Since people asked for a separate thread for Buddy Lazier.. Here it is..
IMO Buddy is one of the bravest and talented drivers to ever race at Indianapolis. For all the CART/Champ Car fans that love to bash buddy, all I have to say is watch the 2005 Indy 500. He outran almost all the former CART drivers in a one off ride and could have won the race.
Buddy did not have quality equiptment from 2003-2004, 2006-2008. That is a fact.
I know I shouldn't feed this troll of a thread, but Buddy also didn't have quality equipment when he first started out either. And he must not have shown any remarkably promising talent either to impress the major teams, otherwise he would have been picked up. Examples of drivers who showed immense talent in inferior equipment who DID go on to bigger and better teams: Paul Tracy, Scott Pruett, Sam Hornish Jr. (never a fav of mine, but nonetheless one of the best oval driver), Jimmy Vasser and Alex Zanardi. In F1, Fernando Alonso and Seb Vettel come to mind.
Sorry, Buddy was excellent at Indy and on the ovals and if I owned a team at Indy, I would consider him in a car, but he was nothing spectacular. If he was, he would have been snapped up by Penske, Ganassi, Patrick, et al.
I still find it funny how those CART heads think the drivers between 1996 and 1999 did not deserve to win the Indy 500. Everyone who has won the Indy 500 has deserved it. You win the race your deserve it. JMO
2003 IRL Champion
2008 IRL Champion
2008 Indianapolis 500 Champion
24 Wins
70 Top Fives
98 Top Tens
17 Poles
Same deal with those that discount PT's or Bourdais' championships in Champcar.Originally Posted by NZIndyFan
In the end it's a divorce thing, plain and simple. One side's going to say they deserve the goods; the other side's going to do its very best to destroy that argument. Oh well..
"There are 24 hours in a day, and 24 beers in a case. Coincidence?... I think not." - A wise fisherman
Buddy told me he got an offer from a CART team around 1997 or 1998. I think he said N/H. He passed, in no small part because he wanted to remain at Indy.
It was on an oval or two with Newman-Haas, that's well documented, but it wasn't for a full-time ride. I don't think he should have passed on it, but then again I don't know the entire story--except that it was ovals only. I thought it was after 2000?
Kurt, why should he have took the offer?
It was 1997 and he was going to sub for Christian.
At first I had an impression too that the IRL had less quality drivers, perhaps it was based more on media feed/brainwash than my brains. Not anymore. They were as good as in CART if not even better. The only difference is that CART had a bigger amount of $$$. I think that most fans think that drivers with more $$$ are better to some extent. Its not true.
His 96' victory was rightfully deserved. That said he is over rated in my opinion. Why has he not had a full time ride if he is sooooo scary talented?
Same goes for his brother. Talk about bringing a big checkbook.
Chris, because it was a car that had a chance to WIN and that's what it's all about right? Had Buddy raced and won, then all the CART/CC "snobs" would have had to forever shut up. He could have won that too, but we'll never know.
A lot of them were less quality in the 1996 Indy 500. No question. But there were some real good ones too. No question.
If a driver as great as Al Unser can be rideless going into May 1987, about 18 months removed from a national championship, then not getting a ride can happen to anybody.
Lazier is almost certainly done. After Sunday's race, it will be over 3 years since he raced, but his face will always be on the Borg Warner, has an Indycar championship and he has 3 other top 5s in the big race. Quite a career. I'm sure he's quite proud of it.
TSO had an interesting note on what the Lazier family are looking at doing in the ICS.
Buddy is also going to be driving one of the classic cars on race day at IMS on Sunday.
Prime Minister of Gackland
Jaques Lazier couldn't carry Buddy Lazier's helmet bag. They aren't the same. (Not sure how Jaques is overrated though. He has some fans who mention his name now and then for rides, nobody else does. A few people noting that he could probably qualify someone's car for Indy is a strange definition of being overrated, unless there's an axe to grind.)
Sure Buddy may be somewhat overrated by his fans as most driver's fans will do, although not much if at all overrated if talking about his prime years. But he's also badly underrated by some, many of whom probably didn't watch him race very much.
Last edited by Coyote; 05-27-2011 at 12:17 AM.
Got to watch out for those Libertarians - they want to take over the government and leave everyone alone!
It's a shame Zampedri squeezed Davy Jones into the frontstretch wall in '96 and screwed up his car's handling.
Jaques actually looked very, very promising until an accident with Tomas Scheckter broke his back at Nazareth in 2002. He was never the same after that.
Jacques had a very good run with the G-Force at Indy about five years ago. He had it in the top ten on the lead lap most of the day until a bad pit stop and then being forced into the front stretch wall by Kanaan.
No doubt about that. Not having a ride proves nothing.
I thought he was too touted by his fans. He seemed average to me. Although I rooted for him to get rides a few times back then, thought he showed he deserved a chance. He is ok. But he wasn't as good as Buddy. Probably closer to a Scheckter on ovals. Jaques could still make races, maybe would have been a better choice than a couple in the 500 or a few who failed to go fast enough, but so would be a number of other drivers.
Buddy must be some type of witch-doctor or something, I've never seen an athlete with so many fans who make stuff up in his defense.
After he was most thoroughly spanked by Juan Montoya, I've actually heard from at least a dozen people something to the effect "Juan won in the pits, Buddy was faster on track" or "Ganassi had a special fuel hose". Quite funny, as at the final restart they were 1-2, and Juan just drove away into the sunset, building a nice lead and then coasting to the win.
Face it.... when 21 of the top 22 drivers from 1995 weren't in the race, it did get a bit easier.
So when Buddy wins in 1996, its not real.
But when Montoya wins in 2000, it is.
I get it.
Honestly, I think that's an excellent point that I haven't really heard discussed before.
I guess to me the difference is an outsider doing it, and doing in such dominant style. Also, the way the next several years panned out makes it a clear breaking point for me. In other words, if the field is full of schmucks, any schmuck can win. Whearas JPM stepped in and pretty much crushed them all, then moved on to Formula 1.
I don't mean that as harshly as it sounds! Honestly, my biggest gripe is simply the inaccuracy and excuse making most of Lazier's defenders offer. They're aggressively wrong! In my mind (and perhaps in ONLY my mind), Buddy is the poster child for what was wrong with the early IRL.
I like your take tho, that to me makes sense.
It's a shame that Lazier's Indy win is tainted to some due to the split. His gut-wrenching performance with a broken back to win Indy was an incredible story to his bravery and the love of Indy. However had it not been for the split quite likely Lazier would never have gotten an Indy win. And likely too had the split never happened Lazier wouldn't have participated in as many Indycar races as he did. And that's due to him probably never getting a drive in one of the better funded teams of the time, which sadly at the very least is a blemish for the-then owners of CART.
My first Indy 500 was 1973, haven't missed one since 1981. To date I have attended 35 Indy 500's, and probably 100 or so other IndyCar races (CART & IRL).
What did he ever do to have deserved a good ride?
The Ayn Rand of Indycar
No one had to badge the Offy.
He likely wouldn't have fared any worse than guys such as Hiro Matsushita, Parker Johnstone, Maurício Gugelmin or Mark Blundell yet they got rides (although I also realize that Hiro's ride was bought & paid for by himself and was never due to any success or talent on his part).
Buddy's rides were mostly bought and paid for by his dad. He did not get them due to any sucess on his part either. So I ask again, what did he ever do to have deserved a good ride?
And again I ask, what did Matsushita, Johnstone, Gugelmin, Blundell do to deserve rides? If they could get rides why not Lazier??
We're not talking about the other guys, we're talking about Lazier. What did he ever do to get a good ride? We can discuss the accomplishments of the other drivers in another thread if you'd like.
That is totally not true, the last restart had Vasser leading and Montoya behind him, Buddy restarted in 4th-5th position with some lap cars in between.
I'll give a short answer seeing that you won't tell me what Lazier ever did in his career to have earned a good ride in CART.
Gugelmin and Blundell won enough races and championships in the junior ranks to make it to F1. Blundell was also considered one of the best sports car racers in the world. Johnstone was thought highly enough by Honda due his accomplishments to date that was chosen to drive for the Acura team and won 3 straight IMSA Camel Lites titles, including two class wins in the 24 Hours of Daytona, a win at the 12 Hours Of Sebring, and the Suzuka 1000k. Hiro was a horrible Indycar driver, but at least he won the Pacifc division of the Atlantics series in '89.
Ok, so what did Buddy Lazier ever do to have earned a good ride in CART?
Last edited by DaveL; 05-31-2011 at 06:50 PM.
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