Jet Fighter Style Canopies For OW Cars

[Mike Kellner]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/14199629

Something I have always thought would be a good idea. I must have argued for them in half a dozen threads going back to 7th Gear.

It looks like F1 has been looking into them after Massa's crash. I still think they are a good idea. I understand the danger of a driver getting trapped in an overturned burning car, but that is less likely than getting hit with flying debris or hitting his head on a post or a car that drives over another. My feeling is they would be a net safety improvement.

At Indy they could be good for a 5 MPH lap speed increase due to lower drag, maybe more. I wonder of they'd need to be cleaned during a race? Could they develop super Rain-X that squashed bugs wouldn't adhere to?

And they would make OW cars looks really cool. More jet fighter like than ever.

I wonder if air conditioning would be required?

mk

[Tifositoo]

I couldn't get the link to work, but I have reservations about canopies for OW cars.

The biggest problem I see is what you mentioned...ventilation. Canopies have been tried on OW cars before, most notably the Sumar streamliner and the Belond Exhaust car at Indy in 1955. Neither ran with a canopy because the driver practically roasted from the heat. There would have to be some way to duct the airflow over and around the canopy to keep it clean as well as through it for it to work, and that might negate any speed advantage.

Also, Massa's incident, IIRC, was the result of a piece that weighed several pounds falling off another car, bouncing off the track surface, and hitting him with a glancing blow. Would a canopy have deflected the piece, or would it have simply shattered and caused more problems? Until somebody comes up with a way to manufacture transparent Kevlar, I don't see how this could be of much help.


Not an engineer or aerodynamicist...


Dan

[Jag-lover]

Mike,

Canopies would look pretty cool IMHO. You could probably have some tear-offs mounted on the front like some cars have as well some motorcycle helmets. A/C would be nice or some sort of cool suit similar to what the LeMans prototypes use. I would think using the same sorts of solutions the prototypes use for rain and windshield fogging could be applied to an Indycar canopy if adopted.

[JMFVET]

Interesting but I don't ever see it happening due to the cockpit cooling issue.
The concern with a trapped driver in an overturned car is valid, but I would rather be trapped in a sealed cockpit getting warm due nearby flames than in an open cockpit with flames on me. Plus, the cars are so light that the springs that engage and disengage the canopy could probably "self-right" the safety cell (see "Robot wars" on functional analog).

[Mike Kellner]

Sorry the link didn't work for you. It works for me, so there is no way I can think of to fix it.

The article says they tested both a heavy duty wind screen and a F16 canopy by firing a F1 wheel & tire assembly at them at 140 MPH. The windscreen deflected the tire but was damaged significantly where the canopy deflected the tire and was undamaged. The front of canopy would have a steep rake angle to it which means most debris would strike it at a shallow angle which would reduce the chances of it penetrating. I believe if they specified the right material and thickness it would be strong enough to protect the driver. I suppose if it got damaged it could be changed in a race. They change front wings. A quick change mount could be devised. You would want to remove the canopy in the garage anyway to get it out of the way for access to the cockpit.

Maybe AC would be the ticket. F1 cars have power steering these days. It would only take 5 HP and if everyone had one it would equal out. I bet there'd still be a net reduction in lap times on any but street courses. The canopy would clean up the top of the car reducing drag and perhaps make for cleaner air hitting the rear wing. Back in the 50s automotive AC was still a novelty and the parts were huge and heavy. Modern tech might make it possible. I don't know what size the best available technology compressor would be.

When I flew light aircraft back in the 70s they had no windshield wipers. Wipers would have damaged the plexiglass windscreens which were soft. Instead they used some kind of gunk you applied with a cloth to make water bead up readily and blow off. it worked better than I expected. I am sure today's RainX is better still.

I had thought about fire trapping a driver, but a canopy might actually protect them as JMFVET proposed. In the two fires we have had lately, a canopy might have saved Simona from burned hands both times. Both fires were outside the cockpit.

I know it would be a lot safer to drive through a debris field at 220 MPH protected by a stout polycarbon canopy rather than a helmet and its 1/4 inch plastic visor as your only protection. There are also flying tires and cars getting on top of other cars to think about.

mk

[Sea Fury]

Interesting but I don't ever see it happening due to the cockpit cooling issue.
The concern with a trapped driver in an overturned car is valid, but I would rather be trapped in a sealed cockpit getting warm due nearby flames than in an open cockpit with flames on me. Plus, the cars are so light that the springs that engage and disengage the canopy could probably "self-right" the safety cell (see "Robot wars" on functional analog).

I'd be more worried about a fire in the cockpit WITH ME under a stuck sealed canopy. Smoke getting trapped in the cockpit at speed. Fuel fumes from a leak. That sort of thing. In Simona's TMS fire the cockpit would have been filled with smoke, intense heat, or both.

I've wondered about canopies, too, but the more I thought about it I realized that they'd cause more problems than they'd solve.

[doitagain]

Link works for me.

[CamKing]

Drag boats have had fighter jet canopies for years. I would think they could figure it out.
If they could make the cars safer, I'd like to see them try it. It would definitly give the Indy Cars a new look, and get people talking.
It may be just what IndyCar needs.

[Jim Wilke]

One more step towards making the driver invisible. May as well have one of these:

[Tifositoo]

One more step towards making the driver invisible. May as well have one of these:

Yep...



Dan

[CamKing]

One more step towards making the driver invisible.

Full face helmets took care of that 30 years ago.
I don't care how good your eye sight is. at 225mph, you can't see the drivers when they go by.
You can see them on TV, but even with a canopy, you can still have an in-car camara on the driver.

An openwheel Indycar that looked about the same as current cars, but with a jetfighter cockpit, may be the thing that gets people to notice IndyCars again.

[CamKing]

It would be nice to see some of the artist's here, draw something up.
I'm thinking something about this size for a canopy.

[Mike Kellner]

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/cro...n-1_460x0w.jpg

You can't really see the drivers right now. Just the top of a painted plastic ball. You can't see the drivers in NASCAR either and it hasn't hurt their business much.

I am convinced it will be safer and I think it will look great.

I also believe it will happen eventually. It will just have to wait until a top driver gets hurt by flying debris. Massa was only going 150 when he caught that spring, and he lucked out that it wasn't 3 inches closer to the center of the helmet.

mk

[Jag-lover]

It would be nice to see some of the artist's here, draw something up.
I'm thinking something about this size for a canopy.

CamKing,

That would be real close to what I think it would look like. If I were designing it, I would integrate the head restraint pads into the canopy so it would be easier for the driver or emergency crews to get the driver out of the car. You could have a small wiper system similar to the LMP cars noted above for rain. The only other consideration would be for a/c or other type of driver cooling system. It would make for a pretty swoopy design though based on what the 2012 Indycars will look like.

[Niseguy]

Lets just put slots in the track and we can have life size slot car racing.

[CamKing]

I am convinced it will be safer

I'm not, but I think it should be looked into.
If it to be safer, I think the look would atract more fans then anything else Indy car has done. The cars have looked about the same for 30 years, and this one change would make them look completely different, without changing the driving/handling of the car.

[sightlines]

Safer, not the right phrase, but at what cost?

-Would need a cooling system- Weight, R&D and $$
-Would probably need a fire suppressant system in the cockpit - Weight and $$
-Would need a quick change mechanism- $$
-Training/testing for extrication.
-How would it work if the engine was in the front?

[Jag-lover]

Safer, not the right phrase, but at what cost?

-Would need a cooling system- Weight, R&D and $$
-Would probably need a fire suppressant system in the cockpit - Weight and $$
-Would need a quick change mechanism- $$
-Training/testing for extrication.
-How would it work if the engine was in the front?

1. They should be able to adapt cooling systems from existing prototype cars.

2. The cars already have on-board fire extinguishing systems to the best of my knowledge

3. My guess is that you could adapt a quick release mechanism similar to what the drag boats use.

4. I would think training for extraction should not be all that more involved.

5. If the engine is in the front, you're in trouble because that means you're going backwards.

[Mike Kellner]

What Jag-lover said.

Plus I think a Watson Roadster would look way cool with a canopy that went back to a streamlined headrest, offset to one side.

mk