Product / Promotion

[gonzo]

Jeffy and Jimmy don't really have good personalities, though. And a lot of NASCAR fans thought Jeff was gay Not that I think there's anything wrong with that, but they sure did

People will admire drivers that compete well in the sport they follow, even if they have the personalities of a brick. Or a priock

People used to admire IndyCar drivers because what they did was so dangerous, and because they did it so fast. You can still encounter some NASCAR marketing that sort of touches on the speed thing, but I think they know that only goes so far, because they don't.

Thumbs up on everything said.

Hi Mo!

[PenelopePitstop]

You don't get it! NASCAR was born on the beaches running cars that drove on regular streets! Indy Car was born on Super speedways in purpose built cars in a quest to go ever faster!

Today NASCAR is racing on those superspeedways and Indycar is racing on those regular streets.

How the heck are you supposed to promote that?

[lkchris]

Speed has always been at the core and a significant characteristic of what an Indy Car is the same way "stock equipment" has always been at the core and a significant characteristic of what NASCAR is.

Is speed part of each sport? Of course it is. But reducing speeds in NASCAR does not have the same affect as reducing speeds in Indy Car because the character traits of each rely on completely different attributes.

It's pretty easy to doubt that the majority of fans think speed in indycar is as important as you do. Your writing it as a given doesn't make it so.

And, check back when Al Unser won his national championships. Pretty much Indy was the only big track they raced on and for sure some of the "indycar" races were on dirt.

No, I think the only "essence" of indycar racing you can successfully reference is American drivers. Big Al wasn't racing Brazilians on American dirt back in the day when the "essence" was established. Sure, you can say that isn't how indycar is today but in saying that you've described the problem.

[doitagain]

Sounds like time for a poll

[gonzo]

It's pretty easy to doubt that the majority of fans think speed in indycar is as important as you do. Your writing it as a given doesn't make it so.

And, check back when Al Unser won his national championships. Pretty much Indy was the only big track they raced on and for sure some of the "indycar" races were on dirt.

No, I think the only "essence" of indycar racing you can successfully reference is American drivers. Big Al wasn't racing Brazilians on American dirt back in the day when the "essence" was established. Sure, you can say that isn't how indycar is today but in saying that you've described the problem.

You just don't get it or I'm not explaining it well enough.

I say speed matters and you think I'm talking about standing there with a radar gun. I'm not.

It's all intangibles. Its visceral experiences. Its the surreal.

Poll any fan and you likely wouldn't get speed as the reason to watch. Get the cars doing 300 mph and the stands would be packed and the atmosphere electric. Dial them back to 200 mph and nobody would want to watch or care.

Speed matters. Are you going to suggest it doesn't matter ilkris? I'm talking INdy Car here, no other series, just Indy Car, does speed matter in Indy Car or does it not matter? Cause you are sitting here trying to convince me that it doesn't matter.

[gonzo]

Sounds like time for a poll

Depends how the poll is worded....

For example if you asked a question like what is more important, how fast the cars go, what the cars look like or what the cars sound like, I don't know that speed would win out in that poll.

But ask a question like, what excites you more, watching an Indy Car at full song, or watching an Indy Car on a cool down lap is going to give you a very different picture and better illustrate the point I am trying to make.

Speed excites. ilkchris seems to disagree, but that isn't surprising cause ilkchris makes it a point to disagree with the muppet. So be it, I've come to learn that speed just doesn't matter to ilkchris.

[lkchris]

So be it, I've come to learn that speed just doesn't matter to ilkchris.

I'm thinking it doesn't matter to the majority. Samples of one such as myself (or you) are obviously meaningless. This is about product/promotion, i.e. racing business.

Most people react to the noise more than anything and noisy means fast. I've seen both NASCAR and Indycar at Texas Motor Speedway and think most are like me in thinking we don't much see the speed difference. We can read about it of course, that's that's just techno-nerd stuff.

Here's what I think's most important to the average fan. At last summer's snoozefest indycar race at TMS, about the only thing I could continuously see was the electric-green go-daddy car. The rest was just a couple clumps of indistinguishable cars and nobody ever passed for the lead. Simona and Davey going by every few seconds nose-to-tail wasn't real exciting although it's nice Davey was back.

No, I think the average fan at TMS is going to think the NASCAR cars are faster because ...

there are more of them
they are bigger
they are noiser
they pass
they wreck

IIRC correctly, lap times/speeds aren't posted regularly anyway. It's just simply not a tech exercise for racing nerds--it's a show. It's great to be a racing junkie, but nobody in the racing business is looking to you as a sponsorship target because you're a REALLY small minority.

[gonzo]

I'm thinking it doesn't matter to the majority. Samples of one such as myself (or you) are obviously meaningless. This is about product/promotion, i.e. racing business.

Most people react to the noise more than anything and noisy means fast.

So you think Randy needs to just make them noisier. Perfect.....explains why F1 is so damn popular they are the noisiest. That is a pretty easy solution, don't know why they didn't think of that solution quicker, cause it is such an easy fix.

I've seen both NASCAR and Indycar at Texas Motor Speedway and think most are like me in thinking we don't much see the speed difference. We can read about it of course, that's that's just techno-nerd stuff.

Techno nerd stuff? Cool, I 'll remember that and be sure to come back to it.

Here's what I think's most important to the average fan. At last summer's snoozefest indycar race at TMS, about the only thing I could continuously see was the electric-green go-daddy car. The rest was just a couple clumps of indistinguishable cars and nobody ever passed for the lead. Simona and Davey going by every few seconds nose-to-tail wasn't real exciting although it's nice Davey was back.

No, I think the average fan at TMS is going to think the NASCAR cars are faster because ...

there are more of them
they are bigger
they are noiser
they pass
they wreck

IIRC correctly, lap times/speeds aren't posted regularly anyway. It's just simply not a tech exercise for racing nerds--it's a show. It's great to be a racing junkie, but nobody in the racing business is looking to you as a sponsorship target because you're a REALLY small minority.

So you are admitting then to the TF audience that you can't tell the difference between an Indy Car that is really pushing it, on the limit on a flyer, and when he is not. That's only a couple mph difference and you can't tell the difference. That's a shame, cause it would open a whole new world of appreciation not just during qualifying, but also in a race.

[Todd Gack]

Speed matters. Are you going to suggest it doesn't matter ilkris? I'm talking INdy Car here, no other series, just Indy Car, does speed matter in Indy Car or does it not matter? Cause you are sitting here trying to convince me that it doesn't matter.

In the big picture, speed really doesn't matter that much. Formula Car/Aero Dependent lighter Indy Cars will always be faster then full bodied/aero challenged heavier stock cars at similar tracks. Doesn't mean much though with regards to the popularity of the two entities.

Its about DRIVERS. Always has been and always will be. And the top stock car series far and away has got more of the types of drivers you can get folks in this country to care about and watch on TV or in person. Whether they are going 190 MPH at Texas or 225 MPH at Texas.

One day, the folks in the IC world will figure this out....maybe.

[hdolan]

"Its about DRIVERS. Always has been and always will be. And the top stock car series far and away has got more of the types of drivers you can get folks in this country to care about and watch on TV or in person. Whether they are going 190 MPH at Texas or 225 MPH at Texas."

So what 'type' of driver would assist the IC series in popularity...

[Chris Paff]

So what 'type' of driver would assist the IC series in popularity...

Talented American drivers..

[Turn13]

What does it take to attract and retain talent (American or not)?

You can curse the darkness, or you can light a candle.

[martyrothrules]

Talented American drivers..

If it's all about Americans:

How do explain The Beatles, The Who, AC/DC, The Rolling Stones, U2, Led Zeppelin, and Pink Floyd being among the best selling rock bands of all time?

How do explain the Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima, Toyota Corrolla, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Hyundai Sonata and Toyota Prius all outselling the best selling American passenger car in December 2011?

How do you explain that the top grossing movie in 2011 had zero to do with the USA or Americans?

[Turn13]

I ranked talent most important, and I always have:

Product (82.5% total)						
	drivers					
		talent			30
		personality		3
	teams				2
	cars		        	10
	tracks				7.5
	action				20
		rules				
		composite (all the above)				
	fan experience					
		access			5
		buzz			5
Promotion	(17.5% total)				
	news and info					
		sports coverage	4
		media guides, pamphlets, pdf's	0.25
		PR - phone, etc.	0.25
		Websites				1
	advertising					
		Personal appearances		1
		TV & Radio ads			1
		Print media ads			1
		Billboards			1
		Signage				1
		Sponsor activation		1
	buzz					
		general public discussion	1
		fans: word-of-mouth personal endorsement	3
		social media			2

What works to attract and retain American talent is what works everywhere, always has, and is in fact the only thing that does: popularity.


You either help light the candle with new fan encouragement, or continue to help keep it dark with the bitching.

It's maybe 5% of the overall picture, but it's 95% of what we do here

Word of mouth endorsements are the most powerful form of promotion. Bitching and whining irrationally is about the worst thing fans can do to increase popuarity.

It's not like the powers that be (aka poo bahs) don't know - they have much more info than we do, and much more riding on the outcome.

[Chris Paff]

You either help light the candle with new fan encouragement, or continue to help keep it dark with the bitching.

So you want Cheerleading got it..

BTW: Nothing that is said on this forum means anything in reguards to getting people to tune in or to buy race tickets.. I do my part by taking rookies to Indy and other races over the years..

[Chris Paff]

If it's all about Americans:

How do explain The Beatles, The Who, AC/DC, The Rolling Stones, U2, Led Zeppelin, and Pink Floyd being among the best selling rock bands of all time?

How do explain the Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima, Toyota Corrolla, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Hyundai Sonata and Toyota Prius all outselling the best selling American passenger car in December 2011?

How do you explain that the top grossing movie in 2011 had zero to do with the USA or Americans?

None of those examples have anything to do with racing..

[martyrothrules]

None of those examples have anything to do with racing..

Why would racing be any different than any other product or form of entertainment?

[Fro]

What does it take to attract and retain talent (American or not)?

You can curse the darkness, or you can light a candle.

You develop American/Canadian talent. Get 32 of the top young drivers in North America together, have a shootout, then the top 16 move on to the next phases of the competition. This continues you're left with 4.

Those 4 get signed to a "Red Bull Scholarship"-type deal that fully funds their racing up to the big cars and as a condition they sign a 10-year no-compete agreement (that takes effect once they debut in the big cars) that bans them from competiting in NASCAR races without permission from IndyCar.

How does that all get paid for? Still working on nailing that part down but the nature of the competition should lead to a lot of sponsors being interested in helping fund these drivers.

[Turn13]

I'm attending just such a shootout right now, but it won't be on TV until April, on CBS. That's what the sponsors think, based on the sub-20K crowds (75K for five-days)and sub 0.9 ratings.

It's always all pretty straight-forward except for the part about paying for it

It can ONLY be paid for by popular demand. Neither KK nor TG nor RP nor CG - or anybody, anything - has that kind of payola anymore.

[Chris Paff]

Why would racing be any different than any other product or form of entertainment?

Because it is.. Sports are different then Music.. Racing is different then Team Sports.. You follow a band because you like their music.. I follow the Orioles because they are my hometown team.. I dont follow bands just because they are from Baltimore.. I would only follow those bands if I like their music..

Get any American driver in a top car and have him win races and titles and he/she will be more popular then Franchitti, Dixon, Kanaan, Power, etc..

[Turn13]

Proably true, Chris.

The second paragraph, anyway

[hdolan]

So we really don't know what 'type' of driver is needed to gain the popularity of Cup...BTW: I seriously doubt if what goes on in thee forums has any noticeable effect on the general public and it's attitude towards racing...just a guess...

[hdolan]

Why would racing be any different than any other product or form of entertainment?

I don't know, but, I used to get yelled out around here for saying that racing is entertainment...you are correct, that's exactly what it is, nothing but...

[indyracefan]

So you want Cheerleading got it..

BTW: Nothing that is said on this forum means anything in reguards to getting people to tune in or to buy race tickets.. I do my part by taking rookies to Indy and other races over the years..

I believe there's a difference between cheer-leading, honest but rational constructive criticism & cynical condescending condemnation.

And you are right that to the majority of the mass population, what's said here doesn't effect anything one-iota.

However what you say to friends & relatives can play a small part. If the attitude reflected by some here are how they really talk and act to friends & relatives about a certain subject, there's an impact.

People will listen to those they know & respect and hear what they say. And if one is continually casting a negative light on something, many will assume that attitude without knowing or seeing for themselves first-hand. And then they may tell others what was said to them and then you get a trickle-effect....just sayin'.

I'm not suggesting that the malcontents are responsible for the shape IndyCar is in, not by a long-shot. Unquestionably though by routinely knocking something they're doing nothing to really help it either.

Constructive criticism is good. There's plenty wrong with the series. Some of what you say has merit. I can agree with you on many things but your delivery and realistic rational expectations needs polishing. However a lot of what you say is hyperbole and just belly-aching...and you say it almost daily.

[Chris Paff]

I believe there's a difference between cheer-leading, honest but rational constructive criticism & cynical condescending condemnation.

And you are right that to the majority of the mass population, what's said here doesn't effect anything one-iota.

However what you say to friends & relatives can play a small part. If the attitude reflected by some here are how they really talk and act to friends & relatives about a certain subject, there's an impact.

People will listen to those they know & respect and hear what they say. And if one is continually casting a negative light on something, many will assume that attitude without knowing or seeing for themselves first-hand. And then they may tell others what was said to them and then you get a trickle-effect....just sayin'.

I'm not suggesting that the malcontents are responsible for the shape IndyCar is in, not by a long-shot. Unquestionably though by routinely knocking something they're doing nothing to really help it either.

Constructive criticism is good. There's plenty wrong with the series. Some of what you say has merit. I can agree with you on many things but your delivery and realistic rational expectations needs polishing. However a lot of what you say is hyperbole and just belly-aching...and you say it almost daily.

Honestly, Indycar rarely ever comes up in any conversations.. Most of my friends have zero interest in racing..

There was no reason why I was banned from the Indycar forum today.. I was stating facts.. I did not bash anyone or anything.. I was stating my opinion based on facts..

Trust me I am a fan just frustrated.. Hell I am listening to the Talk of Gasoline Alley as I type this..

[gonzo]

Get any American driver in a top car and have him win races and titles and he/she will be more popular then Franchitti, Dixon, Kanaan, Power, etc..

Hunter Reay and Rahal are proven winners and at the very least consistent front runners. Yet Kanaan is ten times more popular amongst American fans and he's Brazilian. Marco is the son of two American racing legends and nobody cares about him.

Keep dreaming Chris. The IRL itself, the entire premise is what you long for yet it failed. Your theories are proven wrong time and again.

[hdolan]

Hunter Reay and Rahal are proven winners and at the very least consistent front runners. Yet Kanaan is ten times more popular amongst American fans and he's Brazilian. Marco is the son of two American racing legends and nobody cares about him.

Keep dreaming Chris. The IRL itself, the entire premise is what you long for yet it failed. Your theories are proven wrong time and again.

My mistake...

[Chris Paff]

Hunter Reay and Rahal are proven winners and at the very least consistent front runners. Yet Kanaan is ten times more popular amongst American fans and he's Brazilian. Marco is the son of two American racing legends and nobody cares about him.

Keep dreaming Chris. The IRL itself, the entire premise is what you long for yet it failed. Your theories are proven wrong time and again.

Rahal has won 1 career race over 3 years ago.. Hunter-Reay does not win very often and has never challenged for titles.. Once again Marco has won 2 career races in 6 years.. None of the three examples fit with what I was saying..

Sam Hornish fits my example and he was more popular then Kanaan is currently when Hornish was in the IRL..

[gonzo]

In the big picture, speed really doesn't matter that much. Formula Car/Aero Dependent lighter Indy Cars will always be faster then full bodied/aero challenged heavier stock cars at similar tracks.

Wow, thanks for stating the obvious.

Doesn't mean much though with regards to the popularity of the two entities.

Ya, it means everything. Two different products with very different defining elements.

Its about DRIVERS. Always has been and always will be. And the top stock car series far and away has got more of the types of drivers you can get folks in this country to care about and watch on TV or in person. Whether they are going 190 MPH at Texas or 225 MPH at Texas.

One day, the folks in the IC world will figure this out....maybe.

Yep, sure whatever, like all you guys that claim speed isn't important, not one of you can give a single rational explanation as to why Indy Lights isn't more popular thank Indy Car then and if speed doesn't matter why Nationwide is only a fraction as popular as Cup.

But you are absolutely right, speed doesn't matter.

Superspeedways play absolutely zero significance in the popularity or mystique of the sport. You are 100% right.

Lets just do away with Indy Cars all together, its gotten far to fast, dangerous and costly. Lets just take Indy Lights fill the seats full of American drivers and all the problems will be solved cause speed has nothing to do with things. You are so right Gack.

Why don't you talk about F1? Why is it always NASCAR as the comparison with you?

[gonzo]

So tell us Gonzo, what 'type' of racer do you suggest would increase the popularity of IC...after all, you are the one who said they needed to get the right 'type'...

The type of racer that would increase the popularity of the sport is the type of racer that wins in equipment and a series that captures the imaginations and interest of the fans.

You could take Jimmie Johnson, put him in an Indy Car and watch him win and his popularity would shrink because winning in an Indy Car right now means nothing.

Indy Car used to generate its own stars.