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Thread: What does NASCAR have that IndyCar doesn’t?

  1. #31
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    About 4 million fans.
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  2. #32
    Is Bat Boy KevMcNJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    About 4 million fans.
    What happened to the other 71 million?
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  3. #33
    Cool cats! Sweaty Teddy's Avatar
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    WARNING: I'm about to present a rather esoteric theory. If you dont know what "esoteric" means, you might want to just skip this. I'm also going to mention The Split. I am doing so for historic context and not passing judgement.

    More than anything else listed here so far, what NASCAR has that IndyCar had, lost and can never get back is a perceived sense of continuity, or in other words, what I like to call "The 6 Degrees of Johnny Mantz".

    For those of you not familiar with NASCAR history, Johnny Mantz won the first Southern 500 back in 1950. You can take 2011 Daytona 500 winner Trevor Bayne and trace back an uninterrupted path of competitors all the way to Mr. Mantz. Heck, it is easy to do in NASCAR; Trevor Bayne to Jeff Gordon to Richard Petty to Lee Petty to Johnny Mantz. Richard Petty is the Kevin Bacon, but you get my point.

    Open wheel used to have a continuum that would put NASCAR to shame. With or without the Indy 500 there was a path from Jacques Villeneuve all the way back to Barney Oldfield, Ray Harroum, or any of the early barnstormers, with A.J. Foyt being the Kevin Bacon in this scenario. While it is possible that the continuum continues to 2012, in terms of who were the"household names", the continuum, at least as it is perceived, was broken by The Split; when the majority of the stars of the time went with the big teams to CART and the IRL started on its own path. Years later we have reunification, but The Split did something that two world wars couldn't; it broke the continuum. All the combining of record books under the name "American Open Wheel" won't fix this. Not when you have a two-time champion (Alex Zanardi) who never competed in the 500.

    (Okay, I typed too much to bail out now. I realize that Arie Luyendyk won both a pre-split and a post-split Indy 500. I don't know that the general public knows this or cares. That is my point.)
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  4. #34
    Insider indyracefan's Avatar
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    Oh goody, another 'why NASCAR is better than IndyCar' thread.

    Although for the most part I share his opinion.
    My first Indy 500 was 1973, haven't missed one since 1981. To date I have attended 36 Indy 500's, and probably 100 or so other IndyCar races (CART & IRL).

  5. #35
    Upsetter mdkiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11rowsof3 View Post
    Fans that aren't psychotic, jealous, bitter, misguided losers that live in their mom's basement?
    So what are you trying to say?

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  6. #36
    Registered User Cosworth's Avatar
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    Multi-Billion dollar TV contract which put races in the black before a ticket is sold.
    Long term Blue chip sponsors
    consistent long term participants
    Multi Billion dollar war chest
    TV saturation. Speed, Fox, NBC ABC
    For a start
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    Registered User Djski442's Avatar
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    Fans that aren't obsessed with the other racing series/inferiority complex.

  8. #38
    The Ladder Broke in 74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin99 View Post
    Boogety, boogety, boogety....
    I fail to see this as a bad thing
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djski442 View Post
    Fans that aren't obsessed with the other racing series/inferiority complex.
    ....which has been on display in this thread in embarrassing fashion.
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  10. #40
    Registered User Indyknut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweaty Teddy View Post
    WARNING: I'm about to present a rather esoteric theory. If you dont know what "esoteric" means, you might want to just skip this. I'm also going to mention The Split. I am doing so for historic context and not passing judgement.

    More than anything else listed here so far, what NASCAR has that IndyCar had, lost and can never get back is a perceived sense of continuity, or in other words, what I like to call "The 6 Degrees of Johnny Mantz".

    For those of you not familiar with NASCAR history, Johnny Mantz won the first Southern 500 back in 1950. You can take 2011 Daytona 500 winner Trevor Bayne and trace back an uninterrupted path of competitors all the way to Mr. Mantz. Heck, it is easy to do in NASCAR; Trevor Bayne to Jeff Gordon to Richard Petty to Lee Petty to Johnny Mantz. Richard Petty is the Kevin Bacon, but you get my point.

    Open wheel used to have a continuum that would put NASCAR to shame. With or without the Indy 500 there was a path from Jacques Villeneuve all the way back to Barney Oldfield, Ray Harroum, or any of the early barnstormers, with A.J. Foyt being the Kevin Bacon in this scenario. While it is possible that the continuum continues to 2012, in terms of who were the"household names", the continuum, at least as it is perceived, was broken by The Split; when the majority of the stars of the time went with the big teams to CART and the IRL started on its own path. Years later we have reunification, but The Split did something that two world wars couldn't; it broke the continuum. All the combining of record books under the name "American Open Wheel" won't fix this. Not when you have a two-time champion (Alex Zanardi) who never competed in the 500.

    (Okay, I typed too much to bail out now. I realize that Arie Luyendyk won both a pre-split and a post-split Indy 500. I don't know that the general public knows this or cares. That is my point.)
    Unfortunately, the "6 degrees of Johnny Mantz" extends into the fanbase and corporate sponsor awareness of the Indycar racing as a whole.

    Unlike other sports which have seen declines in attendance due to "strikes", Indy car has never recovered like baseball or hockey for the simple reason that those discontinuances of play of those sports lasted only a year at best.
    Indy car racing's version of a strike lasted 11 years!

    There has been so much lost. A generation of youngsters growing up learning that that series was no good but this series was better. Fan confusion. Sponsor confusion and dissatisfaction. Driver confusion along with no direct connection between lower rung racing and the pinnacle of OW racing (whatever that was for 11 years). An us vs. them environment created in an existing fanbase of oval race fans vs. those in favor of a variety of racing circuits.

    There has been so much lost that can't be regained it would seem almost insurmountable to rebuild this. Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to even begin to compare OW racing in this country to NASCAR. They're 2 totally different products. I also don't think it's a good idea to compare OW now vs what was 20 years ago. Different times and different places. My thoughts are on rebuilding the fanbase from scratch while bringing along those that wish to come along.

  11. #41
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweaty Teddy View Post
    More than anything else listed here so far, what NASCAR has that IndyCar had, lost and can never get back is a perceived sense of continuity, or in other words, what I like to call "The 6 Degrees of Johnny Mantz".

    ...


    (Okay, I typed too much to bail out now. I realize that Arie Luyendyk won both a pre-split and a post-split Indy 500. I don't know that the general public knows this or cares. That is my point.)
    You make a good point. Without making judgments for or against either "side", the split created a myriad of discontinuities, in a number of ways.

    The better news, though, is I don't think it was as much of an absolute break, as you also seem to have ultimately concluded as well with the Arie thing. There's been a ton of healing, so I would hope most fans can find their way back. For those that can't, however, there's always the fact that the most important fans are new fans. It's been almost a generation.

    All along, despite all the broken threads, there's always been a few thin ones that connect today's IndyCar with the world's fastest, most popular and exciting open wheel series on ovals, with the 100-year traditions and heritage of the Indianapolis 500 Mile International Sweepstakes That's always worth recommending to a friend.
    Last edited by Turn13; 01-22-2012 at 08:42 AM.

  12. #42
    Insider 11rowsof3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11rowsof3 View Post
    Fans that aren't psychotic, jealous, bitter, misguided losers that live in their mom's basement?
    Someone PM'd me, sorry - I forgot to add a smiley face. I am an INDYCAR fan, so I was trying to be lighthearted about this thread which is totally unnecessary I think...

    This sort of thread just makes our fan base look hypocritical. That part is not a joke. Some fans around here rip on NASCAR having slow, ugly, spec cars with bad drivers. It's laughable because INDYCAR has relativity slower cars (for the weight and downforce they create), an ugly looking Dallara (I happen to like the new COT with the rounded front and new spoiler), more spec-ier cars and I'm not so sure the drivers of INDYCAR are that much better than NASCAR, are you?

    That's all. I love the Indy 500 first and foremost, but let's get our series fixed before ripping on another form of racing. That is all.
    Every race I run in is in preparation for the Indianapolis 500. Indy is the most important thing in my life. It is what I live for. - Al Unser Jr.

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  13. #43
    Same old, same old.

    - Conspiracy theories.
    - Petty jealousy. (no pun intended)
    - Condesention.
    - Blaming it all on "the split" (a non-event)

    NASCAR could die out tommorrow and the effect on Indy Car would be unnoticable.

  14. #44
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamC View Post
    Same old, same old.

    - Conspiracy theories.
    - Petty jealousy. (no pun intended)
    - Condesention.
    - Blaming it all on "the split" (a non-event)

    NASCAR could die out tommorrow and the effect on Indy Car would be unnoticable.
    You mean condescension? Not seeing it

    I think it would be noticeable, but it's so unrealistic it's moot.

    I don't see anything wrong with the opening question, or most of the points made thereto. What's so "jealous" or "envious" about noting differences, either factual or subjective? If enough people feel that way, that's what it is.

    Seems like people are free to discuss the differences between ovals and roads within IndyCar to no end, but any mere mention of NASCAR must be "bashing". I don't see what's so odd about discussing the differences between a successful series and a less so one, if one is interested in the sport at all.

    I've seen and heard both F1 and NASCAR fans (and other open wheel fans) discuss IndyCar in similar ways. I didn't see anything wrong with it, usually, although they sometimes have the same sort of perspectives we do here based on their preference and experience. And I haven't seen any "conspiracy theories" expressed here so far

  15. #45
    Is Bat Boy KevMcNJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djski442 View Post
    Fans that aren't obsessed with the other racing series/inferiority complex.
    Not obsessed with other series'? Many are cluless about any other series.

    Its been a topic of conversation on the radio about how tracks are wondering how they are going to sell tickets for NAtionwide & truck races this year with most of the name drivers in the Sunday series drastically cutting back or completely eliminating their side projecs

  16. #46
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11rowsof3 View Post
    Some fans around here rip on NASCAR having slow, ugly, spec cars with bad drivers. It's laughable because INDYCAR has relativity slower cars (for the weight and downforce they create), an ugly looking Dallara (I happen to like the new COT with the rounded front and new spoiler), more spec-ier cars and I'm not so sure the drivers of INDYCAR are that much better than NASCAR, are you?
    Good points I think NASCAR definitely gets the pick of the litter, if they want it, but on the other hand Danica was probably not the most talented driver IndyCar had, either.

    I would avoid most direct comparisons until I saw how their best did in an IndyCar before making too broad a claim

    As for your other points, you're right, and that's one of the good things about a topic like this, is it can open eyes and challenge biases on both sides. I'd say IndyCars are faster, but not by that much right now; they seem to require more of an athletic challenge, and certainly more varied driving skills, though NASCAR no doubt requires much more oval-based tire management stuff specific to NASCAR.

    The DW12 may be more spec than a CoT, but wouldn't that make it more stock than the stock car series ? At any rate, it's still a single-seater, and faster on any track than a CoT is. Thanks in part to the wings, sure, but then again it's the fenders and bumpers and a roof over your head that makes the CoT more friendly for rubbin'

    When it comes to my racing, I've always enjoyed the speed more than the contact.

  17. #47
    The biggest thing that Nascar does not have is a schedule comprised of races that cost more than they return.

  18. #48
    Q: What does Nascar have that Indycar doesn't?
    A: A vastly superior product.

    It's the NFL vs Arena football.
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  19. #49
    Is Bat Boy KevMcNJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by don7031 View Post
    Q: What does Nascar have that Indycar doesn't?
    A: A vastly superior product.

    It's the NFL vs Arena football.
    Matter of opinion.

    But I wouldnt put NASCAR or IndyCar at the top of that list right now.

    Id kill to have a good half mile dirt track that pulled in 30 sprints every weekend nearby

  20. #50
    Reset your fuel,Go Go Go Z28's Avatar
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    Well what INDYCAR has is a too big and loud bunch of jealous losers who seem to think putting down NASCAR helps make INDYCAR one bit more popular. What this hack blogger (and much of what he's writing here he no doubt has contributed to TF on a regular basis) does is reinforce those who don't like INDYCAR by insulting those who like NASCAR. Brilliant.
    "You can't arrest those guys, they're folk heroes"
    "They're criminals"
    "Well most folk heroes started out as criminals"

  21. #51
    Again, why compare NASCAR to another form of the sport, in the vein of "we are better, if only the unwashed masses got it." Rather, why not see what NASCAR did well that put it (long before the so-called "split" ) well ahead of Indy Car, and emulate it. The only answer is pure jealousy.

    Indy Car is what it is, as it is, where it is. It did not decline because NASCAR gained, nor did NASCAR grow at its expense. Rather, NASCAR grew the pie of auto racing fans at the expense, if of anything, of non-motor sports, and Indy Car has declined from self-inflicted wounds.

    Indy Car's minority of jealous fans are like my perception of soccer fans. Its a "beautiful sport" and full of "stategy" if ony you were not such an oaf, you would see that is the typical soccerspew, generally followed by some crap about the NFL.

    The sport goes there at its peril.

    Or it can listen to the Market, the only perfect thing on earth. It is speaking with a clear voice, as it does to those wise enough to hear it.

  22. #52
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z28 View Post
    Well what INDYCAR has is a too big and loud bunch of jealous losers who seem to think putting down NASCAR helps make INDYCAR one bit more popular. What this hack blogger (and much of what he's writing here he no doubt has contributed to TF on a regular basis) does is reinforce those who don't like INDYCAR by insulting those who like NASCAR. Brilliant.
    What was insulting, offensive or jealous?

  23. #53
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamC View Post
    Again, why compare NASCAR to another form of the sport, in the vein of "we are better, if only the unwashed masses got it."
    You're reading into (and stating) things that aren't there or weren't said.

    IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by SamC View Post
    Or it can listen to the Market, the only perfect thing on earth. It is speaking with a clear voice, as it does to those wise enough to hear it.
    Markets based on "popularity" can be as irrational as the voting public anywhere else Look at the music industry

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by wbr View Post
    Much more, that was a good start. We have lost the most well known driver for the last 7 years to NASCAR. Our newest crop of "American drivers" have spent years in Europe racing or have foreign sounding last names. Not what the typical fan expects from a "blue collar racer".

    Before you say the names really mean nothing; remember this is marketing- not facts. The sound of names mean everything in marketing. Would you buy "Butt Fresh" toothpaste or "Rotten brand fried chicken" I'd think not. Would Simona have more fans if she had changed her name to Nicole West? Would Pippa be more popular as Ashely Jones? Heck yes they would. Thats not fair but its just how it is.

    I'm a fan of the sport and when the visor drops and the cars take the green it doesn't matter to me what flag the driver prefers or how native his name sounds. But I am not the casual t-shirt buying one race a year and watch the rest on tv race fan.
    The American thing is not the problem. Look at other sports... Lindsey Vonn is an American, is the best female Alpine skier in the world... but you can't see her races (except for once every 4 years at the Olympics) because the sport doesn't have a TV deal here. If Americans winning were the only thing that mattered, then this sport should be on a major network here in the US. And it's not like people in the US don't ski.

    The NBA is doing okay and nowadays it seems like half the players are foreigners.

    Mario Andretti is considered one of the greatest "American" drivers of all time yet he was born in Italy and has a very "non-American" sounding name. You're barking up the wrong tree.

  25. #55
    Registered User Nigel Red5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post
    About 4 million fans.
    ...that actually show up at the Race track when there is a race in town.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BSJracing View Post
    A skilled marketing department
    Although this is the "business" forum it doesn't preclude those with little understanding of business from posting.

    Anyone with any marketing training knows you have to have a product to sell (promote) and that you can't sell a product customers don't want.

    There's simply no way American racing fans will buy marginally talented Venezuelan ride buyer drivers. Unpromotable.

    Any number of token foreign women drivers will not change this.

    aintgonnahappen.com

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan View Post
    The American thing is not the problem.
    Fantasy is not a viable business plan.

    Nor is head in sand.

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevMcNJ View Post
    Matter of opinion.

    But I wouldnt put NASCAR or IndyCar at the top of that list right now.

    Id kill to have a good half mile dirt track that pulled in 30 sprints every weekend nearby
    I like your view but would point out that there are drivers in NASCAR that could run competitively on your favorite track and there aren't in Indycar. Nor can indycar drivers run competitively in NASCAR or in Formula One. It's nice that somebody gives these boys and girls a chance, but it doesn't draw much fan interest, as fans know who the best are. Fans root for drivers, not cars.

  29. #59
    Paradoxically Sublime Fool Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    There's simply no way American racing fans will buy marginally talented Venezuelan ride buyer drivers. Unpromotable.
    I don't watch IndyCar for the marginally talented Venezuelan ride buyer drivers. There's plenty about the sport I appreciate without even noticing the Venezuelans

    On the other hand, there's nothing compelling to me about slower, fendered cars logjammed together (or in tandem). Not knocking it, just my perspective. But even I enjoy it a bit more if I happen to watch and a former IndyCar driver or Hoosier does well. Or when they race on bricks

    I do think American fans, racing or not, can appreciate the world's fastest, most exciting and popular open wheel series on ovals, especially when it includes the Indianapolis 500. The fact is, more of them turn out for that more often than they do for the Chili Bowl or Knoxville.

    But it would be nice to have more of both crowds on board. I think the series has invested some in that, too.
    Last edited by Turn13; 01-22-2012 at 02:28 PM.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turn13 View Post

    1. On the other hand, there's nothing compelling to me about slower, fendered cars logjammed together (or in tandem).

    2. The fact is, more of them turn out for that more often than they do for the Chili Bowl or Knoxville.
    1. You can watch the other 32 Cup races a year and never see that sort of "logjammed" racing that is so unappealing. Whether you like it or not, most of American race fans do find whatever NASCAR is doing 'compelling'. So they must be doing some pretty good things to have the market so relishing their product on a weekly and yearly basis.

    2. I would hope that the supposed top rung of AOW could garner more fans then a down-the-rung portion of AOW does. Lord help us if they couldn't.

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