City Council President Urges Cancellation of Baltimore Grand Prix

[doitagain]

The first two, only trivia buffs would associate with Baltimore. The last one, only Baltimore trivia buffs know.

[indyumd]

There's zero point in arguing with anyone from Baltimore about their city.

They are stuck between a bunch of bigger, more important cities and their population has been decimated over the past 50 years. They have a huge inferiority complex about this and most will blindly defend Baltimore to the death.

[ARROWZ46]

How about the Preakness?

War of 1812/Francis Scott Key

Our Inner Harbor

Horse racing is as "dead" as some claim OW racing has become. I'm a greyhound lover so I'll admit I'm not much of a horse racing fan either! Besides I associate famous horse races with Kentucky not Baltimore. I also live near the Great Lakes, so one port or harbor doesn't make a region "world class" or put it on the map. As for the historical... the War of 1812 is a tad overshadowed by the 7-8 other wars the USA has been apart of over the last 200 years!

Again, I'm not being a jerk... just suggesting that if Baltimore could become the east cost LBGP, it would be cast as a positive to this motorsport fan... perhaps others too?

[ARROWZ46]

There's zero point in arguing with anyone from Baltimore about their city.

They are stuck between a bunch of bigger, more important cities and their population has been decimated over the past 50 years. They have a huge inferiority complex about this and most will blindly defend Baltimore to the death.

Hey, I can relate I'm from Detroit... we do the same thing!!!

[doitagain]

There's zero point in arguing with anyone from Baltimore about their city.

They are stuck between a bunch of bigger, more important cities and their population has been decimated over the past 50 years. They have a huge inferiority complex about this and most will blindly defend Baltimore to the death.

Sound like Hoosiers

[Lis]

Baltimore is already on the world map

When you say 'World', do you mean the real World, or the one that many Americans believe ends at the US borders/coasts?

[PenelopePitstop]

No one said anything about catching a plane but 2 hours is 120 miles or so. Sorry not local.

For attending an Indycar race, 2 hours is definitely "local" For most it is a daytrip, not an overnight thing. Richmond was a 2-hour drive and I considered it a local race. We would leave home around noon, get to the track and eat/drink what we brought in our cooler. Other than race tix and a few souveniers and sodas bought at the track, we had no impact on the local economy. Because we were local. Non-locals who came and spent the night impacted the Richmond economy far more - transportation, food, lodging, etc.

[AFColt]

Sound like Hoosiers

Pssh. We've added people--check the Census. And Indy is now the 2nd-largest city in the Midwest.

That said, my inferiority complex is none of your business. And my state is the best.

[The Stickman]

Now we're talking about what 'you' call local. So help me understand what is local to you. In terms of tracks,teams or a series of choice.

Since 1.5 hours or anything out from that isn't local, help me understand whats local to you.

I have a local Baseball field we're seniors play thats less then 10 blocks from here. I have a "local" MLB team thats two hours away. So what kind of local are you talking about.

OK how about this. Philly is an hour from me. Are you going to try and tell me a resturant there is a local business?

[The Stickman]

But before this, you said 2 hours isn't local. Now you say Naz is 20 from your house. Is Naz local? Or is it a home track? Or neither, or both... I'm trying to wrap my head around thinking a 1.5 hour drive to your nearest race isn't local. Is it because you have a track 20 minutes from your house where the IRL used to run and that 'was' local to you?

Whats the nearest Indycar race to you now?

I never said Nazareth wasn't local. but an hour and ahalf isn't close to local. I wouldn't even say something an hour away is local. the closest race at this point is Baltimore. But that doesn't make it local.

[Sweaty Teddy]

OK how about this. Philly is an hour from me. Are you going to try and tell me a resturant there is a local business?

Depends on the restaurant. A McDonalds? Probably not. A really nice restaurant that you visit one or two times a year and don't have anything like it closer to home? Yes.

I enjoyed everything about being at the Baltimore GP last year, but I am not a taxpayer in Baltimore. If my city decided to put on an event using tax dollars when those dollars are needed elsewhere and there are no guarantees that the city would recoup those funds or even make some money, I would think twice.

[The Stickman]

Depends on the restaurant. A McDonalds? Probably not. A really nice restaurant that you visit one or two times a year and don't have anything like it closer to home? Yes.

I enjoyed everything about being at the Baltimore GP last year, but I am not a taxpayer in Baltimore. If my city decided to put on an event using tax dollars when those dollars are needed elsewhere and there are no guarantees that the city would recoup those funds or even make some money, I would think twice.

What kinda logic is that? Whether it's local depends on what kinda of resturant it is? Since when does locality depend on something other than where it is? Try reading a dictionary.

lo·cal

   /ˈloʊkəl/ Show Spelled[loh-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective 1. pertaining to or characterized by place or position in space; spatial.

2. pertaining to, characteristic of, or restricted to a particular place or particular places: a local custom.

3. pertaining to a city, town, or small district rather than an entire state or country: local transportation.

4. stopping at most or all stations: a local train.

5. pertaining to or affecting a particular part or particular parts, as of a physical system or organism: a local disease.

[Old Racer]

For attending an Indycar race, 2 hours is definitely "local" For most it is a daytrip, not an overnight thing. Richmond was a 2-hour drive and I considered it a local race. We would leave home around noon, get to the track and eat/drink what we brought in our cooler. Other than race tix and a few souveniers and sodas bought at the track, we had no impact on the local economy. Because we were local. Non-locals who came and spent the night impacted the Richmond economy far more - transportation, food, lodging, etc.

I live three hours from Indy and many times I have driven over on Pole day and driven back that night, bringing with me food and drink, only spending money for gas, and then not all the time in Indy!

[JimmyB10]

For attending an Indycar race, 2 hours is definitely "local" For most it is a daytrip, not an overnight thing. Richmond was a 2-hour drive and I considered it a local race. We would leave home around noon, get to the track and eat/drink what we brought in our cooler. Other than race tix and a few souveniers and sodas bought at the track, we had no impact on the local economy. Because we were local. Non-locals who came and spent the night impacted the Richmond economy far more - transportation, food, lodging, etc.

This isn't directed at you specifically, Penny, but everyone here has gotten way off the track debating what "local" means. The discussion started with municipalities spending public funds on an event versus how much revenue it brings to the local economy and the municipality. To me, that means people who would not have otherwise been there and would not otherwise have spent that money. A resident of baltimore or its suburbs would normally be expected to spend his money on food and entertainment within Baltimore. Anyone an hour or more away would not go into Baltimore spend their money unless it were a special, non-routine trip. The revenue pumped into the economy and tax coffers for such a trip is money the city never would have seen otherwise had it not been for that event. What other definition of local vs. non-local is needed for this discussion?

[Justhalc]

The "Local" numbers proved to be a bunch of BS. Nobody flys into a race, even at the peak of OW then, and floods a city with that amount of money. Doesn't happen.

I flew into St. Pete and Las Vegas last year for the races.

[PenelopePitstop]

What other definition of local vs. non-local is needed for this discussion?

None.

My comments were to illustrate that a 2-hour drive for many fans is considered to be a day trip and they won't be spending much money away from the track. Not addressing the original point exactly, I realize, but it is a reality.

[rrrr]

Those of you talking about the great amounts of tax revenue the event generated seem to be forgetting the promoter pocketed that money and the state has seen $0.00 of it.

[Sweaty Teddy]

What kinda logic is that? Whether it's local depends on what kinda of resturant it is? Since when does locality depend on something other than where it is? Try reading a dictionary.

lo·cal

   /ˈloʊkəl/ Show Spelled[loh-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective 1. pertaining to or characterized by place or position in space; spatial.

2. pertaining to, characteristic of, or restricted to a particular place or particular places: a local custom.

3. pertaining to a city, town, or small district rather than an entire state or country: local transportation.

4. stopping at most or all stations: a local train.

5. pertaining to or affecting a particular part or particular parts, as of a physical system or organism: a local disease.

The logic is simple; the word "local" is relative. Lime Rock Park is the closest track to me. At an hour and twenty minutes or so it is local, compare to say, IMS, which is a 13 hour drive. The Subway restaurant in the next town over from where LRP isn't local to me because between me in Danbury and Lime Rock Park in Lakeville there are probably a dozen or so Subway store. My local Subway is about 30 seconds away.

[Motie]

"The Local Group is the group of galaxies that includes Earth's galaxy, the Milky Way. The group comprises more than 54 galaxies (including dwarf galaxies), with its gravitational center located somewhere between the Milky Way and the Andromeda Galaxy. The galaxies of the Local Group cover a 10 million light-year diameter (see 1 E+22 m for distance comparisons) and have a binary (dumbbell)[1] shape."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Group

10 million light-years to see an Indycar race? Sounds extreme.

[JimmyB10]

Those of you talking about the great amounts of tax revenue the event generated seem to be forgetting the promoter pocketed that money and the state has seen $0.00 of it.

No, we're not. The discussion became largely a theoretical one about the economic impact and value of such events in general. Baltimore is an anecdote in that discussion, and not a particularly instructive one.

No one plans and enters into such an event expecting an incompetent and/or dishonest private partner who won't be able to pay his bills. Unless that were the usual result of these events and it should therefore be factored into any calculations of expected benefits, it's not really relevant to the more general debate that is going on.

And who said "great amounts" of tax revenue?

And "pocketed the money" is overly simplistic. They incurred much more in debts than they could pay with the revenues the brought in. You make it sound as if they made off in the dead of night with a burlap sack stuffed full of cash and are sipping margaritas on the beach in Acapulco. As far as I can tell, these guys are screw ups, not crooks.

[doitagain]

10 million light-years to see an Indycar race? Sounds extreme.

Not if you wiggle your wormhole fast enough.

[JimmyB10]

10 million light-years to see an Indycar race? Sounds extreme.

For IRL or Champ Car, sure. Definitely too far for NASCAR. But for a 2012 Indycar race, totally worth it.

Maybe not in the motor home, mileage is too poor. But in a good hybrid? Hell, yeah!

[JimmyB10]

None. My comments were to illustrate that a 2-hour drive for many fans is considered to be a day trip and they won't be spending much money away from the track. Not addressing the original point exactly, I realize, but it is a reality.

Point taken. The others will eventually tire themselves out.

[Nigel Red5]

The councilman's argument is one we hear all the time. Spend it on the residents. Well, (and I'm a liberal), but most of the residents don't pay the bulk of the taxes needed to run a city. It also comes from tourism, everyday business, hotel and sales tax, etc. Business generates revenue for the city. Now, the city cannot keep going with promoters who don't pay their bills, that's for sure, and if this happens with another, that will be it. But to ignore that the city took in a lot of money that weekend is foolish.

This is a particularly bad problem in Baltimore. There is simply no tax base in Baltimore. Far too many hands out, no hands puting money IN Far too many tax sucking people expecting the city to provide everything for them while they sit home and shoot up and smokin the rock.

Jack Young is a real piece of work to be honest. He flip flops more than an IHOP on sunday morning. He sure was willing to take his share of the credit when the event went off and was an attendance success.

[Nigel Red5]

2-3 hours isn't local?

Hell, I know, if its 1.5 or two hours, I gotta catch a plane, rent a car, hire a tour guide, look for a hotel and learn a new language. Good grief.

2-3 hours around here can be three states away. I'm 40 minutes from the pit lane line, which I drive across every day. would consider myself local sinc I eat at some of the same resturants I at at on race weekend throughout hte week.

I was 2hrs on the button from NAZ, we're about 70 from Dover Downs and I'm 90 minutes from NJMSP. I wouldn't have any occasion to ever spend a nickle in any of the three areas if I wasn't there for a race. That to me says I'm not a local. If I'm already spending $20 at mcdonalds a mile from the track on saturday but today I spend it at Jimmy Johns, thn, I'm a local.

[SactoIndyFan]

Mid Ohio's management might not support your idea of Cleveland



Someone should remind this council president that his city's bars & restaurants, along with downtown hotels were jammed on a holiday weekend that usually finds a majority of them EMPTY. I'm sure the taxes from those establishments can also pump $$$ into Baltimore's "core issues"

Sadly, big city political pi$$ing matches always seem to creep into these temporary events.

Obviously the city isnt bringing in that much tax revenue from the hotels, bars and restaurants to offset its costs for hosting this thing. If they were, nobody would be objecting to it.

[Nigel Red5]

No, we're not. The discussion became largely a theoretical one about the economic impact and value of such events in general. Baltimore is an anecdote in that discussion, and not a particularly instructive one.

No one plans and enters into such an event expecting an incompetent and/or dishonest private partner who won't be able to pay his bills. Unless that were the usual result of these events and it should therefore be factored into any calculations of expected benefits, it's not really relevant to the more general debate that is going on.

And who said "great amounts" of tax revenue?

And "pocketed the money" is overly simplistic. They incurred much more in debts than they could pay with the revenues the brought in. You make it sound as if they made off in the dead of night with a burlap sack stuffed full of cash and are sipping margaritas on the beach in Acapulco. As far as I can tell, these guys are screw ups, not crooks.

The only evidence I've seen of anyone "pocketing" money was the individual that made a loan at indian casino rates to the promoter that allowed them to pay the sanctioning fee. I don't doubt that they spent millions, they just didn't make tens of millions on the race itself.

One of the downsides of the venue for the promoter is fans are not captive like at a permanent facility. With so many permanent resturants, shops, etc. in and around the track, tThe promoter isn't the one making the money directly on concessions, parking, souveniers, etc... after the first couple beers I bought from a wagon, the rest I drank were bought from local pubs for 1/4 what they were inside the track from their vendors, though I was really trying to spend around all weekend. Three days worth of light rail fares, even though I could have ridden free as a government employee, shirts, hats, food inside the convention center, the stadium, from vendors, at the hotels, at resturants inside and outside of the track. I spent several hundred dollars over the weekend between myself and my kids, but not a lot more than the ticket itself went directly to the race. They are really going to need a joint effort from ALL of the local businesses.

They took many paying vendors but I don't recall seeing the vendors or local merchants also sharing a percentage of their takewith the race. Actually, I recall reading they may have actually reimbursed one or more of the hotels for land-locking them all weekend. The hotels and such in the area need to help out and share the expense. I don't know how much even the Hotels that were official partners and advertizers at the race were actually contributing to the race. With all of the hotels adjacent to the track, every last attendee probably couuldof hada bed and a pillow and still had vacancies around the Harbor.

[TimmyZ1]

There's zero point in arguing with anyone from Baltimore about their city.

They are stuck between a bunch of bigger, more important cities and their population has been decimated over the past 50 years. They have a huge inferiority complex about this and most will blindly defend Baltimore to the death.

Meh, I'm from Cleveland and currently live here, we absolutely completely blow the doors off of anyone when it comes to inferiority complexes. Nobody is even close.

[JimmyB10]

Obviously the city isnt bringing in that much tax revenue from the hotels, bars and restaurants to offset its costs for hosting this thing. If they were, nobody would be objecting to it.

Did you really just say that? You don't actually believe it, do you?

The mayor could wheel out a perpetual motion/time machine that cured cancer, was fueled by nuclear waste and pooped strawberry cupcakes with sprinkles out the exhaust pipe, but if even a penny of it was paid for by tax dollars, LOTS of people would complain. After all, if the mayor would just eliminate all taxes and dissolve government altogether, private enterprise and capitalism would have produced an even better perpetual motion/time machine that cures cancer, is fueled by nuclear waste and poops strawberry cupcakes with sprinkles out the exhaust pipe. It's a matter of principal and an article of faith for some.

Plus, nobody knows what the real, honest figures are, at least not yet, so people's positions are informed more by their preconceived philosophy than real-world facts. For another, you really think the actual best interests of Baltimore's citizens have more to do with the council president's or the mayor's stance than local politics and rivalries? Where do you live, Disneyland?

No one would be objecting... Give me a break.

[Nigel Red5]

Obviously the city isnt bringing in that much tax revenue from the hotels, bars and restaurants to offset its costs for hosting this thing. If they were, nobody would be objecting to it.

The real "loss" the city incurred is the amount paid out for city salaries, most of whom would have been working anyway, since the never recieved the fees they charged the promoters to provide security and to use the convention center and the uncollected parking revenue from the city owned garages the promoters used for ticket holder pre paid parking.

Tax revenue that was supposedly collected by the race but not paid is revenue they never would have recieved to begin with. It's essentially a criminal issue at this point, but that's like saying the city lost $50 million last year because they didn't recieve their 6% of all heroin sales within the city. I'm sure all the resturants have long since paid their state and local sales and amusement taxes so the city can't tell me they didn't show revenue from the race. The city didn't run the race. How much do you think sunday's Ravens Playoff game is going to cost the city.?

I still feel for the several small businesses taht are the real losers'