In Gordon White's book on the Offy he says that the first Miller design was a copy of another engine that was brought to the shop for repair.Originally Posted by ZOOOM
many years from now we'll find out that the original otto cylcle engine was built by Otto Von Yunick in a cave in 10,000 bc.. or was it Al Gore?
Some People Race For A Living
I Live To Race
RIPOriginally Posted by Rick Jones
I was at fast Friday and was right behind Smiley's pits. He got out of the car after some hot laps and everyone was smiling and joking around - including Smiley. He had less than 24 hours to live...
Peugeot?Originally Posted by Super44
My point was that those races were finishes and not engine failures. You made it sound like the aluminum Pontiac never lasted.Originally Posted by DaveL
All but one of them from Riverside in '83. Couldn't resist throwing in the one of Kneifel napping on a stack of tires at Phoenix that year.
The '84 version with the Pontiac was more reliable than the Chevy's, so in that respect I exaggerated and am willing to acknowledge this. The lack of reliability on the part of the Chevy's in the earlier models cannot be disputed. Additionally, it cannot be argued that on ovals the '84 car was anything but a dog sled and there was no immediate hope that it was going to get any better.Originally Posted by flatlander_48
As I wrote before, the car may have looked pretty and sounded great but save for a brief moment at Long Beach when Chandler got up to second place, by '84 it was no threat to the Cosworth powered March and Lolas.
The Ayn Rand of Indycar
No one had to badge the Offy.
Old school! Both Stan Fox and Lee Kunzman. I had an admiration for Lee Kunzman as a driver, and even more so running Hemelgarn racing. Where was the horrific crash that Kunzman survived that basically ended his racing career?Originally Posted by Rick Jones
By the way, this is one of my favorite photos that I have taken. It has plenty of emotion, depicting the close relationship of a former driver with the driver. It depicts a sense of focus or intensity on Kunzman's face.
Lee survived two horrific crashes that would've killed a lesser man, and still came back to race! Burned and broke his neck at Odessa in 1970, then went into a coma following a testing crash at Ontario in '73. He was a heck of a driver, too bad the accidents blunted his edge.
It was a development of the same engine; just rebadged...Originally Posted by DaveL
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
.....'flatlander, your mention of Peugeot probably went in one ear and out the other of most. I agree with you that the French engine was generally regarded as the prerunner to all overhead-cam, multi-valve engine designs of the 20th century. Even preceding Alfa Romeo, who was close behind. So, thanks for that.
.....'And MichaelFerner's comments about Lee Kunzman: 'very accurate. That December of 1973, both Kunzman in Bob Fletcher's Cobre Tire Team and Mario Andretti in the Vel's Parnelli Viceroy, both had big accidents tire testing at Ontario. Andretti received a concussion, and luckless Kunzman, the before-mentioned coma. 'Too bad for such a dedicated racer.
Sort of used to that in these parts.Originally Posted by LittleFauss
Anyway, I've always though it was funny that they sometimes refer to a Peugeot in the UK as a Pug...
Man, that car didn't look half bad before Cogan wrapped it around the front stretch pit wall... Love that Schaefer Beer logo on the engine cover...Originally Posted by Rick Jones
I thought it was essentially the same design, but done to accommodate the Porsche engine.Originally Posted by Rick Jones
I see slight differences around the cockpit, the shape of the sidepods ahead of the rear wheels, the rear wing support and the nose cone. However, the sidepod shaping, the rear wing support and the nose cone don't necessarily have anything to do with the tub. The shaping around the cockpit is a maybe.
I'd assume that in most respects they are the same chassis, but the cockpit area, especially ahead of the cockpit is quite different. The Fabi car it looks more bulbous before sloping toward the nose piece. Obviously the cockpit layout is different. In the Cogan car has a windscreen that cuts into the side and front of the tub. This makes me wonder about the front suspension mounting points. It seems that they must be lower on the Cogan car because of how low the windscreen bodywork goes.Originally Posted by flatlander_48
The Porsche was probably a lower center of gravity engine and a lower rear cowling is possibly affecting how the front side of the car is perceived or sculpted.
One point about the nose cone:
Note where the leading edge of the front wing is with respect to the tip of the nose. Assuming that the wings for both cars are the same distance from the front axle centerline, then the Quaker State car has a much shorter nose. In part, this could account for the the more rounded profile of the nose. However, it could also be as you said but we would need the 3/4 photo of Cogan's car to be sure.
Also, it's a good thing that they have spotters because those mirrors aren't going to tell you much.
They didn't have spotters when Cogan and Fabi were racing. That came later. It's amazing that racing survived all of those years without spotters.Originally Posted by flatlander_48
Originally Posted by indyrjc
Or wings and gimmicks.
How did racing survive at all before 1972.
"You just don't know what Indy Means" Al Unser Jr.
Thing is, folks who progressed through sprint cars, midgets, etc. had no history with mirrors. Conversely, road racing guys did. Over the years I've seen lots of folks get pinched into the wall when they tried an outside pass on a short track. Nothing is perfect...
However, those mirrors were a joke. I don't think they covered half of your palm...
Actually they don't.Originally Posted by Rick Jones
March did not sell customer chassis in '89. March only produced custom chassis for Porsche and Alfa Romeo and '89. Ditto 1990.
The car Cogan drove was an '88 model.
From the MARCH site:
87C, Indy car, for Cosworth engines, 33 built
88C, Indy car, for Porsche, Illmor, Cosworth engines, 20 built
89P, Indy car, for Porsche engines, 4 built
89C/89CE, Indy car, for Alfa Romeo (originally intended for Ferrari engines), 2 built
90C, Indy car, did not race, no other information
90P, Indy car, for Porsche engines, last MARCH to win a major race, no other information
Some b&w stuff from Phoenix '77, including one for all you LInda Vaughn fans...
And here's one of Teo in the 89P....
And one of him in the 90P......
I have more of the "Ps" that I will upload at some point in the future.
That photo explains a lot...Originally Posted by marc sproule
Dave, here are two examples of the 88 Narch chassis. I believe that you are right and this is why I posted my initial question about the number of versions of the '89 March. I lost a year, forgetting that March came back in '88 with a better car than what they produced in '87. The 1987 March did not adapt well to the radial tires if I remember correctly and at Indy only a few teams seemed to get a handle on the set-up. There were numerous crashes. Al Unser won Indy in the '86 version in 1987 which was a great car, aside from all the feet and leg injuries.Originally Posted by DaveL
Originally Posted by ndcrs
I am saying that it must have been cold that day.
"In America, the winner goes to Victory Lane, everybody else goes to the garage and should soak their tears in their beer and figure out how to be faster next week."