What's this guy got against Katherine Legge to make him trash her so?

[JimmyB10]

A disingenuous argument...Legge raced three of those four seasons in a top tier motorsports series. It's not like she was sitting on the couch.

Not at all. You could hardly ask for two cars more different than IndyCar and DTM.

It's not 'apples and oranges'...if she is as talented as you claim, there should have been better results. Period.

That's easy. Explain the struggles of David Coulthard and Ralf Schumacher to me, then. Ralf got the hang of it, but it took him three seasons. Coulthard was an also ran for two full seasons. You expect her to do as well as them? Because I don't

Accusing other posters of "simple minded ignorance" and of being "on drugs" certainly adds to your argument though...

It doesn't detract from them. Most of the arguments have been, quite literally, simple-minded (little more than "she sucks and that's that, don't bother me with facts") and ignorant (of the actual character of her career results outside DTM). And if someone predicts she will be parked like Milka, then yes, I want some of what they are smoking, because there is no evidence anywhere in her career that would lead one to that conclusion. She was more than four seconds faster than Milka at St. Pete, and she ran with the front of the pack in her very first oval race, which Milka and Marty never, ever managed to do.

[NotSoBad]

Ill take some of what youre smoking Jimmy.

If you have a driver who has "showed potential" in a handful of races, yet in a total of 5 seasons of top tier series has managed to finish dead last 100% of the time, why would you want that driver?

Cause she had a pole in an irrelevant series and a track record? or cause she had one or two runs that didnt put her at the tail of the field every year?

Even if you make the argument that she has the potential (which personally, i dont think so) the time for her being on a new team and trying to show her potential was 10 years ago, not now at 31.

[JimmyB10]

Ill take some of what youre smoking Jimmy.

If you have a driver who has "showed potential" in a handful of races, yet in a total of 5 seasons of top tier series has managed to finish dead last 100% of the time, why would you want that driver?

Cause she had a pole in an irrelevant series and a track record? or cause she had one or two runs that didnt put her at the tail of the field every year?

Even if you make the argument that she has the potential (which personally, i dont think so) the time for her being on a new team and trying to show her potential was 10 years ago, not now at 31.

Dead last 100% of the time? That's not even true of DTM (which is another kettle of fish), but it is so wildly not true of ChampCar that one might suspect you don't actually watch racing. You are factually wrong or repeating lame arguments that have been clearly disproven several times already on nearly every point in your post. Formula Renault is not irrelevant. She was racing against a huge, world-class field in 2001 because Kimi Räikkönen had jumped straight from Formula Renault to Formula One the previous year, and made it even moreso the place to be if you wanted to the noticed. A pole and track record in Formula Renault is not irrelevant, it turned many heads and won her a very prestigious award. She had three strong finishes in three North American Formula Renault races in 2004 (this, you might conceivably be able to call an irrlelevant series, but nonetheless included drivers who went on to Atlantics and even ChampCar) With having hardly driven in three seasons because of lack of funding, the results were there in 2004, as they were in Atlantics in 2005, and ChampCar in 2006-7. So much so, that she was awarded the 2005 RACER Magazine "Most Promising Road Racer of The Year" award, a title that had been awarded three times to A. J. Allmendinger and previously to drivers such as Räikkönen, Jenson Button, Cristiano da Matta, Alex Barron, Giancarlo Fisichella, Greg Moore, and Gil de Ferran. Her potential is proven, as is the fact that she hasn't had a competitive car yet in three races in 2012 in which to deliver.

And she had actually had as many top tens in CCWS as finishes at the tail end of the field, and, as I have clearly pointed out, fully half of her races were wiped out by mechanical DNFs or contact that was someone else's fault. Her record outside DTM is respectable. Even when she finished near the back, there were usually a couple cars running behind her and a majority of the time she was on the lead lap, so she was almost never "dead last" in any sense of the word, either of running cars or final finish. You certainly cannot say she did this by cruising and just putting around like Milka. She pushed hard, every race, and when she was at the back it was usually because she had spun pushing hard or had a mechanical problem (or had simply started there because of her freely-admitted difficulty qualifying in ChampCars).

She has already shown her potential as recently as five years ago with several (not one or two) strong drives in 2007 (I count four in 2007 alone, to include her strong top ten before late contact with Jani at Houston, and Mt. Tremblant, where she was on track for a top five before she hit a curb, bent the suspension and dropped just out of the top 10 bust still finished on the lead lap; 2006 had at least that number of strong drives, her 8th at Cleveland included a flat tyre and unscheduled pit stop). In 2007, when her car wasn't catching on fire, wheels weren't falling off (twice in one weekend), and hotshots weren't punting her into the tires -- Clarke got probation, Will "nothing's my fault" Power admitted he made a bonehead move at Surfer's Paradise, at Toronto she was one of five cars taken out on the first lap, the car directly in front launched into the air and the car behind rammed into her, so clearly nothing she could have done -- when this kind of stuff wasn't happening, she was racy and solid, moving up, not back.

Your opinion is based on vague, inaccurate impressions, not fact. DTM could be debated, but I consider it is obvious that past open wheel performance is a better indicator of what she can do than touring cars.

Three races in 2012, three misfiring engines (how can you continue to ignore that?), with almost no testing and rain-shortened practice. And she has still thoroughly dusted Milka's best road course performance of four seasons. At St. Pete and Barber, even with a sour engine, Kat was within 2 seconds of the leaders (and at St. Pete never got lapped on the track). The only thing Milka was ever within two seconds of on a road course was the safety car. Ovals? She did better in her one oval race (her first ever) than Milka ever managed in four seasons.

She was pretty much a failure at DTM, yes, but she has some pretty decent company there.

[rrrr]

I hope you type fast.

[vintage]

JimmyB10 - you're seeing the glass half full, others see it half empty. You choose to emphasize her successes, others her failures. Both can be felt to be correct.

I think a reasonable view is that she was ok in Atlantics against a weak field, she was mediocre in Champ Car, she was bad in DTM, and she has been questionable so far in IndyCar. I understand that she has been challenged by her equipment, but hasn't really shown any flashes of performance, at least not that I can recognize.

I also can't really believe you're not a big fan of hers - you know way to many details of her career to just be an semi-interested participant in this discussion. You have cherry-picked the good and chosen to ignore the bad.

[Bezzen]

@JimmyB10

I know you see potential in her. I wonder how you rate her compared to drivers lacking funds to be on the grid. Drivers like Pantano, Baguette, Filippi (perhaps he'll show up), Carroll and Guerrieri.

[rrrr]

She has already shown her potential as recently as five years ago with several (not one or two) strong drives in 2007 (I count four in 2007 alone, to include her strong top ten before late contact with Jani at Houston, and Mt. Tremblant, where she was on track for a top five before she hit a curb, bent the suspension and dropped just out of the top 10 bust still finished on the lead lap

Crashing into objects and other cars pretty much negate the positives of a particular performance...after all, Tommy Scheckter and J.R. Hildebrand almost won the Indy 500. No one lists that as a success.

[RS2]

I just went back and read the article that started this whole thread and there is not even a hint of the author bashing Legge. Nothing. It is a respecrtful fact driven article that raises some questions. Just like a good article should be.

[Freddy1285]

Most of the arguments have been, quite literally, simple-minded (little more than "she sucks and that's that, don't bother me with facts") and ignorant (of the actual character of her career results outside DTM). And if someone predicts she will be parked like Milka, then yes, I want some of what they are smoking, because there is no evidence anywhere in her career that would lead one to that conclusion. She was more than four seconds faster than Milka at St. Pete, and she ran with the front of the pack in her very first oval race, which Milka and Marty never, ever managed to do.

Perhaps in one of your lengthy diatribes of excuses for Legge's lack of results in her career you could address why it is that she has been beaten by every single teammate she has ever had -except for her one season in Atlantics, where she tied Antoine Bessette, a driver no one has ever heard of after his short stint in that series. The next year, when the big boys like Hinch, Pagenaud, Rahal and Matos showed up, that same teammate who she was tied with couldn't get a full time ride and finished 34th. You can also include all current Lotus drivers in this year's IICS as her "teammates", where she is once again last, tied with Desilvestro. Can't wait to read your 10 paragraph essay justifying that one!

Perhaps it's not the 99% of TF members who disagree with you who are "on drugs" or "simple-minded" like you put it Jimmy, but rather you, who is so delusional in some kind of a weird obsession over a female driver, that you overlook reality in evaluating her talent...

[JimmyB10]

Perhaps it's not the 99% of TF members who disagree with you who are "on drugs" or "simple-minded" like you put it Jimmy, but rather you, who is so delusional in some kind of a weird obsession over a female driver, that you overlook reality in evaluating her talent...

It is not 99% by a long shot. The number of posters who have agreed with me is roughly equal to the number of posters who disagree, they simply haven't kept repeating the same points in multiple posts that I have addressed multiple times from multiple angles.

Within the facts and reasoning I have presented, point to a delusion. Something more specific than "she's terrible, can't you see that?" which has been asked and throughly answered many times. If you have nothing substantive to answer the mountain of evidence I have presented, please just give it a rest.

[Tree0404]

I just went back and read the article that started this whole thread and there is not even a hint of the author bashing Legge. Nothing. It is a respecrtful fact driven article that raises some questions. Just like a good article should be.

Except for the fact that the TITLE of the article is "What's this guy got against Katherine Legge......"


Enter "statistics/anecdotes, etc. that people have against Katherine Legge"

[Tree0404]

It is not 99% by a long shot. The number of posters who have agreed with me is roughly equal to the number of posters who disagree, they simply haven't kept repeating the same points in multiple posts that I have addressed multiple times from multiple angles.

Within the facts and reasoning I have presented, point to a delusion. Something more specific than "she's terrible, can't you see that?" which has been asked and throughly answered many times. If you have nothing substantive to answer the mountain of evidence I have presented, please just give it a rest.

Jimmy,

a) 50/50 agree/disagree on Kat Legge with you would be a vast overstatement. I'd say its more like 20 agree/80 disagree

b) There have been SEVERAL (I would argue MOST) comments specifying certain aspects of her career and people stating things beyond "she's terrible, can't you see that", but you either clearly don't remember these posts or continue to ignore them outright. I along with other people have countered your "mountain of evidence"; we have thoroughly and factually deconstructed your mountain into a molehill, yet it continues to not be enough for you or make sense to you.

Your counter arguments have been ripe with red herring and straw man arguments. They just don't hold water.

We know you like Kat. That's fine. That doesn't mean we have to.

[RS2]

Except for the fact that the TITLE of the article is "What's this guy got against Katherine Legge......"


Enter "statistics/anecdotes, etc. that people have against Katherine Legge"

That is the title of this thread not the article. The title of the article is "Legge signing would be step back for IndyCar" which obviously a fan of Legge such as Jimmy would take exception to. But the same would go for any other ride buyer with the same talent male or female who enters the series with so many other good drivers on the sidelines.

[JimmyB10]

Crashing into objects and other cars pretty much negate the positives of a particular performance...after all, Tommy Scheckter and J.R. Hildebrand almost won the Indy 500. No one lists that as a success.

Which she did, I will point out, with about a total of 60 races anywhere above karts to her name, while I bet you just about every single driver in the series had twice that many pro race under their belt before they were were old enough to have a beer in the pub. Inexperienced drivers make mistakes; Paul Tracy was still making bonehead mistakes when he was an aging former champion.

[rrrr]

Which she did, I will point out, with about a total of 60 races anywhere above karts to her name, while I bet you just about every single driver in the series had twice that many pro race under their belt before they were were old enough to have a beer in the pub. Inexperienced drivers make mistakes; Paul Tracy was still making bonehead mistakes when he was an aging former champion.

This thread should be called "The Excuse Tree"...it keeps sprouting new branches.

[Freddy1285]

It is not 99% by a long shot. The number of posters who have agreed with me is roughly equal to the number of posters who disagree, they simply haven't kept repeating the same points in multiple posts that I have addressed multiple times from multiple angles.

Within the facts and reasoning I have presented, point to a delusion. Something more specific than "she's terrible, can't you see that?" which has been asked and throughly answered many times. If you have nothing substantive to answer the mountain of evidence I have presented, please just give it a rest.

Jimmy, your mountain of evidence is referring to specific portions of races where she had decent results or made a few passes. 8th places finishes and 6 top 10's in a 16-car series isn't a sign of "potential" and "greatness" to come. You could dissect the career of almost any professional race car driver and come with a few races or parts of races where they had good showings. But there's a lot more required for a driver to be any good. Furthermore, at the same time of pointing out her so-called "achievements", you neglect to put any weight on your own statements like "she's doesn't qualify well" or "she hit a curb and bent the suspension" or "she was pretty much a failure at DTM".

Finally, and I would like to hear your answer on this so I will repeat my question: why it is that she has been beaten by every single teammate she has ever had, including the 5 current Lotus drivers, since she started racing in top tiered series?

[Tree0404]

You could dissect the career of almost any professional race car driver and come with a few races or parts of races where they had good showings.

See: Kimball, Jakes, Moraes, Viso, etc.

Some of the above mentioned drivers may be/have improved, but there are other drivers on the sidelines who are more immediately deserving.

[JimmyB10]

Jimmy,
a) 50/50 agree/disagree on Kat Legge with you would be a vast overstatement. I'd say its more like 20 agree/80 disagree

I honestly don't think so. Did you count? When you do (number of posters, not number of posts), get back to me and if you are closer than I am, I will gladly concede this point.

b) There have been SEVERAL (I would argue MOST) comments specifying certain aspects of her career and people stating things beyond "she's terrible, can't you see that", but you either clearly don't remember these posts or continue to ignore them outright. I along with other people have countered your "mountain of evidence"; we have thoroughly and factually deconstructed your mountain into a molehill, yet it continues to not be enough for you or make sense to you.

Name them. I don't recall seeing a valid argument that doesn't involve DTM yet. I have responded specifically and thoroughly to each argument. The same is usually not true of my detractors, they are usually vague generalities based on points or ad hominem attacks.

Your counter arguments have been ripe with red herring and straw man arguments. They just don't hold water.

Name them. Be specific. Where is a red herring or straw man argument? Show me a significant factual error or misrepresentation. I have responded specifically and thoroughly to each argument with descriptions of her actual record, based on published, easily-verifiable information.

We know you like Kat. That's fine. That doesn't mean we have to.

Taking a patronizing tone does not help this situation in any way. You are free to like or not like her all you want. That is not what this is about at all. No driver deserves to have her reputation slandered and her record distorted unfairly, and her record does not merit the criticism she is receiving here by a long shot. She is being transformed into some weird, mutated combination of Danica and Milka that bears no resemblance to her record or her ability.

We are not talking about Milka, Marty, Dr. Jack or even Pippa here. We are talking about a driver who was considered by a majority of the racing community as a rising star before DTM, not a field filler or a ride buyer. She joined ChampCar against her own better judgment in 2006 at Kalkhoven's insistence, having stated publicly before and after that she wanted another year in Atlantics. Who could say no to a ride in the big cars? I am not calling her a star or a great driver, I am merely asking that she be given a fair shake and be judged on her actual performance on the track with the equipment she has been given, not superficial impressions and point totals.

[RS2]

See: Kimball, Jakes, Moraes, Viso, etc.

Some of the above mentioned drivers may be/have improved, but there are other drivers on the sidelines who are more immediately deserving.

Jakes not so much. I just looked and in the Formula 3 Euro series he had 24 top tens in 3 seasons with 13 of those top 5 finishes with 2 wins. Not bad

In GP2 Asia he raced in 16 races and had 6 top 10 finishes.

And Kimball was not bad at all. 2010 Indylights 13 races with 8 top 5 finishes.

[JimmyB10]

See: Kimball, Jakes, Moraes, Viso, etc.

Some of the above mentioned drivers may be/have improved, but there are other drivers on the sidelines who are more immediately deserving.

Since I started the thread, I think it fair that I suggest guidelines and rules. Address my actual arguments, not peripheral "red herrings" (to quote another post).

Answer me this. Can you picture these posters all making the same persistent, vehement arguments that Kimball, Jakes, Moraes, etc. are awful drivers who have no business in IndyCar? I personally don't think so.

[Tree0404]

No driver deserves to have her reputation slandered and her record distorted unfairly

For crying out loud man, this is an online opinion/news forum of mostly keyboard jockeys/indycar fans, not Scientific American or USA today. Slander?

[RS2]

Since I started the thread, I think it fair that I suggest guidelines and rules. Address my actual arguments, not peripheral "red herrings" (to quote another post).

Answer me this. Can you picture these posters all making the same persistent, vehement arguments that Kimball, Jakes, Moraes, etc. are awful drivers who have no business in IndyCar? I personally don't think so.

You cannot compare Legge with those other drivers. Not even a little bit.

[Tree0404]

Since I started the thread, I think it fair that I suggest guidelines and rules. Address my actual arguments, not peripheral "red herrings" (to quote another post).

Answer me this. Can you picture these posters all making the same persistent, vehement arguments that Kimball, Jakes, Moraes, etc. are awful drivers who have no business in IndyCar? I personally don't think so.

Yes, clearly you havent seen (or ignore) the numerous posts that ripped Jakes when he got Coyne's ride last year, or ripped Kimball because "he only brought $$ not talent" or Moraes when he was hitting everything in sight.

What about persistent, vehement arguments that are pro-Legge? I don't see anyone coming to her rescue or defense NEAR as much as you. Most people are like me - their opinion is "she deserves a shot, but based on her track record, i wouldn't expect much. also, there are more deserving drivers on the sidelines that deserve the ride more than her, but she got it cuz she's female and brings cash and can turn heads"

[JimmyB10]

@JimmyB10

I know you see potential in her. I wonder how you rate her compared to drivers lacking funds to be on the grid. Drivers like Pantano, Baguette, Filippi (perhaps he'll show up), Carroll and Guerrieri.

I am not familiar enough with most of the drivers you mention to make a knowledgeable judgment on the record, except Baguette, whom I have said before looks like the real deal and I would be happy if he got a shot over many of the drivers already in IndyCar, including Kat.

[JimmyB10]

Yes, clearly you havent seen (or ignore) the numerous posts that ripped Jakes when he got Coyne's ride last year, or ripped Kimball because "he only brought $$ not talent" or Moraes when he was hitting everything in sight.

No, haven't seen them (then again, they weren't posts attacking me in a thread I started). I would be very surprised indeed if they amounted all together to even a fraction of the number of posts or posters bashing Legge as much or more.

What about persistent, vehement arguments that are pro-Legge? I don't see anyone coming to her rescue or defense NEAR as much as you. Most people are like me - their opinion is "she deserves a shot, but based on her track record, i wouldn't expect much. also, there are more deserving drivers on the sidelines

Which is, oddly enough, just about exactly my opinion. If you look back and notice, I have been responding to posts that say much, MUCH more than that, and the article that started the whole thread said she shouldn't be given a license and allowed on the track at all, for safety reasons and explicitly compared her to Milka and Marty. I started from there, not from "Kat is my favorite driver and I think she's great!" I am not the one who blew this up all out of proportion; I have been responding to the same unwarranted criticism from post 1 to post N, starting with Norris McDonald's half-baked hatchet job.

[RS2]

the article that started the whole thread said she shouldn't be given a license and allowed on the track at all, for safety reasons

Why are you saying that? The article said no such thing. Show us the quote.

[JimmyB10]

I hope you type fast.

This is fun for you? I assure you, it is not for me. I am trying to engage in serious discussion, and assuiming others are expressing themselves in good faith. I don't like being told I am full of beans, and I certainly do not take any pleasure whatsoever in winding up other members for my own amusement. I understand the concept of empathy and what it feels like to be on the other side of the computer.

At the risk of incurring doitagain's wrath, I will tell you that your posts make you appear to be a real jerk. From what I know of the Net and the effects of online anonymity in breaking down normal inhibitions and common courtesy, I hope that is not true, but I am not encouraged one bit by your attitude.

[RS2]

You know what Jimmy. You are not Kat any favors with this thread. Nobody was complaing about her until you came along.

[JimmyB10]

I just went back and read the article that started this whole thread and there is not even a hint of the author bashing Legge. Nothing. It is a respecrtful fact driven article that raises some questions. Just like a good article should be.

There is a very good reason you are on my ignore list. If someone else hadn't quoted you, I would never have seen this little gem.

McDonald says Legge has no business on an IndyCar track, should not be given a license for safety reasons, and explicitly compares her to Milka and Marty. That is bashing in the extreme.

If you are saying such nonsense just to get a reaction from me, go get a life, dude. If not, you need professional help of some kind. Please seek it.

[RS2]

Somebody quote me.

The article does not say that. Show us the quote.