Honda engine management

[JagtechOhio]

Not knowing much about the current Honda engines, I was surprised to hear that they rely on Lambda sensor feedback for monitoring the mixture. That starts to creep into familiar territory for me, so I'll ask the following:

Are the injection systems on the current Honda engine using a "fly by wire" throttle body with a throttle position sensor? If injector pulse and ignition timing is all digitally controlled by an ECU, it stands to reason that throttle operation is as well. Any information on the current Honda engines would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Stay on track
Andrew Bernstein

[KenK]

Andrew, you need to get out (from under the Jaguar hoods) more often.

EVERY car made in the last 20+ years uses Lambda (Oxygen) sensor feedback
for mixture control. Most Domestic cars had oxygen sensors starting in 1981.

As for electronic throttle control: I don't know about current model Hondas
specifically, but more and more vehicles are using this. Even pick-up trucks
have had this for several years now.

So...why the sudden interest in Honda engines?

[JagtechOhio]

Hi Ken,

Jaguar's first use of O2 sensors (Bosche) was 1975, electronically controlled throttle bodies (fly by wire Jaguar/ Denso) was home market 1996 XK8. So I get the picture, fuel trims have been long term in my toolbox.

What I don't know about is the current Honda engine management system in use for ICS application. If I was aware of the componentry or nomenclature, there might be a whole lot of the system I already understand.Thanks,

Andrew Bernstein

[KenK]

I doubt that there's anything in the Honda ICS engine management system
that you haven't seen before on a street car. The mfg's are usually tight-lipped
about such things, but it seems that in recent years engine management
systems have become essentially the same, especially since OBD II was
mandated. I see no reason that the race systems would be significantly
different. If anything, the race systems are just more simplified.

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if many of the sensors are the same ones
that go on the street cars.

[JagtechOhio]

Honda's racing website says the HI9R has four valves per cylinder and dual overhead cams. Huh?

I'd guess this is a four cam engine with variable valve timing. Anybody know?

[Marc P. Gregoire]

The current Honda engine is:
- 90 degree dual overhead cam V8, 32 valves. Variable timing prohibited.
- 2 fuel injectors per cylinder
- 93 mm bore by 64.4 mm stroke. Bore and bore spacing are rules mandated.
- 10,300 rpm redline
- 14+:1 compression ratio
- 630 hp

In ALMS, their engine is based on the engine they were developing to replace the Ilmor designed motor.

[JagtechOhio]

Cheers for that Professor,

There's a few answers, thanks. As for questions:

It has to be a four cam, right?

I have read 650, even 670 on Rahal/ Letterman's site (2008). Is 630 HP correct?

I believe the new redline is 10,500 RPM with the overtake assist. Apparently that's a remap to advance ignition timing, enrichment and raise the revs a bit, but that's about the ceiling for this engine. Does that agree with your information?

Thanks for your contribution.

Andy

[RS2]

Well, since it a DOHC motor and it is a V8 it has to have four cams.

[RS2]

I was watching Formula Nippon and the redline seemed to be just under 13,000rpm from the graphics from the in-car shot. I cannot find one from you tube. But it sounds like it revs pretty much higher than in the IRL. BTW these are the second fastest OW cars racing besides F1. The IRL does not need a new engine really. Just let it run how it supposed to. And get Toyota and Cosworth back would help also. Audi could come with their Honda V8 they use in DTM and would not even need to build an engine from scratch.

[JagtechOhio]

I would expect so too, and read the discrepancy on Honda's website: that's why I raised the question.

After seeing the Mercedes pushrod layout, I'm reminded that an awful lot is possible. I can't see why the Honda would in fact be a DOHC, but it certainly can be done. I believe it's just a typo.

A Jaguar V12 is a double overhead cam engine. That's 'cause it has two camshafts. Each lobe directly actuates one valve, but you could operate paired valves with a rocker arm arrangement if you wanted to contrive it.

The engines I work on now are stock Jaguar 4.0 litre V8's, with an indirect lineage to Cosworth design. 32 valve, four cam. V V T which causes enough tensioner problems due to camshaft phasing that it might prove to be impractical at much higher RPMs.

I really can't tell much from the Honda engine photos at Ilmor. Looks like an external water pump on the left side down low, with the alternator driven off the back of it. Not much else to see without a cutaway/ disassembled view, or a diagram.

One other thing about the overtake assist, it also cuts out the alternator to eliminate the minor parasitic loss. Any other resources I can check out? Thanks,

Andy

[JagtechOhio]

Thanks for that, those are pretty slick little rockets. One engine cover said Honda, the other nose said Toyota.

Helluva long straightaway, wasn't it? And I like the way dude hustled it onto pit lane.

[RS2]

I am kind suprised by you being confused with the teminology. DOHC. Dual overhead camshafts. That means two camshafts per head. A V-8 natrually has two heads. So four camshafts. A VW W-12 is a DOHC motor. But has three heads so it has 6 camshafts. and so on. The Jaguar motors you work on are also DOHC engines. And they have a direct link to Porsche. Porsche designed the combustion chamber archtecture.

[JagtechOhio]

Oh, OK. That means a Jaguar V 12 is a single overhead camshaft engine, beacause it has one per bank. News to me, and I've counted an awful lot of pairs of them. Here I thought a single overhead cam engine was an old straight six Pontiac Firebird mill.

Equally enlightening is the Porsche lineage, which I will be anxious to read more about. Please instruct me further, but I was really looking for Honda HI9R information.

Apparently I have more to learn than I thought. Thanks for the help.

Andy

[RS2]

Sorry, the only thing I can find in english is a wikipedia article about the AJV6.

Ford Motor Company's modern 2.5 L and 3.0 L V6 automobile engines are evolutions of the same design, first used in the 1994 Ford Mondeo. This line is sold under the brand name "Duratec", as are many other engines.
The Mondeo V6 is a modern aluminum DOHC V6 with a 60° bank angle. The primary engineering input came from Porsche, who were developing a similar V6 before selling the engineering to Ford, and Cosworth, who helped with cylinder head manufacturing. The Jaguar AJ-V6 engine is similar but adds variable valve timing. Mazda's AJ version also has this feature.

[JagtechOhio]

Apples and oranges, my man. The Jaguar V6 engine family is a completely new and different lineage from the AJ26/27/33 etc. Jaguar V8 engines.

The first time I had a AJ6 head in my hands ('88), it was immediately apparent that the configuration looked just like the Cosworth BDA's I had worked on ('80-'81). All of Jaguar's in-house engine architechture has relied on that basic porting and combustion chamber configuration since then. The V6 is an ugly step-child.

So that's twice now I have to point out what I know about engines and management systems in defense of my credibility. You want to call me ignorant, that's fine: I don't know a damn thing about a Honda HI9R. That's why I raised the topic.
__________________________________________________ ____________
STAY ON TRACK
Andrew Bernstein

[RS2]

"So that's twice now I have to point out what I know about engines and management systems in defense of my credibility. You want to call me ignorant, that's fine:"

What are you talking about. Nobody including me has done any such thing.

[JagtechOhio]

KenK's first post talks to me like I'm some kind of rube.

So does this:

"I am kind suprised by you being confused with the teminology."

Do you know anything about Honda IndyCar engines, or not?

[RS2]

It is kind of suprising that you seem to be confused with the teminology. There is SOHC and DOHC. No big deal. If you look at it how you were. How could you have a V-engine be SOHC? You could not unless the engine was a pushrod engine upside down. All I pointed out was that it has to do with how many cams are in the head.

And do I know about the Honda engine? Just enough to know that it can rev to close to 13,000rpm when in Formula Nippon tune.

[JagtechOhio]

You didn't read my posts, which is fine. You don't have answers to my questions, so I will longer read yours.

Does anybody reading this have photos/ blueprints/ knowledge of Honda HI9R engines? Thank you.

[rrrr]

Are the injection systems on the current Honda engine using a "fly by wire" throttle body with a throttle position sensor? If injector pulse and ignition timing is all digitally controlled by an ECU, it stands to reason that throttle operation is as well. Any information on the current Honda engines would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

The engine uses a cable for throttle operation. Each cylinder has a separate throttle body and intake air horn. The horns can be varied in length to provide different torque characteristics for various tracks.

[RS2]

You didn't read my posts, which is fine. You don't have answers to my questions, so I will longer read yours.

Does anybody reading this have photos/ blueprints/ knowledge of Honda HI9R engines? Thank you.

I am pretty sure this is not the attitude to have here if you want answers.

[JagtechOhio]

It ain't the one I walked in with. Read my first post.

[RS2]

It ain't the one I walked in with. Read my first post.

I read your first post. Nothing abnormal about it.

This is where I walked in just to give some info about your questioning of the cam issue you seem to have.

Honda's racing website says the HI9R has four valves per cylinder and dual overhead cams. Huh?

I'd guess this is a four cam engine with variable valve timing. Anybody know?
Yesterday 05:47 PM

[JagtechOhio]

rrrr,

Thanks for that. So there must be a central (cable operated) turntable with a throttle potentiometer on it, and linkage to each butterfly?

[Jakester]

How could you have a V-engine be SOHC? You could not unless the engine was a pushrod engine upside down.

Maybe I'm not understanding your post, but there are several examples of V engines that are SOHC.

Way back, the old Ford 427 SOHC. More currently, the Ford 4.6L V8 that you can find in Mustangs and trucks.

OHC (OverHead Cam) refers to the position of the camshaft relative to the engine valves, not whether a camshaft is acts directly on the valves or through rocker arms.

[JagtechOhio]

Ok, I guess the original question should have been

"Does anybody feel like arguing semantics?"

I'm quite familiar with engines from the inside, thanks. Not the Mercedes pushrod arrangement, that's for sure. So the Honda engine is a four cam, just like the V8 Jags I rebuild, or it is a 32 valve, two cam (as in double) (as in DOHC) design that is as foreign a concept to me as was the Mercedes.

You could build a four valve per cylinder V8 head with one camshaft and a rocker arrangement, if you were rich and sadistic enough. Then you would call it a DOHC V8, unless you were sadistic enough to call it a SOHC.

So I'll try to make this simple. How many camshafts does a Honda HI9R engine have?

A Formula Nippon engine turning 13,000 RPM is irrelevant. Was that in the car badged as a Toyota? If it was in the one badged as a Honda, you'll have to prove to me it was a HI9R engine. I believe that is impossible from what I have read, but I'll go do the homework for myself.

[JagtechOhio]

Roger Griffiths, Honda Performance development, discussing the addition of silencers for the 2009 season:

"In addition to sounding like an Indy Car should, the 2009 Honda V-8 will have an all-new exhaust system that will bolt on the car, but as far as adding more 150 horsepower on road courses, as had been discussed, Griffiths doesn't think that's feasible.

"It's extremely difficult to make those kinds of power changes to a normally-aspirated engine," he explained."
__________________________________________________ ______________

I would imagine the same would be said for raising the redline from 10,500 to 13,000 RPM.

[JagtechOhio]

Closest thing I've found to pics so far. The throttle cable is visible, no shots without the airbox off. Lamba sensors in the header collectors.

Note that this is the 2007 installation, the '09 has 180 degree headers with the silincers fitted.

Decent look at the fore and aft mounting points, not much else to see.

Please enlighten me if I missed something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9XrceZLUg8

[Jakester]

"Does anybody feel like arguing semantics?"

WELL EXCUSE ME, I was trying to help out with the commonly used definitions of engine arrangement...but if you wish to start making insulting posts....

So I'll try to make this simple. How many camshafts does a Honda HI9R engine have?

OK, here's a simple answer. FOUR!

Here's a less simple (more semantic??) answer:
There are two camshafts in each head of this V8 engine. One camshaft on each head operates the intake valves (two for each cylinder, 8 in each head, 16 total). One camshaft on each head operates the exhaust valves (two for each cylinder, 8 in each head, 16 total.

Thus, in common parlance the Honda HI9R engine is a dual overhead cam, four valve engine.

I'm quite familiar with engines from the inside, thanks. Not the Mercedes pushrod arrangement, that's for sure. So the Honda engine is a four cam, just like the V8 Jags I rebuild, or it is a 32 valve, two cam (as in double) (as in DOHC) design that is as foreign a concept to me as was the Mercedes.

You could build a four valve per cylinder V8 head with one camshaft and a rocker arrangement, if you were rich and sadistic enough. Then you would call it a DOHC V8, unless you were sadistic enough to call it a SOHC.

Honestly Jagtech...from the statements above, you're either quite UNfamiliar with engines from the inside or you're just jerking our chains. As a picture is worth a thousand words, please click the following link to see what an OHV, OHC, SOHC, and DOHC engine look like:

http://www.samarins.com/glossary/dohc.html




I'm gonna make one last response to your other posts, and I think I'm done here.

I would imagine the same would be said for raising the redline from 10,500 to 13,000 RPM.

Raising the redline to a certain degree would be 'relatively' trivial..maybe 13K is stretching it, but perhaps not as stroke length is probably the biggest factor. New camshaft profiles and tweaked engine management. The biggest effect would be reduced engine life. And, no it probably wouldn't produce an additional 150 horsepower.
The 2.65L turbo motors produced by Toyota, Honda, Mercedes/Chevy/Ilmor regularly turned 16.5K but crankshaft life was quite limited.

Note that this is the 2007 installation, the '09 has 180 degree headers with the silincers fitted.

I don't believe the 09 version has 180 degree headers (the term commonly used for headers whose pipes 'cross over' cylinder heads.

Several years back, the ICS engines did change to 180 degree (or flat) crankshafts.

[JagtechOhio]

The new Indy car mufflers
Photo by Tom Beeler/RIS
The exhaust now uses 180-degree headers, which are currently manufactured by two firms for Honda.

Reports indicate a small drop in horsepower with the loss of the flow-through, back-pressure relief, but a drop in ambient decibel noice of over 10dB, which is pretty significant if you spend any time around these engines
__________________________________________________ ____________
The above excerpt is from Racing Information Systems, May 9, 2009
__________________________________________________ _____________
Excerpt from HPD, Jan. 29, 2009:

But Roger Griffiths of Honda Performance Development intends to have the normally-aspirated V-8s that power the entire IndyCar lineup singing a different tune in 2009.

"We're going to put a silencer on the engines next year and give them a much sweeter sound," said Griffiths, the race team technical leader for HPD.
__________________________________________________ ______________



That's a Jaguar AJ26, 1996-1998 . I took this photo while performing a cylinder leakage test during assembly. Lots of chains to pull, 'cause it's a four cam engine. All alloy 4 valves per cylinder 4.0L V8




That's the same AJ26 completed, I only put this picture here since it has my company logo in the background for authentication.
__________________________________________________ ___________


Does anyone have information, photos or diagrams of the Honda HI9R engine? Thank you.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Stay on track
Andrew Bernstein