No more NNS at Richmond?

[jandj]

A thought while checking tonight's race -
I've read where some people say the reason Indycars aren't at RIR any more is because attendance didn't support it.
There's no more people there tonight for NNS than there was at ICS races.
Surprising, as I've heard NNS is "The second most popular series in the world" more than once on TV (if you hear it on TV it's got to be true.)
I texted a friend who's there and asked him, he's been to several ICS races at RIR (I didn't want to hear "It just looks empty on TV" without some firsthand confirmation) and he said there's fewer people there tonight than there were at the last couple of ICS races..
You reckon ISC will dump NNS, since apparently attendance doesn't support it?
Nah, didn't think so....

edit: After some of the most recent aerial shots, I'll amend "There's no more people there tonight for NNS than there was at ICS races" to "There's a damn sight fewer".

[Doctorindy]

Nationwide series attendance has been going down steadily. One thing worth noting is that Cup has increased their number of Saturday night races over the years, which essentially forces NNS to have more Friday night races. Holding races on Friday is asking a lot of the fans, especially once school is back in session. Some people just can get there in time for the NNS race.

[SnakePitLounge]

Doesnt NNS ask for half the sanction fee Indycar does?

edit: After some of the most recent aerial shots, I'll amend "There's no more people there tonight for NNS than there was at ICS races" to "There's a damn sight fewer".[/QUOTE]

[use2know]

Doesnt NNS ask for half the sanction fee Indycar does?

Yep... and a 'damn sight' larger TV revenue check... Therefore your chances of making a profit are better off of a NNS than they are off of an IndyCar event of the same attendance...

[jandj]

Since the figures in question aren't generally bandied about by the respective organizations and they don't make their business dealing open affairs, all I can do is check the intardweb for sites that seem to know what they're talking about.
The sanction fee for a NNS race is reputed to be 1.2 Mil (which RIR/ISC pays to NASCAR, i.e. - itself).
It's been posted here at various times by people who claim to know that IndyCar asked 1 Mil.
If that's true, the ICS fee is $200,000 less.
At RIR, that's offset for the NNS race by ISC basically paying itself the fee.
It's also been said (by posters claiming "to know") that the title sponsor puts up a good percentage of, if not all of the sanctioning fee so that comes into play as well.

According to Speed, the current TV deal is reported to be $560-$570 Mil for this year.
65% of that goes to the tracks.
There are 30 tracks that run Trucks,NNS, or Cup to account for that money.
Divided equally, that's $12,350,000 per track but I know it's not divided equally as some tracks have more races than others.
I also don't know how that's divided up between Trucks,NNS, and Cup so I can't say how much TV money RIR gets for a NNS race.
As for TV money, I'm sure the track gets more from NASCAR than ICS.
Unless ratings and attendance improve dramatically the next TV won't be that sweet.
NASCAR has already announced NNS purses will be cut by as much as 20% next year, and that's payed for by TV money too.
My guess is that the amount that goes to the tracks will shrink as well.

The main point in my original post is that when RIR was dropped, the prevailing opinion was that the race died because fans didn't support it.

Well, the fans aren't supporting NNS either. Last nights attendance was substantially smaller than any ICS race held there.
There were sections that were filled for Indycar that weren't even open.
You want to say the race left RIR because of other reasons, or that another race is more profitable that's fine, I just got tired of hearing it was because the fans didn't support it or the track lost money.

One other thing - RIR has run NNS on Friday night for years and used to draw almost 3/4 of what a Cup race did. If the attendance is down there, it's not because of when the race is run. People have either lost interest of just found other things to do.

I'm guessing there will be a good turn-out tomorrow night.
RIR has lowered some ticket prices, you can get a seat now for about half of what it cost a few years ago - which leads me to wonder if the race is worth less now or were fans being gouged before...but we all know the answer to that one.
The last comment applies to anything that becomes popular and is not a shot at RIR,ISC,NASCAR, or anyone or anything else.
Hell, I wish IMS would drop the prices on some tickets.
I know damn well I wouldn't pay $85 for some of 'em!

[use2know]

If you want to believe those numbers, then fine... Ya got me... Totally blowin' smoke on this one... Couldn't be more wrong... Busted by a guy and Google... who would have thunk it.

[jandj]

I made it clear where I got the numbers from and made no claim they were 100% accurate.
Since you make the implication that you know, put up or shut up.
How much was the sanction fee for the most recent ISC race at RIR?
How much is the sanction fee for a NNS race there currently?
How much TV money does the track receive for a NNS race?
How much TV money did the track receive for the most recent ICS race?
In the interest of accuracy, I'm sure you'll want to share that info with us so we'll all know the deal.

[KevMcNJ]

Seems like the Nationwide series is the series they dont know what to do with
It is supposedly the AAA league for producing the next crop of drivers but its dominated by Cuppers almost every week. Drivers that need the laps arent in the race and Cuppers are using it to get data for the Saturday race. So how do they up and comers get the needed laps?
Its said by some that the series needs the Cuppers in it to bring out the fans but it apparently didnt help last night from what I read here. It was on here but I was laying flooring so it was more like background noise so I cant say how good or bad the crowd was
TV money is keeping the wheels moving but what happens when the next contract is done? Lots of blank fenders out there, even some of the Big Name teams. 20% pay cut in 2010 wont help.
Long /Short seems to be...

a) The next Gen drivers dont get noticed or will have to spend a season or two learning on Sunday what they used to learn on Saturday if/when they ever make The Show
b) The PTB know trouble is coming but dont have the solution yet so they just keep on keeping on for now
c) They stopped pretending the Nationwide is the training division and let it run as is

Letting the Cuppers run because it brings the fans out also doenst help the new drivers create a fan base. Hard to get noticed when youre racing for 18th , not making the show or not even showing up any longer cuz youve been crowded out by the Interlopers
What happens when the current crop starts retiring in the 2010s? People coming to see the Busch boys, Edwards, Harvick etc. will see the line up on Sunday and ask who are these guys? Not really sure who they are cuz they havent been creatign headlines in the 200 mile races for several seasons

JMHO of course. Flame away

[use2know]

"put up or shut up"...

Not sure about the 'put up' part... and unfortunately, 'shut up' just isn't in my nature...

First off, let's set some context...:

There is this belief in current web society that if one cannot produce a link, then the info is 100% bogus... and even when a link is provided, then there seems to be two schools of thought... 'If it has a link, it must be gospel...' or 'discredit the source and blow off the link as inaccurate'...
(I know... I hate gray areas too...) With that being said, how about I just keep pulling unsubstantiated doo-doo out from between my great 'southern cheeks' region... (just a way of sayin' 'no linky' here...)

1) If my Magic-8 Ball is correct, two numbers keep popping up... $1.5 mil. and $800K. I'm also seeing a name... "Craig Rust" from Chicagoland (wait... didn't they 'use 2' have and IndyCar event?)... Now if I had any sense, I would probably just do a quick search for that one to see if anything turned up... but I don't 'put up'... not my nature.

2) There seemed to have been a main point to my original post... But I'm not sure what that would have been... Maybe something along the lines that ANY TV money for a NNS race would be greater than the TV money distributed by 16th and Georgetown... Now you might have to read between the lines a little on this one... there's a 'goose egg' involved... (see 'Appendix A' for what you will discredit as a totally bogus source on this one...)

3) I know this is going to sound strange, (but that's nothing new with my posts)... But the NASCAR reduction of purse money for the NNS and CWTS events will actually make it easier and less costly for a facility to host an event... That was the whole idea behind the announced move. Try and wrap your head around this fabricated bedtime story for a sec...: NASCAR does not pay the purse money... that $$$ comes out of the facility coffers. That is why God invented Title Sponsors... (again, see 'Appendix A')

Appendix A) In retrospect, blaming my trusty Magic-8 just isn't fair... So to help this fractured fairy tale along, let's just say that I have a 'better half' who has seen several years of gainful employment in the wonderful world of motorsports... Kinda how we met... Somewhere in this mess of a house resides a box full of paycheck stubs (she wasn't a big fan of direct deposit) amassed from services rendered to a few sanctioning bodies, a couple of race teams, and... (wait for it...) a company that just happens to own a few racing facilities... Facilities that have hosted events from the likes of NASCAR, the NHRA, the artist 'previously known as' the IRL... and yes, even the 'evil' CART and CCWS... Gotta LUV my little media/public relations 'fuzz bunny'... Maybe one day I'll post pics from the wedding...

Now please remember that this entire post is pure BS....! Nothing more than anonymous words on an obscure internet forum...! DO NOT BEIEVE ANYTHING I TYPE HERE....!

There... a sufficient warning label has been attached... Now I will do as you ask and just 'shut up'...

[jandj]

Put up or shut up may not have been the best choice of words on my part, it wasn't intended as confrontational as it sounded.
Sorry about that.
You said my numbers were wrong and I was blowing smoke.
I asked (since your post implied you had better info) what the real numbers were.
Your response isn't any more specific than my original post was.
You suggest and suppose, just as I did.
In the end, you may well know the figures in question but "I know but I can't say" doesn't help.

"put up or shut up"...

Not sure about the 'put up' part... and unfortunately, 'shut up' just isn't in my nature...

First off, let's set some context...:

There is this belief in current web society that if one cannot produce a link, then the info is 100% bogus... and even when a link is provided, then there seems to be two schools of thought... 'If it has a link, it must be gospel...' or 'discredit the source and blow off the link as inaccurate'...
(I know... I hate gray areas too...) With that being said, how about I just keep pulling unsubstantiated doo-doo out from between my great 'southern cheeks' region... (just a way of sayin' 'no linky' here...)

1) If my Magic-8 Ball is correct, two numbers keep popping up... $1.5 mil. and $800K. I'm also seeing a name... "Craig Rust" from Chicagoland (wait... didn't they 'use 2' have and IndyCar event?)... Now if I had any sense, I would probably just do a quick search for that one to see if anything turned up... but I don't 'put up'... not my nature.

2) There seemed to have been a main point to my original post... But I'm not sure what that would have been... Maybe something along the lines that ANY TV money for a NNS race would be greater than the TV money distributed by 16th and Georgetown... Now you might have to read between the lines a little on this one... there's a 'goose egg' involved... (see 'Appendix A' for what you will discredit as a totally bogus source on this one...)

3) I know this is going to sound strange, (but that's nothing new with my posts)... But the NASCAR reduction of purse money for the NNS and CWTS events will actually make it easier and less costly for a facility to host an event... That was the whole idea behind the announced move. Try and wrap your head around this fabricated bedtime story for a sec...: NASCAR does not pay the purse money... that $$$ comes out of the facility coffers. That is why God invented Title Sponsors... (again, see 'Appendix A')

Appendix A) In retrospect, blaming my trusty Magic-8 just isn't fair... So to help this fractured fairy tale along, let's just say that I have a 'better half' who has seen several years of gainful employment in the wonderful world of motorsports... Kinda how we met... Somewhere in this mess of a house resides a box full of paycheck stubs (she wasn't a big fan of direct deposit) amassed from services rendered to a few sanctioning bodies, a couple of race teams, and... (wait for it...) a company that just happens to own a few racing facilities... Facilities that have hosted events from the likes of NASCAR, the NHRA, the artist 'previously known as' the IRL... and yes, even the 'evil' CART and CCWS... Gotta LUV my little media/public relations 'fuzz bunny'... Maybe one day I'll post pics from the wedding...

Now please remember that this entire post is pure BS....! Nothing more than anonymous words on an obscure internet forum...! DO NOT BEIEVE ANYTHING I TYPE HERE....!

There... a sufficient warning label has been attached... Now I will do as you ask and just 'shut up'...

[MoparsRule]

IMO it is ridiculous that nascarfan will show up on Saturday night to watch the "name" drivers but won't show up on Friday night to watch stockcar racing.

[SnakePitLounge]

I made it clear where I got the numbers from and made no claim they were 100% accurate.
Since you make the implication that you know, put up or shut up.
How much was the sanction fee for the most recent ISC race at RIR?
How much is the sanction fee for a NNS race there currently?
How much TV money does the track receive for a NNS race?
How much TV money did the track receive for the most recent ICS race?
In the interest of accuracy, I'm sure you'll want to share that info with us so we'll all know the deal.

My claim came from the Chicago race that was stated by a number of sources...track owner, Curt Cavin, Boles, etc. So if NNS is asking for half of what Indycar is at Chicago how do we know they aren't at other places??? You provided no more fact than others have...your just pulling numbers from websites that are guesstimated like everyone else.

[jandj]

My claim came from the Chicago race that was stated by a number of sources...track owner, Curt Cavin, Boles, etc. So if NNS is asking for half of what Indycar is at Chicago how do we know they aren't at other places??? You provided no more fact than others have...your just pulling numbers from websites that are guesstimated like everyone else.

First of all - My post is referring to RIR. Not Chicago, not anywhere else.
It's addressing the claim that the ISC race at RIR was lost because the fans didn't support it.
Not because of sanctioning fees, TV money, or anything else.
I made it clear from the get-go that the figures I mentioned we in no way guaranteed to be accurate and not claimed to be fact.
I was "wondering" that if that lack of fan support was the case, as was often stated - would the same fate befall a NASCAR event that drew less fans than the ICS race.
The mentions of sanctioning fees and TV money came up in this thread.
So far, nobody has provided any real figures.
The figures I found may indeed be off base, but until accurate ones are made public, they're as good as anyone else's numbers.
Clear enough?

[KevMcNJ]

IMO it is ridiculous that nascarfan will show up on Saturday night to watch the "name" drivers but won't show up on Friday night to watch stockcar racing.

Which is complete horse-S**t

Most of the tracks I hit these days, I have no idea who any of the drivers are. Im there to hopefully see some good racing

Ive gone to college hockey games in NJ and Maine where I didnt know the name of one single solitary player on wither roster. I was there to see whcuh team was better that night

Same reason I go to the races.

Too many 88 fans

Or 18 or 24 or 12

Not enough race fans there.

Sort of goes back to what I posted earlier about shaking the money tree for all its worth now without worrying about what happens later when all the big names go away

Seems like what happened when Mario, Sneva, Mears Johncock all went away in half a decade

[Z28]

Which is complete horse-S**t

Most of the tracks I hit these days, I have no idea who any of the drivers are. Im there to hopefully see some good racing

Ive gone to college hockey games in NJ and Maine where I didnt know the name of one single solitary player on wither roster. I was there to see whcuh team was better that night

Same reason I go to the races.

Too many 88 fans

Or 18 or 24 or 12

Not enough race fans there.

Sort of goes back to what I posted earlier about shaking the money tree for all its worth now without worrying about what happens later when all the big names go away

Seems like what happened when Mario, Sneva, Mears Johncock all went away in half a decade

I fully support your right to enjoy racing any way you see fit. At the same time please realize that all fans don't fall into the same category and they shouldn't be required to. The sport can only be bigger by inclusion of fans any way they find to enjoy the sport. That simple concept seems lost on most who revel in how exclusionary their narrow point of view is.

Having stars, genuine or manufactured, is how NASCAR grew and they did it despite losing several tragically, Davey Allison, Alan Kulwicki, Neil Bonnett along the way even before Dale Earnhardt. The thing is they had enough 'names' in their field to transition into new groups becoming prominent to replace the old, or fading. NASCAR decided that their path to success was to attract fans to the stars they created and while they aren't as high as they were nor still growing as they dreamed they're hardly in dire trouble. They created NASCAR, and primarliy Cup, fans. I wish they would have taken a course that created 'race fans' because not only would their Truck and Nationwide series' been better off the Indycar series would have been able to reap the benefits of there being more 'race fans' and not just Cup fans.

CART of the 90's got hit with too many retirements in too short a time frame with no 'names' to have a transition period to fill the void. That would have been far less of an issue if the fan base had been more dedicated to the cars, engines and on track show but that wasn't a big enough percentage of the fans to take up the slack. And in today's world the star is what brings in the money that drives the industry and every industry runs on money. My view is that to that point CART relied too heavily on the sponsor guest, people attending on the corporate expense account and B2B sponsors. None of those groups included kids coming to the races and becoming fans. So when the 'names' retired and left, many sponsors didn't want the drivers that took their places and left. That left two voids; the people who were used to coming on somebody else's dime and weren't really 'race fans' so they didn't come and since they had not been bringng their kids the next generation of fans wasn't created to keep coming out.

[KevMcNJ]

Point taken z28.

I dont understand it, but the point is taken

Sad cuz theres lots of good racing going on out there

[frodo13]

It's a little bit morbid but I see all the time in the obituaries, "He or She was a huge Nascar fan,rarely do I see they were a huge racing fan.

[KevMcNJ]

It's a little bit morbid but I see all the time in the obituaries, "He or She was a huge Nascar fan,rarely do I see they were a huge racing fan.

Maybe that explains all the empty seats

[frodo13]

I never considered that the fan base was dieing off!!!

[MoparsRule]

I never considered that the fan base was dieing off!!!

A huge problem for all forms of motorsport in this country. Check out the average age at a spridget show sometime.

[Gateway Fan]

First of all - My post is referring to RIR. Not Chicago, not anywhere else.
It's addressing the claim that the ISC race at RIR was lost because the fans didn't support it.
Not because of sanctioning fees, TV money, or anything else.
I made it clear from the get-go that the figures I mentioned we in no way guaranteed to be accurate and not claimed to be fact.
I was "wondering" that if that lack of fan support was the case, as was often stated - would the same fate befall a NASCAR event that drew less fans than the ICS race.
The mentions of sanctioning fees and TV money came up in this thread.
So far, nobody has provided any real figures.
The figures I found may indeed be off base, but until accurate ones are made public, they're as good as anyone else's numbers.
Clear enough?

That is not my recollection of why the race was pulled. My memory is that SunTrust left as title sponsor and without a replacement RIR would not be able to hold the race and make a profit. Neither RIR nor the IICS were able to attract a new title sponsor, and the race did not return to the schedule. The NNS race seems to have a title sponsor.

[KevMcNJ]

A huge problem for all forms of motorsport in this country. Check out the average age at a spridget show sometime.

Some tracks I go to I see a future. Kids playing with their match box cars in the gravel just like I did 40+ years ago. The day will come when they leave the toys at home and just go to watch. High schoolers hanging out too. Going to the races on Saturday instead of the mall

Other tracks Ive noticed Im one of the youngest people in the stands. sometimes the only kids there are in Nomex