Vacating wins always bothers me, as it is purely revisionist history. There's much more of a taint with a big fat asterisk.Originally Posted by Kurt Cobain
Vacating wins always bothers me, as it is purely revisionist history. There's much more of a taint with a big fat asterisk.
Arbitrary? Really?
The whole deal about covering up a former assistant coach who liked to **** little boys in the *** didn't mean anything to you?
Center Grove Trojans
2008 5A Football State Champs
2011 Track State Champs
Then answer this: If there was no advantage...why cover it up at all?
Well, I had to witness a decade of the embarrassment of IU basketball. No, they didn't reach the depths of Penn State's embarrassment but likewise, Penn State's football team will not be stripped anywhere near the way IU's basketball team was stripped (interesting to ponder...). I had to endure many jokes about how bad IU's basketball team became. If you don't lighten up about jokes such as the one I told then you are going to drive yourself crazy.
Criminal acts, punishable under Pennsylvania's penal code. I just sort of figured that state attorneys can handle this. But, I guess the NCAA has a parallel law enforcement role here. If they identify a criminal act at a school and determine that it might reflect badly on the NCAA, they can hit the school with huge fines for individuals' CRIMINAL ACTS. Thank goodness that the NCAA hasn't come in to audit the expense reports of the Humanities Department.
Yes, in my misguided, muddled mind, I see the NCAA only enforcing NCAA athletic rules. For them to take on punishing criminal acts, I call that arbitrary.
Thank goodness that we have the NCAA to punish America's sexual preditors. I'm resting better.
You sound like the Clinton defenders who claimed that it was about his sex life.
It wasn't and it isn't.
The NCAA didn't punish the pervert. They punished the football team that covered up the fact. That coverup led to even more children being raped. I would be ashamed of the NCAA if they did nothing.
With all that has happened I really don't understand those who focus their anger on the NCAA.
:shakeshead:
Oh, I very likely will lighten up, but today is not the day. The vitriol and hatred I have seen heaped on Penn State as a university is hard to fathom. Some evil men conspired to hide the acts of an even more evil man and an entire university is being tarred by this matter. Clever little jibes like "Pedophile State"... calling for them to shut down the whole university. The largest dues-paying alumni association in the US. That says something about our pride in all aspects of life at Penn State, not just the celebration of athletic achievement.
Just to play devil's advocate; did Jerry Sandusky make the team better by his presence as a coach? If not, why was he there to begin with? If so, how do you determine how many games they would or would not have one had the school not covered up for him? At the very minimum every game that he was on the sideline was a sham.
I saw this on the PSU Scout Audibles page from a guy called IndyNittany and this shines new light on how Freeh totally did not want to answer this question. This is in response to Dr. Spanier's letter to the PSU BOT he sent last night. Here is the link to that page: http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=157&f=1395&t=9168046&p=1
The emails are consistent with that letter. That leaves one of two possibilities:
1) Tim and Gary lied to Graham regarding the seriousness of the incident in question.
Or,
2) Tim and Gary were telling the truth in their GJ testimony.
Based on their actions and the flavor of the emails, I believe 2 is the correct possibility. Why would both Tim Curley and Gary Schultz intentionally mislead their boss about the seriousness of this situation?
I think it is very important to note that Spanier says of the 2/25 meeting that Tim was worried about how he should handle things if he informed Sandusky about not bringing 2nd Mile kids around the facilities and Sandusky disagree with that directive (the very bottom of page 6 and into page 7).
This supports my argument that Tim's email, in which he says, "After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe, I am uncomfortable...." suggests that Tim was having misgivings about the original, 3 step plan before his follow up conversation with Joe. The single significant event that occurred during the time between they talked with Joe initially and formulated their original plan and the meeting on 2/25 was the meeting McQueary had with Curley and Schultz.
So, it wasn't Tim's conversation with Joe that changed his mind. It was the meeting with McQueary, of which both Tim and Gary testified under oath that McQueary did not tell them of anything sexual occurring.
The Freeh report omits this meeting from both the thirteen page Timeline of Significant Events and the highlighted and bulleted Key Findings section at the beginning of Chapter 4. I can't think of anything that qualifies more than that meeting as a significant event and a key finding, but it was treated as though it never occurred by Freeh.
I think we are all smart enough to know that the flapping gums and talking heads are going to use these sections as the equivalent of cliff notes and pretend that they read the actual body of the report when they did not. Therefore, I am left to assume that both Freeh and the BOT know that too.
Thus, I am accusing Freeh and the BOT of intentionally leaving out the event most likely to have led to a change in the approach adopted so they would have no choice but to conclude it was the conversation with Joe instead.
RIP Dan Wheldon :(
"Anybody who says the IndyCar Series is not the best championship in the world is a complete idiot in my book." ~Dan Wheldon
No question.
No offense, but who cares about your alma mater in light of your previous statement. Penn State is going to be there next week, next month, next year, next decade and a century from now, regardless of anything else. It's really unfortunate that anybody gives a crap about the reputation of Penn State in this moment.and one that is having a very serious effect on my alma mater and will for probably the next decade.
True, they put athletics in front of education at many institutions. Is that really the equivalent of putting athletics in front of what in your words, "effected some young men for the rest of their lives"?I call BS Mr. Emmert. It is put ahead of educating young people every day at places like UT, Florida, LSU, OU, OSU, Alabama, USC, etc... The programs at those schools are cash cows and are front and center in the eyes of the students, alumni, and fans. The NCAA knows where it's bread is buttered. President Emmert can make his grandiose statements, but nothing has changed in big-time college athletics from yesterday until today except at Penn State.
No, not these young men, but $60 million could go a long way towards the next some future group of young men. Because of this penalty, the possibly dozens of young men harmed by Sandusky could result in hundreds of young children being protected in the future.Oh, and the true victims in this case aren't one bit better off with these penalties.
No offense, but you have to be seriously naive to believe that this stuff was going on in the Penn State facilities and nobody at the top knew about it. Sandusky was so careful that he was spotted molesting kids out in the open by both a janitor and an assistant coach. Those are only 2 incidents. How many do we not know about?
The Colts won the Super Bowl a few years back. The guy that probably should've won MVP was Dominic Rhodes. A year later he was arrested for DUI and pissed himself in the back seat of the police car. The Colts cut him. Should they have thrown their hands up and said, 'Welp, this is a criminal matter, we have no business here.'?
Or are you just a rival BIG fan with an axe to grind and pile on with the mob mentality? All of this has been a quick rush to judgement without any regard for due process, legal or otherwise. The NCAA has set a very bad precedent with its actions today, bypassing its own rules about violations. Of course it has always been a banana republic organization (the staffers that is).
Not really. I was never a PSU fan, but I was a BIG fan of Paterno. I just couldn't help but admire what he was doing at his age. I personally found it to be incredibly inspiring and hoped that I could live out my twilight in a manner where I was still achieving big things, too. I do not wish to be a Wal-Mart greater in my later days, God bless them. There's nothing wrong with that, either.
That's your opinion. Mine is otherwise. This is not the court of law. Jerry Sandusky has already been convicted of the most heinous of crimes. Those crimes occurred in PSU facilities. They were witnessed by multiple people. They were reported by some. It was evident enough that at some point the police investigated, though there was not enough evidence to proceed, probably because of the fear created by the cult-like mentality created by Paterno. To believe there is not enough evidence to convict in a court of law is one thing. To ignore common sense and believe these people didn't know what was going on is just naive, imho.All of this has been a quick rush to judgement without any regard for due process, legal or otherwise. The NCAA has set a very bad precedent with its actions today, bypassing its own rules about violations. Of course it has always been a banana republic organization (the staffers that is).
Do you actually believe that anyone is concerned about being rivals of PSU these days? That being a fan of another Big Ten team plays any role in this? Most of the country is so far beyond that kind of thinking it is a silly notion.
Edit to add - Like Gomer I was a huge Joe Pa fan and my only trip to Happy Valley was a great experience. Of all the schools that this could happen at PSU bothers me more than most because I had no ill feelings to them.
One man screwed up while captaining a tanker and all of Exxon suffered, all of the stockholders and employees. Same thing happened to BP, lots of innocent folks lost their savings and their jobs. Jack In The Box sent out some bad beef, killed some customers, bankrupting some innocent franchise holders. Life is unfair sometimes.
I can't answer about the cover up at all, but why take away wins when none of those players had anything to do with it? (the sexual abuse). To me it doesn't make sense.
Always wondered what the outcome would have been if the assistant coach had told Papa Joe that " I saw Jerry molesting your grandson in the shower here in the athletic building a few minutes ago".
Somehow I think the outcome might have been different.
If the people in charge, including Paterno, who was God at that college, had done the right thing, they would have suffered some harm and embarassment in the media, and possibly lose some recruits, at least in the short term. But they would have been able to look themselves in the mirror and knew they did right, and they would have protected lots of children harmed down the road. This entire situation would have been long forgotten.
It is a lesson for all of us. Sometimes the easy way out is really not that easy in the long run. And sometimes what we really think is really important in our lives is not that important.
I see your point and it's a valid one, but again I contend it was the players that played, not Sandusky. Sure he called the plays as a defensive coordinator, but it's up to those players to execute. I'm against the taking away of the wins, only. Everything else I agree with.
Bob Knight was on Mike & Mike this morning and I think he was spot-on in his analysis of the situation.
Audio here:
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8194268
Bob doesn't have the best track record when it comes to discussing rape and how to respond to the attempt.
"Ride The Barrel & Get Pitted... So Pitted."
I wonder if the players have considered suing the NCAA as individuals not associated with the university to have those wins reinstituted. The university waived its right to contest the NCAA penalties, but the players from those years didn't, as far as I know.
Uncle Si for Pace Car Driver - 2013!!
In reading over all the reactions to the penalties you can almost pigeonhole a person by what they have a "problem" with......the students have a problem with that huge $60M, though most realize it's chicken feed to PSU, as they're struggling to pay tuition........folks like myself who really don't watch football at all understand it all except the part pertaining to the entire D1 sports program being put put on watch, it should not be an issue but they are all under the microscope.......former players have two, the vacating of victories and loss of 20 scholarships for today's players though they understand the $60M.......those who seem very connected to PSU football are very irate at all of it as this if they were being punished themselves and have to bear the brunt.........sitting back and watching it all, not really caring about football to me it just shows how one person, then two, then three then more can lose their humanity and not do the right thing simply because they would be steamrolled out of the limelight, or lost their seat on the gravy train.
The "what if" of 1998 or 1999 or 2000 will be speculated on but can never fully be answered....the penalties are not fair to all, not enough for all, I've seen them described as "modest" by some and "overbearing" by others.....but in the end football is just a game and so many lost sight of that when it was allowed to take a higher position in life than protecting the victims of a person who should not have been around kids, who should have been turned in, but instead destroyed even more lives for no good reason. Now that program which protected him is left to suffer and those would claim there is now suffering by today's players, students, parents.......their suffering today is nothing like the victims or their parents. They are there for an education, they are playing a game. It's time to look past a game and with the penalties perhaps PSU and other institutions will think twice before not doing what is right as a human being, if not there is no point to the game.
Katharine's Legge is in the gravel!--Jenks
__________________________________________________ ____________________
12-7-1941 Never, Never Forget 9-11-2001
Too bad he was completely wrong. This was about football and to deny it is ignoring reality.
Yeah, that's what I meant about mine being relatively tame. It will be interesting to see how PSU weathers this storm. You will find some of your fellow fans/alumni to be fair-weather fans but I suspect you will find a new reason to be proud of your alma mater as you see the fans continued support, some (many?) of the players will remain at the school -- these kids should be treated like royalty for the sacrifice they make -- and, the coach who has already said he will stay. The next few years will be different but, as my Hoosiers have done, they will likely emerge even stronger.
I heard a talking head yesterday suggest that there will only be about 50,000 fans in Happy Valley for home games this fall. I would be greatly disappointed if that's the case.
It will be interesting how ESPN and the Big10 Network handle this. Will there be collusion not to choose to televise their games??
I could see that happening with the home games. Although, on the flip side, the media always wants to "cover the situation" at ground zero for us and it's business as usual for TV?
They have an away game at Virginia which is an attractive non-conference matchup which probably one of the better games that weekend. Might be a away to give us an update on the team without showing them at home.
They have Ohio St and Wisconsin at home. Guaranteed television any other year.
A. They didn't bypass their own rules.
B. Penn State signed off in agreement
I can't argue that it makes sense. It is revisionist history at its best. Not sure what it accomplishes other than removing Joe's crown.
I bet their first home game will be very heavily covered.
State Farm has dropped its sponsorship of PSU's football program.
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