NextGen Catch Fence...ok my version...

[skcoop80]

Let me warn you, i am no engineer, just a warehouse manager. I threw these together before I left today. It could be start.

Photo 1 shows a view of the catch fence from the top, looking straight down. Notice the main posts are set away from the wall, maybe 6 feet or so. Attached to the posts are 4-7 beams that are curved to reduce the angle of impact. They are attached to the main posts by an extremely powerful spring hinge type thing. On the end of the beams, we will call them absorption beams, is the steel netting, pretty much just like what we have now. Its not what does the damage.

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/a...0/nextgen3.jpg

Photo 2 shows the fence from the side. You can see how the absorption beams are spaced. This will allow them to "wrap" around the car that is penetrating the netting. The idea here is to have the absorption beams pushing the car away from the main posts and back on to the track.

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/a...0/nextgen1.jpg

Photo 3 shows another top view with the fence in action. We will look at Conway's accident at indy. He went airborne and directly hit a main post which ripped the car in half, and broke his back. With this new fence, he would first have made contact with the netting and as he continued
to penetrate the absorption beams would be "springing" and rotating against his car keeping it away from the main posts. The idea here is that he would just "slide" against the netting and return to the track with considerably less damage and certainly not an have an impact that would break his back.

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/a...0/nextgen2.jpg

Tracks could use the steel netting they already have and just move the fence posts back away from the wall a few feet. Most tracks have plenty of room between the wall the the grandstands, especially on the newer cookie cutter tracks.

RIP Dan

[MichaelP]

Don't know how feasible it is, but it IS the sort of out-of-the box thinking that we need.

[pburnett]

you know, that might not be a half bad idea... Needs refining, but I see the philosophy of what you are going for. Two things I see (as an engineer): 1) Size of absorbtion beams required to hold back a car, 2) what if you hit an absorbtion beam instead of a pole, yes it would be less as bad as hitting a fixed beam, but a head to that is going to do some damage as well, 3) I am still skeptical of steel netting as it can still grab cars, and 4) the size of those beams could seriously impact sightlines at the track.

Like I said, though, I like it, and creativity like this can seriously help set good things in motion.

[jcmark611]

The problem with any redesign of the catch fence is that it's hugely expensive. Unless NASCAR mandated it, the tracks aren't going to spend that kind of money so IndyCar can race there.

Right now, this is a problem that is unique to IndyCar, and it's going to be up to IndyCar to solve it.

[Dez1013]

The problem with any redesign of the catch fence is that it's hugely expensive. Unless NASCAR mandated it, the tracks aren't going to spend that kind of money so IndyCar can race there.

Right now, this is a problem that is unique to IndyCar, and it's going to be up to IndyCar to solve it.

Not necessarily, think of Russell Phillips and others. Nascars hit the fence too.

[STAND E]

This is a great idea. Let's see if someone can price out what it would cost. Do we have any experts to take this and create an estimate?

I have a two-part suggestion for an improvement, and in fact I was going to propose it on my own. But I think it is compatible with this design and might be an improvement.

1. Anchor the bottom of the steel netting to the top of the safer barrier wall. The netting starts right at the safer barrier. This way cars will never be flying "over" the safer barrier in any way. That additional "corner" of the top edge of the safer barrier is thus eliminated.

2. Make the top absorption beams longer than the bottom ones, so that the overall netting is then angled towards the track. This keeps the cars from gaining altitude and sends them back down to the track quicker. This is analogous to how catch fences are today, with an overhang at the very top. I think the angle would be about ten degrees over the whole height of the netting. No matter where the cars hit, they will be forced back down. That will create slightly more G-forces, but also less altitude. In my view it is safer to not gain any altitude (I am a witness to Mario's flip at Indy).

I would also consider making the steel netting openings smaller, perhaps with graduated webbing, so that the largest opening is an inch or two. That way no noses or smaller objects can penetrate the netting. Strong plastics are also feasible for consideration along these lines.

I've had several safety suggestions over the years. I'm an engineer, but not a racing engineer. I am going to gather up all my safety-related posts and place them on the Tech forum. I have searched the archives and I have had ten threads on the topic, one of which has been used by INDYCAR. I will make any effort that I can as a fan to try to help out with safety.

[jcmark611]

Not necessarily, think of Russell Phillips and others. Nascars hit the fence too.

And they made changes to the car after his accident.

They do hit the fence, but they are at a much lower risk.

[skcoop80]

I had thought about attaching the bottom of the netting to the wall, which would keep the cars from "riding the wall". Also having the top absorption beams longer is a fine idea to keep the cars lower and prevent them from rolling up the fence.

[STAND E]

I had thought about attaching the bottom of the netting to the wall, which would keep the cars from "riding the wall". Also having the top absorption beams longer is a fine idea to keep the cars lower and prevent them from rolling up the fence.

Awesome. Let's hope this "Trackforum Safety Fence" idea gets some review.

[skcoop80]

Here is a direct link to the entire album, i just noticed my pics are not rotated in the links above.

http://s953.photobucket.com/albums/ae18/skcoop80/

[sightlines]

4) the size of those beams could seriously impact sightlines at the track.

.

No, I'd be OK with it.

[prell5713]

Take out the posts and hang the fence from the top and bottom like a curtain that is connected along the bottom

[Sweaty Teddy]

Interesting idea. I tell you what, it probably wasn't meant to do so but the frowny face on "Mike Conway" made me smile.

[tehlrov]

Take out the posts and hang the fence from the top and bottom like a curtain that is connected along the bottom

And what happens when you hit fast enough that the fence breaks?

[AlaskaIndy]

I can't remember the title specifically but there was a Star Trek movie that the premise was the crew had to travel back in time to what was then present day San Francisco to gather up humpback whales to take back to the future. In that movie they had to build a tank inside the enterprise to transport the whales. Scotty used "transparent aluminum" to build the tank. That's the kind of strength we would need to build a next gen catch-fence that would offer the required visibility.

[Bob_Marley]

The problem with the Catch Fence, its like a damn cheese grater on a nuclear level. The Catch Fence idea in this thread is a good start. But we need to be really innovative on this. Maybe its a multi-layer system using clear polymers on the front that allow the car to slide better along the fence. The poles are also an issue that needs to be added in the mix, maybe a multi-foot safer barrier between the poles and the fencing could be implemented.

[pburnett]

No, I'd be OK with it.

Took me a second, but well played good sir....

[JMFVET]

This is a good initial concept IMHO.

It uses existing material and technology in a better way.

It will be expensive but not as much as really thick Lexan or Kevlar netting. I think I read that a clear aluminum alloy was really invented in the last few years but price ,and purpose, is astronomical, literally.

[Turn13]

the size of those beams could seriously impact sightlines at the track.

On the other hand, we aren't using the first 20 rows as it is...

[piercey]

On the other hand, we aren't using the first 20 rows as it is...

[ownercap]

If I have a facility that sells out for other events (Kentucky), or even yours (Iowa) then why should I give up revenue for an expense?

[/ownercap]

Oddly enough, Indy would be the one that would be a major headache in retrofitting for a new catch fence, but they'd do it in a heartbeat. Now, if you could find a way to build these supports so that I can put stands over them, or put these supports under existing stands, then we have a discussion.

[WheelerDealer]

The problem with the Catch Fence, its like a damn cheese grater on a nuclear level. The Catch Fence idea in this thread is a good start. But we need to be really innovative on this. Maybe its a multi-layer system using clear polymers on the front that allow the car to slide better along the fence. The poles are also an issue that needs to be added in the mix, maybe a multi-foot safer barrier between the poles and the fencing could be implemented.

I think the issue is "give". There has to be give to the posts. The fence is a cheese grater, but I think the most damage continues to be the posts. The concept in the safer barrier is the give in the 'beams' supporting the wall itself. Not an engineer, but it seems that dispersion of energy both along the wall (steel tubes) and the styrofoam beams supporting the barrier release enough energy to reduce impact force. I tend to think the solution is not a monumental cost. Expensive, but you need to strand the fencing to give bounce as well as bounce in the oncoming forces.

[skcoop80]

When i think about sight lines, i think about sitting at the start/finish line at indy in the front row boxes. With the current fence, you can really only see a couple hundred yards down the track anyway before the posts and netting appear to become "solid" if you will. I cant say how this design would play out, but I know that if you sit just above the fence level it wont be a problem, and if you are used to sitting behind the fence anyway, then this is what you are used to. At cookie cutters, the fence doesnt really play a factor as the bottom row of grandstands is usually pretty high. At least at Ky and Chitown they are.

[Djski442]

I seen the accident a couple time, but I really couldn't focus too much on it because I'm just weak when it comes to things like that and i really dont want to watch it again. I actually erased it from my dvr because i dont want it on there. My question is did the top of his car hit the catch fence or did his car land and hit the space in between the safer barrier and the permanent wall. I think if a car lands in-between those two walls it could be just as bad as hitting the catch fence. Would it be better if somehow the catch fence was flush with the safer barrier instead of the permanent retaining wall?

[uncommonsense52]

Interesting idea. I tell you what, it probably wasn't meant to do so but the frowny face on "Mike Conway" made me smile.

I got a kick out of it too.

[Bob_Marley]

I think the issue is "give". There has to be give to the posts. The fence is a cheese grater, but I think the most damage continues to be the posts. The concept in the safer barrier is the give in the 'beams' supporting the wall itself. Not an engineer, but it seems that dispersion of energy both along the wall (steel tubes) and the styrofoam beams supporting the barrier release enough energy to reduce impact force. I tend to think the solution is not a monumental cost. Expensive, but you need to strand the fencing to give bounce as well as bounce in the oncoming forces.

Yes, I agree to an extent. The wall does less damage to the driver than the catch fence. Look at Brack, Conway and Hamilton. Then go watch Vitor smack the wall at Indy and be better shape than the three I mentioned before. If we could make a clear wall all the way up, we would be in business. The current catch fence needs some sort of inner barrier to keep the cars from litterally catching and get them bouncing.

[MS]

I can't remember the title specifically but there was a Star Trek movie that the premise was the crew had to travel back in time to what was then present day San Francisco to gather up humpback whales to take back to the future. In that movie they had to build a tank inside the enterprise to transport the whales. Scotty used "transparent aluminum" to build the tank. That's the kind of strength we would need to build a next gen catch-fence that would offer the required visibility.

I was thinking something along these lines. I wish there'd be some type of super-strong plexi-glass that would allow visibility yet keep the cars and debris safely out of the stands.

[TJ Halsema]

Here is my catch fence (wall) idea. Sorry to piggy back.

Idea, high strength polykevlar glass boards (these don't break they produce a halo effect). With support straps that will keep it from falling onto the track, yet keep it vertical and away from the poles as well. The glass' color is so we can see it. Btw they do make this material, it is just very expensive to manufacture. Hence the fence does not go all the way to the top. If it were, I'd recommend a curved structure.

[Bob_Marley]

Here is my catch fence (wall) idea. Sorry to piggy back.

Idea, high strength polykevlar glass boards (these don't break they produce a halo effect). With support straps that will keep it from falling onto the track, yet keep it vertical and away from the poles as well. The glass' color is so we can see it. Btw they do make this material, it is just very expensive to manufacture. Hence the fence does not go all the way to the top. If it were, I'd recommend a curved structure.

That is what I was thinking too. You have to have it go all the way up and not have any catch available. The cars would likely slide up too, you have to have something that would force the car back down.

[prell5713]

Just place the lexan in the turns. That way you have 95% of the fence problem fixed at 1/3 the cost. As I said in an earlier post. Take out the posts. and move them back. Reduce the number of them. Make them larger. If you hang the cable and hardware cloth curtain from the large so called curtain rod.
You can add sufficient cable. The curtain can be made to be impenetrable. furthermore you could make the hanger spring and rebound. Therefore slowing the decelerating forces. Once you eliminate the hard contact. Concentrate on different fence material. Something with a more linear horizontal design, Large linear horizontal strand. smaller vertical strand. cables which are intertwined or welded permanently to the contact side of the device. Run the cables up and continuously through the supporting tubing. any other suggestions are welcome

[patryk]

Interesting article here: http://www.fiainstitute.com/media-ce...eature-11.aspx

I have seen many of these presentations at ne conference or another and they are pretty scientific. Often tested using a crane and a great big weight to emulate the size and speed of impact.

It asks a lot of a fence: transparent, strong, flexible, absorb impact, etc etc.