City Council President Urges Cancellation of Baltimore Grand Prix

[FlatOut]

Stickman, I think I now know why driving a messily 1.5 isn't local to you - The IRL dropped your local race to you at Naz which was 20 minutes away from you. But whatever...

You know where my "local" IC race is now? 20 hours away. It used to be 10 minutes or less from my house and I haven't moved before or after.
Is 20 hours local? No. But its my closest IC track/event.

I havent read in detail about Baltimore.... but where they thinking they were going to make a profit in the first year of a start up street race? I sure hope not.

[Nigel Red5]

Stickman, I think I now know why driving a messily 1.5 isn't local to you - The IRL dropped your local race to you at Naz which was 20 minutes away from you. But whatever...

You know where my "local" IC race is now? 20 hours away. It used to be 10 minutes or less from my house and I haven't moved before or after.
Is 20 hours local? No. But its my closest IC track/event.

I havent read in detail about Baltimore.... but where they thinking they were going to make a profit in the first year of a start up street race? I sure hope not.

My recollection was by year 4, however I assume everyone expected they had the financing and ability to land the sponsors necessary to at least pay the expenses to get it on the track to break even or even profitability. Without a true title sponsor, NO race on the schedule outside of indy is going to make their bills.

[Justhalc]

Stickman, I think I now know why driving a messily 1.5 isn't local to you - The IRL dropped your local race to you at Naz which was 20 minutes away from you. But whatever...

You know where my "local" IC race is now? 20 hours away. It used to be 10 minutes or less from my house and I haven't moved before or after.
Is 20 hours local? No. But its my closest IC track/event.

I havent read in detail about Baltimore.... but where they thinking they were going to make a profit in the first year of a start up street race? I sure hope not.

20 hours? Do you live in Australia?

[Nigel Red5]

Really??? For what... I know Baltimore for their sports teams Colts/Ravens & Orioles & for the crime dramas (HBO's The Wire + NBC's old show Homicide: Life on the Streets)

I'm not attempting to be mean, just being honest.

What World MAP do we want to be on?


The Star Spangled Banner
The Birthplace of American Railroads
One of the largest ports of immigration in America.
Johns Hopkins
r adams cowley shock trauma center, the prototype for trauma care world wide.

Most of us in this area are perfectly comfortable with where we are and have no need to be "on the world stage" Some of us just want a friggin race!!!

[SactoIndyFan]

Did you really just say that? You don't actually believe it, do you?

The mayor could wheel out a perpetual motion/time machine that cured cancer, was fueled by nuclear waste and pooped strawberry cupcakes with sprinkles out the exhaust pipe, but if even a penny of it was paid for by tax dollars, LOTS of people would complain. After all, if the mayor would just eliminate all taxes and dissolve government altogether, private enterprise and capitalism would have produced an even better perpetual motion/time machine that cures cancer, is fueled by nuclear waste and poops strawberry cupcakes with sprinkles out the exhaust pipe. It's a matter of principal and an article of faith for some.

Plus, nobody knows what the real, honest figures are, at least not yet, so people's positions are informed more by their preconceived philosophy than real-world facts. For another, you really think the actual best interests of Baltimore's citizens have more to do with the council president's or the mayor's stance than local politics and rivalries? Where do you live, Disneyland?

No one would be objecting... Give me a break.

Yes I do, thank you very much. My main job is working in a govt program by law that has to break even every year, or I have to cut. Plus, I work in college athletics on the side. If you don't have the funds, you have to cut back. But thank you for dismissing my opinion, especially since I DO have a government degree and have spent years analyzing state and local governments

[JimmyB10]

Yes I do, thank you very much. My main job is working in a govt program by law that has to break even every year, or I have to cut. Plus, I work in college athletics on the side. If you don't have the funds, you have to cut back. But thank you for dismissing my opinion, especially since I DO have a government degree and have spent years analyzing state and local governments

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as merely snide and dismissive. Apparently I was not as clear as I had hoped. The part I was questioning was,

"If they (the city) were (bringing in that much revenue from hotels, etc. to offset its costs for hosting), nobody would be objecting to it."

Just that one statement. I'm not being sarcastic; do you really believe that if the event were a resounding financial success, nobody would complain about the city spending money on it? Because it sounds like your reasoning is: "people are complaining, therefore it is not bringing in enough money" with the presumption that if it were okay, no one would complain.

[BrakeEarly]

Mid Ohio's management might not support your idea of Cleveland



Someone should remind this council president that his city's bars & restaurants, along with downtown hotels were jammed on a holiday weekend that usually finds a majority of them EMPTY. I'm sure the taxes from those establishments can also pump $$$ into Baltimore's "core issues"

Sadly, big city political pi$$ing matches always seem to creep into these temporary events.

The total tax revenue off of the 47 million dollar financial impact is just over 3 million of which the city only receives a small portion. That doesn't cover the cost of holding the event, much less pump $$$ into core issues.

Cities always tout financial impact numbers rather than financial impact on the city budget because the reality is that the beneficiaries of tax supported sporting events are private interests, not the city budget.

[BretEarl]

The one thing to remember is not to confuse the two issues.The cities financial situation has nothing to do with the race.If given time 3-5 years and ran properly this race could make them a little money and help out many of the businesses.The cities money problems are of their own makings and could only wish they had a debt that consisted of the amount the race ran up after only one year.I still say if cooler heads preveil they could be in the black in year three.

[BrakeEarly]

Plus, nobody knows what the real, honest figures are, at least not yet, so people's positions are informed more by their preconceived philosophy than real-world facts. For another, you really think the actual best interests of Baltimore's citizens have more to do with the council president's or the mayor's stance than local politics and rivalries? Where do you live, Disneyland?

No one would be objecting... Give me a break.

Wrong. The local tax rate in Baltimore is just a tad over 3%. That means the city received only generated about 1.5 million dollars in revenue from the total 47 million dollar estimated economic impact. The city spent 7 million getting just one street ready and was stiffed for nearly 3 million by the promoter.

[BretEarl]

It appears you up on the goings on locally and thats good.But doesnt repaving benefit all who use the surface.Also,was any of this money stimulus money from the fed or matching funds from the fed.Hey, I dont live their but trying the race1 year is very short sighted and its hard to put a value on how the race portrayed your city to the outside viewing public.If it leaves after 1 year I think it tells alot.

[The Stickman]

Stickman, I think I now know why driving a messily 1.5 isn't local to you - The IRL dropped your local race to you at Naz which was 20 minutes away from you. But whatever...

You know where my "local" IC race is now? 20 hours away. It used to be 10 minutes or less from my house and I haven't moved before or after.
Is 20 hours local? No. But its my closest IC track/event.

I havent read in detail about Baltimore.... but where they thinking they were going to make a profit in the first year of a start up street race? I sure hope not.

Uh wrong again. One the IRL didn't drop the race ISC closed the track. And second I'm not bitter or complain about such things. Keep in mind I would also travel 6 hours to Richmond and 14 to Nashville. BTW just because I did drive to those doesn't make them local either.

[ARROWZ46]

The total tax revenue off of the 47 million dollar financial impact is just over 3 million of which the city only receives a small portion. That doesn't cover the cost of holding the event, much less pump $$$ into core issues.

Cities always tout financial impact numbers rather than financial impact on the city budget because the reality is that the beneficiaries of tax supported sporting events are private interests, not the city budget.

I know what you are saying & I think we agree on the core issues, but remember the city gets $$$ from the state & fed for many projects. The state of Maryland needs big cities like Baltimore. The city needs both small & large corporate business to locate in their borders.

Special events & sports do stimulate the economy of the city & state, but also costs them as well. How much does the city have to spend during the MLB season when the Orioles are in town? How about the home games the NFL Ravens play? How much are those two Baltimore sports franchises COSTING & GAINING the city?? I'm guessing that the politician could make a case for BOTH sides???

The Baltimore GP can fall into the same category as the other college & pro sports events in the area. Positive & negative in terms of $$$ spent. JMO

[Team Canada]

I've had this discussion with a couple of city councilors in Edmonton. The local gov't has backed the race in the past, sometimes more than they wanted to, got a lot of heat from some of the citizens over it.
But, the council does recognize the amount of local money coming into town, but most of all, they recognize that they could not hire an advertising agency and pay for getting the name of Edmonton out there in the world stage. It was estimated that the 2010 race, featuring Helio freakout, generated over 75 million dollars in Edmonton mentions throughout the world. People now know where Edmonton is. Let's face it, this city is not regarded as a top 10 tourist destination, but we are within a couple of hours of the most beautiful scenery in North America, Jasper and Banff. Edmonton tourism did see a spike in people coming here last year.

How do you measure it? It's hard, but having a city council that realizes that the money is worthwhile to spend for helping put on the show does help.

[AFColt]

Good post, Mike. I still need to get out there for the race/an epic camping trip--it's on the bucket list.

[The Stickman]

I've had this discussion with a couple of city councilors in Edmonton. The local gov't has backed the race in the past, sometimes more than they wanted to, got a lot of heat from some of the citizens over it.
But, the council does recognize the amount of local money coming into town, but most of all, they recognize that they could not hire an advertising agency and pay for getting the name of Edmonton out there in the world stage. It was estimated that the 2010 race, featuring Helio freakout, generated over 75 million dollars in Edmonton mentions throughout the world. People now know where Edmonton is. Let's face it, this city is not regarded as a top 10 tourist destination, but we are within a couple of hours of the most beautiful scenery in North America, Jasper and Banff. Edmonton tourism did see a spike in people coming here last year.

How do you measure it? It's hard, but having a city council that realizes that the money is worthwhile to spend for helping put on the show does help.

That is quite the buzz isn't it. Basically 75mil in free advertising, but that being said one has to wonder how much that actaully brings into the city. Not sure anyone can accurately corelate that. But I am not sure one can know what not having it would mean either.

[Team Canada]

That is quite the buzz isn't it. Basically 75mil in free advertising, but that being said one has to wonder how much that actaully brings into the city. Not sure anyone can accurately corelate that. But I am not sure one can know what not having it would mean either.

Every city has a tourism and advertising budget, it is just a matter if the local gov't believes the race gets the name out and brings people in. Hard to measure. Travel Alberta has a 75 million budget for promoting Alberta tourism, from within the province to world wide. They even had a 1/2 page ad in the Long Beach race program, so they do see the value in enticing race fans to come here.

[ARROWZ46]

Good post, Mike. I still need to get out there for the race/an epic camping trip--it's on the bucket list.

You want to camp out in downtown Baltimore AFColt? You have quite an adventurous bucket list!

[milliesdad]

I know what you are saying & I think we agree on the core issues, but remember the city gets $$$ from the state & fed for many projects. The state of Maryland needs big cities like Baltimore. The city needs both small & large corporate business to locate in their borders.

Special events & sports do stimulate the economy of the city & state, but also costs them as well. How much does the city have to spend during the MLB season when the Orioles are in town? How about the home games the NFL Ravens play? How much are those two Baltimore sports franchises COSTING & GAINING the city?? I'm guessing that the politician could make a case for BOTH sides???

The Baltimore GP can fall into the same category as the other college & pro sports events in the area. Positive & negative in terms of $$$ spent. JMO

The city of Green Bay and Brown County complain about the police overtime on a regular basis for the Packers games. Yet the Packers bring in a lot of money into the city and county.

[Racewknd]

All I can say is I though it was a fantastic event, and I was there all 3 days....as were great crowds. I talked to some locals Sunday night and they thought it was a positive. A friend of mine is a detective in Baltimore and he said the police all thought it was the best thing to happen to the city in years.

I really hope it stays.

[ARROWZ46]

What World MAP do we want to be on?


The Star Spangled Banner Don't think the World cares about a USA anthem
The Birthplace of American Railroads RR's are all across the USA, so how many care WHERE they were born?
One of the largest ports of immigration in America. Most think Ellis Iland & that statue the French gave us Again if you are happy in your home country don't care where you can immigrate in USA
Johns Hopkins Minnesota might say the Mayo Clinic for their medical advancements? I've never had a child with heart issues so John Hopkins means zero to me or the world...
r adams cowley shock trauma center, the prototype for trauma care world wide. Only a doctor or someone in the medical field would put this on that world map...

Most of us in this area are perfectly comfortable with where we are and have no need to be "on the world stage" Some of us just want a friggin race!!!

I know you used a at the end of your post, but I will answer you seriously. Again I'm not being a jerk to proud Baltimore residents or fans! We AGREE on the race though

[AFColt]

You want to camp out in downtown Baltimore AFColt? You have quite an adventurous bucket list!

Lol, no I meant Edmonton. I don't think I'd survive a Baltimore camping trip.

[JimmyB10]

Wrong. The local tax rate in Baltimore is just a tad over 3%. That means the city received only generated about 1.5 million dollars in revenue from the total 47 million dollar estimated economic impact. The city spent 7 million getting just one street ready and was stiffed for nearly 3 million by the promoter.

Wrong? What part of my statement are you saying is wrong? That nobody knows what the real, honest figures are? I hope not, because there is great debate over the accuracy of a lot of these numbers,. The figures you are citing are only direct tax revenue (and you understate it by more than 10%) and direct expenditures. Moreover, the money spent preparing for the race was mostly Federal money ($5 million) that couldn't have been used for the services and benefits that many including the councilman say it would be better spent on. Once could complain that their own streets went unrepaired because of it, but that's a rather more narrow argument. The balance of the money came from the State of Maryland, though it was a loan so it will eventually have to be repaid. If the race is run properly and eventually goes into the black, it should easily be able to repay that. We'd expect the roads used for the course to still be in decent shape next year, so I don't think anywhere near that level of expenditure ($7 million) will be required for paving for future races.

Several have made the point that these events almost invariably lose money the first year, and in the case of the Baltimore GP, there are a number of lessons learned already that should improve the financial impact for both the city, state and the local economy in general. A mammoth traffic jam on Thursday of residents fleeing the city reportedly scare a lot of people from venturing into the city over the weekend, even though traffic wasn't bad then, and hurt downtown businesses not in the immediate race area. And the jacked up rates and 3-night minimum stay requirement of downtown hotels caused more visitors to choose hotels out near the airport.

Nobody has mentioned that in addition to the city's direct revenue, the State of Maryland also made an estimated $2 million in taxes from the race. You said total tax revenues were "just over" $3 million. According to the official figures, it was over $3.75 million.

Lots of things went wrong and lots of things could have been done better, and likely will be if the race gets a chance to return a second and third time. And if it does, I bet the numbers will be quite different.

And I hope you aren't saying that most of the comments here are not informed by people's preconceived attitude towards the issue one way or the other and not on the numbers or solid real-world facts. Which numbers one believes and what significance should be attached to them is usually influenced by people's attitude toward the issue going in.

All that being said, I believe in democracy and if the majority of the citizens of Baltimore don't want the race, so be it. Sure, lots of people aren't happy about it, but I don't think it's the case presently that more people are against it than are for it. Whatever happens, I hope there is a race again in Baltimore (and I WISH they would moved it from Labor Day weekend, so I could attend).

[ValDRx]

What World MAP do we want to be on?


The Star Spangled Banner
The Birthplace of American Railroads
One of the largest ports of immigration in America.
Johns Hopkins
r adams cowley shock trauma center, the prototype for trauma care world wide.

Most of us in this area are perfectly comfortable with where we are and have no need to be "on the world stage" Some of us just want a friggin race!!!

Count me in that pool. I admit to having no idea of the nitty gritty details on how much money was spent and made leading up to and over the three day race weekend. All I can honestly say is I have never, see fans, drivers, crewmembers and just people checking out/talking about the race so excited (While I've never been, I won't include Indy in this, because it's on a whole other level I'm sure). It was infectious listening to the interviews all weekend and watching the crews and drivers in the paddock spending so much time with the fans (while the delay Friday must have been frustrating, it was fantastic to see so many drivers available to fans, and the crews taking time to talk with fans, until they could get out on the track and get down to the real work).

I drove down each morning all three days, and in all honesty, even though I'm 20 minutes from the city, I was looking into getting a group together and getting a room in one of the hotels for the weekend, take the time to enjoy everything that's offered over the weekend.

Personally, the only thing I care about at this point with regards to the race is that the city accepts the bid from a promoter who has experience with these events and we can all see Baltimore remain on the schedule for next year.

[BrakeEarly]

Wrong? What part of my statement are you saying is wrong? That nobody knows what the real, honest figures are? I hope not, because there is great debate over the accuracy of a lot of these numbers,

There is great debate over the overall impact numbers with a swing of millions from the high to low estimates. Sure. But the City's percentage of that swing is very small and the total city revenue is known to be well short of break even for the city.

The figures you are citing are only direct tax revenue (and you understate it by more than 10%) and direct expenditures.

If I underestimated the direct local tax rate for Baltimore by 10%, what is the total tax rate? 26%???

Moreover, the money spent preparing for the race was mostly Federal money ($5 million) that couldn't have been used for the services and benefits that many including the councilman say it would be better spent on. Once could complain that their own streets went unrepaired because of it, but that's a rather more narrow argument. The balance of the money came from the State of Maryland, though it was a loan so it will eventually have to be repaid.

Ahhhh, the great political lie. Baltimore receives a 5 million dollar grant that has to be spent on major roadway renovation project, allocates 2+ million dollars of future revenue from state highway use funds, and spends 7 million repaving for the grand prix. But that was only HALF of the major road repaving completed last year toward which the major roadway specific money could have been allocated. The budget could have been reduced by the cost of the grand prix development and the equivalent amount could have been allocated to other areas of the budget.

Nobody has mentioned that in addition to the city's direct revenue, the State of Maryland also made an estimated $2 million in taxes from the race. You said total tax revenues were "just over" $3 million. According to the official figures, it was over $3.75 million.

Why would anybody mention the state tax receipts? The state doesn't share that income with the city and it doesn't help the city break even.

I said the tax revenues for the city were just over $3 million. That was assuming the high estimate of 47 million in economic impact, not the realistic impact of 25 million dollars. According to the report the city only gained $1.68 million in tax revenues attributable to the grand prix. I said nothing about the state revenue because it is extraneous to the city's budget and funding for the event. The city isn't going to break even with money that the state receives is it?


Think about what was promised by in 2008 by the promoter and the Mayor:
70 million dollars in economic impact to the city annually
Over 6 million in direct tax revenue annually
400 new full time jobs (The mayor actually claimed 2000 full time jobs on the Mayor's own website)
80K annual visitors from outside Maryland, 60K of which would be from outside the region as well.
3.5 million television viewers annually.

There may have been a lot of positive buzz from drivers and crew, but the numbers show that for the residents of the city the event was an overwhelming failure based on the original expectations. What's worse is that in Indycar circles, there is the heinous expectation that this event will actually GROW if allowed to continue. The reality is that events like this almost universally experience a DECREASE in attendance after the inaugural year. The largest attendance decreases come from the local attendees. It turns out that the surveys conducted at the track show 76% of attendees came from Maryland. The reality is that the Baltimore Grand Prix should expect the same significant percentage decreases that the USGP and MotoGP experienced in Indy. The first year the local residents show up to see the event and the next year they don't return.

[Supertuner]

Brakeearly,

IS the local sales tax the only tax you pay? What if you worked at the event? Did that person pay taxes on their income directly from their hours working the race? < Not a sales tax. What if you sold popcorn and made a profit? Thats taxed < Not a sales tax. Also, have seen airport, Hotel and taxi tax rates? <More than 3 percent.

Just like how most people pay around 40 percent of their total income on taxes when sales tax is usually less than 10 percent. < Becasue there is more than sales tax in play.

[Supertuner]

Brake early,
When the state recieves tax money what do they do with it? Often it is returned to the cities in other forms. And when one city shows the state how much they are making for them, they can demand more of those state funds. Same with the fed.

It's not a sum total loss with taxes to the state and fed.

[SEVista]

The state and the city should move to put the event into court receivership and contract out Andretti Promotions to take it over for the next four years. If they are swimming in red ink, that would buy time for the old promoter to pay down creditors and Andretti can use the existing infrastructure for the event and streamline it into profitability.

It doesn't need to go away entirely. In two years, the event can be in the black and 75% of creditors would be paid entirely. But the state and the city have to pave the way for it to happen and soon.

[Nigel Red5]

Except in the North East/Mid-Atlantic. If they can't continue in Baltimore, then IndyCar needs to get back to Pocono or something. Somewhere I can get to without getting on a plane. Watkins Glen is not feasible, without paying for a hotel. Baltimore is right on the Amtrak line.

The problem with the Glen is even hotels are sometimes an hour or more out from the track.

As has been said, there are far more taxes than just direct sales taxes.

local city beverage taxes, room taxes, admission taxes, we got em all around here.

http://business.marylandtaxes.com/ta...ns/methods.asp

[Nigel Red5]

I know you used a at the end of your post, but I will answer you seriously. Again I'm not being a jerk to proud Baltimore residents or fans! We AGREE on the race though

You might be suprized about what JHH (consistently ranked the #1 hospital and med school in the country and sometimes the world) means in the academic and medical communities but I think we are really talking about the sports and entertainment stage.

ALL of those things are opportunities for people to LEARN about Baltimore, when coming to Baltimore. Baltimore IS FAR more than the wire and Homicide. Isn't that the objective of large scale events like this? To promote tourism, business and future visits. Baltimore is also a foodie's heaven.

[Nigel Red5]

The state and the city should move to put the event into court receivership and contract out Andretti Promotions to take it over for the next four years. If they are swimming in red ink, that would buy time for the old promoter to pay down creditors and Andretti can use the existing infrastructure for the event and streamline it into profitability.

It doesn't need to go away entirely. In two years, the event can be in the black and 75% of creditors would be paid entirely. But the state and the city have to pave the way for it to happen and soon.

My understanding is both of the first two ARE in motion.The courts froze the business and personal assets of BRD and its board weeks ago.