline of the I500 would have happened without the BY400 and/or the F1 race.
It could and should sell out anyway. These events could build their own separate followings and in time could all be sell outs. In fact if it were up to me, I'd make sure they were all sellouts.
Or people who would like to see a road race by the top American road racing series. (that is ICS these days, btw.... let's be real, GA and ALMS are still small time, which compared to how small ICS is really says something. I suppose you could count Cup, but with only 2 R/C's and fields half full of ringers at those I wouldn't say that qualifies).
IF there's going to be a car race on the R/C, I think it should be ICS. If it's G/A, all of that diluting is still going to happen, with less money in the IRL's pockets.
257K is a *lot* of tickets for that Nascar race. No reason it can't be the biggest Nascar crowd of the year, but that still leaves 100K more seats to sell, and a race that isn't especially exciting, except for its Indy mystique.
Who says it has to be full? There are stands that won't even have any racing in front of them.
Close as many as you need. People see road races on rovals all the time with empty main grandstands.
You do realize that if your last sentence were a qualifier for where they race the schedule would be a LOT shorter, right? As to the dilution theory, would it be preferable to have that dilution with another series there? I wouldn't think so.
I really don't think so. The sport isn't as popular as it once was. The BY400 isn't the reason millions of people have stopped watching Indy on TV.
Yes. Otherwise, there's no point in diluting the existing product.Are you thinking that for some reason IMS would need a bigger TV payment than other tracks would? (just asking)
~$400K in TV money certainly isn't enough money to add an IRL race.
And that "Indy mystique" is quite valuable. By now there is enough history for both the 500 and the 400 to know what seats are going to sell no matter what. it might take a few years of tweaking to get both races to sellouts, but it wouldn't be that hard to do either.
As far as a 4th of July race, a night time enduro on the road course with DP type cars or TA type cars or what ever with a huge fireworks display and plenty of cheap tickets
Labor Day ARCA 300 with $25 tickets in honor of the midwest working families. $3M purse, 6 times the purse of the Daytona ARCA race. That wouldn't even count the money from a sponsor of the race and TV.
They wouldn't have to be empty either. I think there are several distinct groups of fans with SOME overlap. It might take some time and some marketing and some cheap seats, but think about Bristol, the hardest seats in nascar. They didn't start out selling nearly 150K at every Cup race. Far from it. They built up to it from a much smaller crowd. It's not even located in a big population center. It's kind of hard to get to. Mountain roads you know. Use the "Indy mystique" but market to the individual crowds. Make MotoGP a bike week. The facility is there just begging to be used, not year round. Not weekly shows, but for a handful of big events catering to each group.
It would be so easy even I could do it or you. Just pick out a form of racing you'd like to see and then think of how "you" (and I mean any of you) would get people there.
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