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Thread: This year, despite it all, we do need to remind fans that we're faster

  1. #571
    Under no definition, by any governing body or dictionary, does 'being faster' have anything to do with 'doing it more often'.

    World Recrods for being faster, higher or stronger don't care about 'how often'

    WHen kids argue about which car is faster, no one cares how often they actually get driven. The Bugatti Veyron supersport is the fastest production car in the world, the reality is there are only a handful of them in existence and each one probably only ever gets driven a few times a year, and almost never at anything approaching their top speed. To be honest, other than VW's test drivers, and the one time on Top Gear, it's probably never been driven at top speed. But it doesn't matter, because it only had to do it once to break the record.

    Thrust SSC is the fastest land vehicle in existence (I refuse to call it a 'car'). It only ever took one attempt at the record, broke it, and has has been sitting in a museum ever since. Until someone else comes along that can break the record, it still The Fastest.

    No reasonable person is ever going to accept any kind of definition that tries to redefine faster to mean 'more often'. Nascar could have two races every week of the year, for 104 races. If the fastest they reach all year is 192 mph, that's it. The 103 times the go somewhere between 90 and 180 are irrelevant for the point of discussing 'fastest'. If another series races on once all year, and goes 193 mph, then they are faster and that is the end of that.

    Now if NASCAR's were faster than Indycar's on some kind of tracks, then that would be relevant. But Indycar's fastest speed will be SIGNIFICANTLY faster on all three types of tracks that they both race on (super speedway, oval and road), and they would be faster on street's as well. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Indycar's end up being faster on the faster street courses than NASCAR are at Sears Point... and possibly even Martinsville, if you want to use qualifying lap speeds as the reference mark. (considering pole last year for St Pete. was 104.5mph, it almost certainly will be)

    The reality is, even without the above, it all boils down to one cold hard fact. Who's fastest official lap (race or qualifying) turned all year will be faster... NASCAR's or Indycar's? barring an extremely unlucky turn of weather for Indycar, I think the result is obvious.

  2. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    It compares average lap speeds on courses of different configurations.
    Then take it up with IC.... Your going to go out in the public and claim your faster when your not.
    BUT just put a (*) there and write a big disclaimer for the public to chew on so you can still claim your faster.
    If you want to tell the public, well yeah, if it was like this, were faster. Or if was changed like this, were faster - that will go over real well. And even then it would be dishonest.

    I didn't make the schedule with three ovals on it, sorry. Your claim being faster just isn't true.

    So now you say, based on the races they race, on the exact same weekend that, that isn't fair. Whatever

    Funny, when it used to be about TV ratings, the defenders never said, "well its the track", now its not fair to compare.
    Bottom line, head to head weekends, NASCAR is faster, period. And believe me, I'm no NASCAR fan so dont even go that route.

  3. #573
    Paradoxically Sublime Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatOut View Post
    Your claim being faster just isn't true.
    Yes it is. Faster head-to-head, faster on ovals, faster absolutely. Any track, any day. By a lot. I know it, and you know it.

    So now you say, based on the races they race, on the exact same weekend that, that isn't fair.
    No I didn't. It's stupid, but fair's got nothing to do with it

    What part of 47 mph faster don't you get?
    "Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
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  4. #574
    Paradoxically Sublime Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenelopePitstop View Post
    From post #50 "Yes, head to head Indycars are faster."
    From post #54 "Head to head, as I've already stated, Indycars are faster."
    From post #91 "Indycars that are capable of turning laps in the 215 range"
    From post #94 "the (Indy)cars are faster by nature"
    From post #102 "Indycars can go faster"
    From post #109 "In a direct comparison on the same track, I would expect the Indycar to be faster."
    From post #111 "On paper the Indycar is faster."
    From post #121 "Indycars are faster in a direct comparison."
    From post #150 "We agree that Indycars are capable of going faster on the same track."
    From post #152 "I've been saying that the whole time."
    From post #160 "I agree with every point you make about relative speed differences between both series."

  5. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Depends on what your definition of 'faster' is
    My definition says that 180mph is faster than 105mph.

    What does your definition say about this?

  6. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Yep. I also said that on Race Day, INDYCAR underperforms because they race more often at slower speeds than NASCAR. Shame on them.

  7. #577
    Paradoxically Sublime Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenelopePitstop View Post
    Yep. I also said that on Race Day, INDYCAR underperforms because they race more often at slower speeds than NASCAR. Shame on them.
    So you were mostly right. Just a little confused on that last part

  8. #578
    Paradoxically Sublime Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenelopePitstop View Post
    My definition says that 180mph is faster than 105mph.

    What does your definition say about this?
    It says they don't compare because one is an apple and the other an orange.

  9. #579
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    "This year, despite it all, we do need to remind fans that we're faster"

    The NHRA would also disagree.
    Keep twisting T-13.

    The bottom line, no way, shape or form will IC come out with a campaign your suggesting, no way.

    So argue away. All one with any sort of logic would look week to week in comparison... NASCAR is going faster. To the casual that your trying to reach with this "we are faster lunacy" is not going to go to the lengths of determining, for them selves, whos faster.

    Go with this faster campaign. Casual fan is watching NASCAR in Texas or Daytona, they flick over to see this faster thing (that is if they can even find the channel an IC race is on), and see cars turning right and left at 50 mph sometimes hitting 150. You didn't convince anyone. In order to make this "faster" thing believable, it has to be simple to grasp, can't be done when compared head to head to the casual.

    But go on and rant on how IC is so much better and faster. Nobody will buy it.

    NOW. If you want to talk about a new IC car, turbos, and being on the cusp of breaking, long standing, OW records at many ovals, including Indy, THEN you have a possible leg to stand on, in this, "we are faster" non sense. But that isn't even happening either.

  10. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    It says they don't compare because one is an apple and the other an orange.
    You mean how NASCAR is sucking on oranges and IC is stuck sucking lemons? Again, take that up with IC.

  11. #581
    Paradoxically Sublime Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatOut View Post
    "This year, despite it all, we do need to remind fans that we're faster"

    The NHRA would also disagree.
    NHRA is faster - but they don't run ovals.

    In order to make this "faster" thing believable, it has to be simple to grasp, can't be done when compared head to head to the casual.
    IndyCar is faster head-to-head. And on average, comparing similar tracks. And absolutely faster, because Cup cars never go as fast as IndyCars do - ever.

    IndyCars would lap a Cup car every five to ten laps, on most tracks, and finish 10 laps ahead.

    Pretty simple.

    Heck, maybe even 20 or 30 laps. Kind of amazing
    Last edited by Turn13; 03-21-2012 at 11:41 PM.

  12. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    NHRA is faster - but they don't run ovals.
    And IC doesn't race in a straight line, or they'd be toast, and not "faster". Knowing that, perhaps the thread starter wants to change the title to "faster then NASCAR", but you'd still be wrong.
    Were faster then some, but not to others... that will go over real well in the media.

    IndyCar is faster head-to-head. And on average, comparing similar tracks. And absolutely faster, because Cup cars never go as fast as IndyCars do - ever.
    Because they have re-stricter plates. Another * in your claim that IC is faster.
    This faster thing is such non-sense. Faster then who? Is your aim to try and convince the general public that your faster then NASCAR? How desperate would that look.
    The NHRA media and community would have a great laugh, a sure way to back fire in IC's face.

    IndyCars would lap a Cup car every five to ten laps, on most tracks, and finish 10 laps ahead.

    Pretty simple.
    Yet IC wants to do nothing, other then go a tick quicker then last years old cars. Breath taking. And even last year or the year before when there were more ovals (increasing the chances of being faster on those weekends compared to NASCAR, nobody cared, ratings prove that.

    Wanna take a bet that TV ratings will be lower then last year in St. Pete? I will. Nobody cares if the cars are faster or not.

  13. #583
    Ellis/ IndyCar Dead to Me Swaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatOut View Post
    Wanna take a bet that TV ratings will be lower then last year in St. Pete? I will. Nobody cares if the cars are faster or not.
    I'm thinking about taking that bet but not sure yet. Just looked up last year's St. Pete rating and it drew an overnight of 1.4 (finished at 1.2 I believe) which is actually really good for this series. I think at this point Randy would be happy if he could draw a 1.2 or above again at St. Pete

    It is some of the other races on NBC Sports Network that he has to worry about.
    **** This Sport

  14. #584
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    What I find amazing is some around here just will do everything to be right, even know it does nothing to build IC, in their never ending ways to be right with their own selves behind a screen.

    So lets do it your way T-13. Lets trot out to all the media that IC is faster. How are you going to tell that to the media, for them to speak to the public of your claim?
    "Ummmm... welll, some weekends were faster, some weekends on an road course we're slower, some times when we are on a street course, we're slower, BUT a couple of times a year were faster, heres how!"

    Good luck on that. But go ahead with that snobbery attitude that IC is better or faster, see how far that gets the series in terms of more viewership.

    Sh**, I can just hear Paul Page, live on ESPN saying, "I'm reading that IC PR is saying they are faster, a football field a second... when we and the NHRA are pushing 330+ mph" while chuckling with Mike Dunn.

    Its got fail written all over it.
    Hell F1 is even faster on road courses. So who is fastest.... it isn't IC. Get over it.

  15. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swaze View Post
    I'm thinking about taking that bet but not sure yet. Just looked up last year's St. Pete rating and it drew an overnight of 1.4 (finished at 1.2 I believe) which is actually really good for this series. I think at this point Randy would be happy if he could draw a 1.2 or above again at St. Pete

    It is some of the other races on NBC Sports Network that he has to worry about.
    OK, lets do it this way. Lets take the first three races, the first three before Indy. I'll bet you ratings, on average of those three, compared to last year, will be lower. Money goes to Brians Wish.

    You in?

  16. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swaze View Post
    I'm thinking about taking that bet but not sure yet. Just looked up last year's St. Pete rating and it drew an overnight of 1.4
    We are not talking about overnights. We are not talking about the top markets, we are talking about the last, US rating. Not in certain states, not over nights. RAW, end of the day numbers that come out mid week, not overnights, not finals in certain cities. So take that smirk of your avatar.

    Final numbers. Jesus, I swear you and JW are buddies.

    Watch the finals. And we all now, IC drops from finals, how do I know? Ask Use2know.

  17. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatOut View Post
    We are not talking about overnights. We are not talking about the top markets, we are talking about the last, US rating. Not in certain states, not over nights. RAW, end of the day numbers that come out mid week, not overnights, not finals in certain cities. So take that smirk of your avatar.

    Final numbers. Jesus, I swear you and JW are buddies.

    Watch the finals. And we all now, IC drops from finals, how do I know? Ask Use2know.
    But I've watched this for over 15 years... I'm a noob.

    Kinda like when a certain group said LV pulled big numbers.... it wasn't for the race, it was everyone tuning in to see the result of an OW crash.

    BOTTOM LINE: I want IC to be king. But those that are speaking do not know what the peak of CART was in terms of sponsorship, ratings and growth. And dont give me no BS about how it failed. Some son of a mother decided to re-write OW, in how he thought it should be. Worked out well, didn't it.

    I know all those IRL teams, drivers and sponsors are still knee deep in IC. Nope.
    the only knee deep are your Penskes and Gannasis. CART teams. Some will never grasp.

  18. #588
    Paradoxically Sublime Turn13's Avatar
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    This is a tough year to be measuring it, with new engines and chassis. How fast do you think IndyCar will be at Fontana?

  19. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    It says they don't compare because one is an apple and the other an orange.
    So if Indycars are racing at 180mph while NASCAR is racing at 105mph you will say that it is inconclusive?

    What utter nonsense. But consistent with your cheerleader mentality.

    Product vs. product. Faster vs slower. See you on race day. INDYCAR will be faster in just two short months.

  20. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    This is a tough year to be measuring it, with new engines and chassis. How fast do you think IndyCar will be at Fontana?
    That will be one of the very few times this year when INDYCAR will be racing faster than NASCAR.

    INDYCAR: We're faster 7/36 weekends in 2012!

  21. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenelopePitstop View Post
    So if Indycars are racing at 180mph while NASCAR is racing at 105mph you will say that it is inconclusive?

    What utter nonsense. But consistent with your cheerleader mentality.

    Product vs. product. Faster vs slower. See you on race day. INDYCAR will be faster in just two short months.

    Wouldn't that be extremely dangerous?

  22. #592
    Registered User MoparsRule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    Because he wants the specs opened up and some records set.

    I can relate

    Top 10 race speeds from 2011, IndyCar / NASCAR combined:

    206.693 IndyCar
    181.649 IndyCar
    174.039 IndyCar
    170.265 IndyCar

    159.491 Cup
    156.261 Cup
    153.029 Cup
    152.705 Cup
    150.898 Cup
    150.849 Cup


    NASCAR's top race speed is a whopping 47 mph slower.

    If you think NASCAR's faster, I guess you just have to deny that the top part of the list exists
    Well now that's an extremely inconvenient truth...

  23. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by MoparsRule View Post
    Well now that's an extremely inconvenient truth...
    Not inconvenient at all. There will be 7 weekends out of 36 in 2012 that the INDYCAR product will actually be faster than the NASCAR product.

    Before 2005 nobody had to do any "reminding" of which series had the faster product - every IRL race was faster than NASCAR. That is nowhere near the truth in 2012 where only 7/17 INDYCAR races will be faster than the competition on Race Day.

  24. #594
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    Because they have re-stricter plates. Another * in your claim that IC is faster.
    And IndyCars have their own re-stricter (sic) plates...boost limits, rpm limits....the rules is the rules.

    There will be 7 weekends out of 36 in 2012 that the INDYCAR product will actually be faster than the NASCAR product.
    Doesn't it only take 1 time of being 'faster' to be 'faster product'?
    Only takes 1 lap to set a new lap record, not 7 or 36.
    (the exception being world speed records, which require two runs, one in each direction).



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  25. #595
    Registered User MoparsRule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenelopePitstop View Post
    Not inconvenient at all. There will be 7 weekends out of 36 in 2012 that the INDYCAR product will actually be faster than the NASCAR product.

    Before 2005 nobody had to do any "reminding" of which series had the faster product - every IRL race was faster than NASCAR. That is nowhere near the truth in 2012 where only 7/17 INDYCAR races will be faster than the competition on Race Day.
    And when & where are these combined races to be held?

  26. #596
    Registered User MoparsRule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakester View Post
    Doesn't it only take 1 time of being 'faster' to be 'faster product'?
    Yet another inconvenient truth.

  27. #597
    Paradoxically Sublime Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenelopePitstop View Post
    My definition says that 180mph is faster than 105mph.

    What does your definition say about this?
    My definition says the fastest series sets the fastest time. It also says that occasionally a little faster is not the same as way more fastEST

  28. #598
    . . . . . . . . . 9rows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by from twitter
    Panther Racing (@PantherRacing)
    3/22/12 12:07 PM
    Question: Why did you choose #IndyCar over NASCAR and other series? @JRHildebrand: "That's easy, because IndyCars are the fastest cars."
    ....pffft. whatever JR. what the hell does a current IndyCar driver know about speed anyway.


  29. #599
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    This thread is like the Jam of the Month Club of TF. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
    No man can cause more grief than that one clinging blindly to the vices of his ancestors. - William Faulker

  30. #600
    Registered User MoparsRule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9rows View Post
    Panther Racing (@PantherRacing)
    3/22/12 12:07 PM
    Question: Why did you choose #IndyCar over NASCAR and other series? @JRHildebrand: "That's easy, because IndyCars are the fastest cars."

    ....pffft. whatever JR. what the hell does a current IndyCar driver know about speed anyway.

    Quite timely...

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