Ganassi signs Kyle Larson

[ghost]

In IndyCar the formula is that a driver has to be just good enough to get around the track without hurting himself or anyone else + bring a check, bingo your an IndyCar driver!

Its simple, for the very most part this is a pay for your ride series. And the fans get to watch the cool cars out there with guys behind the wheel who may not be the most talented open wheel drivers in the world, but they do come from money.

As a fan, when you accept the series for what it is, it's not that bad... it's just different. I say, enjoy!

[grogg]

Gary Bettenhausen - 4 top tens in 27 Indy 500 attempts
Danica Patrick - 6 top tens in 7 Indy 500 attempts

Let Danica run some of the sh!tbox rides that Bettenhausen had to carry and see how many top 10s she can notch. Danica could not even carry Gary Bettenhausen's helmet bag.

[grogg]

You'd have to compete with something other than a lifetime of financial security for him and his family. It would require for him to be interested in something intrinsically found in IndyCar and unavailable in NASCAR.

But what is found in NASCAR and not in IndyCar is the possibility of one day competing against drivers you looked up to like Stewart, Newman and Kahne. A lifetime of financial security certainly doesn't hurt

[Turn13]

Not sure what you're saying, grogg, but just to clarify what I said that you quoted: IndyCar can't compete, one-to-one, financially - it only has about a tenth of the revenues.

IndyCar only gets so many talented foreign drivers because they are essentially overflow from another series even more immensely popular than NASCAR - namely, F1. They don't displace talented Americans, so much as just replace the ones that leave for NASCAR.

The ridebuying, both foreign and domestic, is a result of the cost / benefit imbalance, because cars capable of physically doing what IndyCars do are inherently expensive. They got that way by evolution under conditions when revenues (from popularity) were more capable of supporting such development.

There also is a "road racing" component needed to compete in IndyCar, and that is due almost as much to the physics of the cars as it is the configuration of the tracks - the fast way around is in a rear- or mid-engined car, and by "flying", not sliding, around. And the point in IndyCar has been more about being fast, and less about sliding, bum,ping, grinding, or rubbing.

Not that there's anything wrong with those

[Niseguy]

Yeah Ritherford only finished the 500 twice. But has three wins

[rocket5612]

Gary Bettenhausen - 4 top tens in 27 Indy 500 attempts
Danica Patrick - 6 top tens in 7 Indy 500 attempts

Gary Bettenhausen drove in and won more races than Danica Patrick ever has(and ever will) and he did it with the use of only ONE arm! In 1972 alone Gary led 138 laps at Indy before his engine blew.

I love how you leave out that Gary won 6 Indycar races to Danica's one win.

[Todd Gack]

1. IndyCar only gets so many talented foreign drivers because they are essentially overflow from another series even more immensely popular than NASCAR - namely, F1.

2. The ridebuying, both foreign and domestic, is a result of the cost / benefit imbalance, because cars capable of physically doing what IndyCars do are inherently expensive.

1. Most aren't "overflow". They are drivers, who for whatever reason, weren't deemed worthy of a F1 ride or whose careers were stuck in neutral in Europe or South America and who have literally no choice but look to Indy Cars. Indy Cars are taking F1 and F1 feeder scraps (which they almost always have in any era) and trying to sell that as being "top shelf". And either America isn't buying it or are just apathetic towards that.

And F1 isn't a pimple on NASCAR's posterior in this country as far as popularity goes.

2. Its inherently more expensive to race in NASCAR Cup now. Their budgets are much greater then Indy Cars. The cars and engines in Indy Cars are overpriced, for the relative lack of creativity in the packages and the lack of interest in the sport itself.

How can Cup owners and Nationwide owners and ARCA owners be looking at American racing talent and Indy Car owners cannot/do not? Why is this the deal? Why can many of these folks see the big picture and know that cultivating young talent is imperative to the continued health of the entire sport and the Indy Car folks cannot/do not?

[VirtualBalboa]

Its inherently more expensive to race in NASCAR Cup now.

And it is much more expensive to race at Le Mans or in F1 than in Cup. All of that is irrelevant. NASCAR has a huge money TV deal and a large number of fans buying tickets - far more than Indycar.

How can Cup owners and Nationwide owners and ARCA owners be looking at American racing talent and Indy Car owners cannot/do not?

ARCA and Nationwide are seen as entry points to the Cup Series, ergo aspiring Cup drivers are willing to go run there. Plus there is more money in that pipeline than there is in Indycar, especially in Nationwide series. Sam Hornish probably makes more driving midfield in a Nationwide car than he would running at the front of the field in an Indycar.

[Aeron]

We didn't even compete.

Of course any American kid with any talent at all, is going to have NASCAR as their first priority. They'd be stupid not to.

But at some point, we gotta at least try and compete again for a few of these kids. If just for perceptions sake.

Beyond the question of how much money do you want to spend wooing a kid whose never made a right turn in anger his whole life the ICS is what it is right now. To put it in college football terms Kyle Larson is Robert Nkemdiche, the number 1 of the Rivals Top 100 who has offers from nine top-tier programs Brigham Young. Right now for Kyle Larson NASCAR is the top ten programs and Indycar is not even BYU.

Getting Kyle Larson to turn his back on his NASCAR dreams and start out, and stay in Indycar, would be nothing less than a major coo. There are only three teams that have the resources to properly develop him, two of whom have NASCAR programs. My question to you is how much time and money do you want a team to invest in Larson?

Because he has no road course, or formula car experience he's at least a year, maybe three, out from being competitive in the ICS. So you're going to have to pay him a salary and either pay for his developmental rides yourself or use your staff to find sponsorship for him. To bring him along properly so he can hit the ICS and be the rookie who can win three or four races out of the box he's going to make as many asphalt starts as possible so you're looking at getting him rides in Firestone Indy Lights and because of his lack of road course experience you're probably going to have to run him in the Star Mazda series as well so that you can speed up his learning curve. What really helps learn overtaking is mixed class endurance races, so you're going to have to find him rides in the 24 hours of Daytona, 12 hours of Seabring, Le Petite, 24 hours of Le Mans. To test him against the best young talent you probably want to start him in Macau so he can get the title of the "First American to win the Macua Grand Prix." You're also going to have to expand to add a car for him at certain races so he can get some experience in the big cars before his rookie season. Odds are because of his background he's going to need two years of an intensive training program, which would cost a car owner at $1.2 million a year to run Star Mazda, FIL and two Izod starts a year on top of whatever salary you have to promise him in order to get him away from Indycar, and since there is almost no ROI for the ladder series you can't count on finding him sponsorship, so odds are you're going to have to carry the brunt of that load yourself.

I mean sure, you could rush his development, but any honest assessment of Kyle Larson has to include that he needs at least a $1 million in backing two to three years before he's ready to step into the ICS at a level where he can win races. And even after putting all these millions into Kyle Larson, with him, there's the great likelihood that he jumps to NASCAR after two or three seasons. So why pour all that money into someone who doesn't want to be there.

To go back to the college football analogy we need to be Boise State. Boise State doesn't land 4 and 5 star recruits, they bring in a bunch of two and three star guys, they don't even really bother with trying to land guy on the top 100 list, but they beat Georgia last year, had a chance at the national championship and put guys into the NFL. Going after Kyle Larson is sort of a waste of time and money for the ICS. The series needs to be grooming kids like, Josef Newgarden, James Hinchcliffe Connor de Phillipe, Conor Daly and Sage Karam, young North Americans who have the desire and the ability to be stars in Indycar. You take that with the best drivers available like Barrichello and Sutil, NASCAR castoffs like Bryan Clauson and Colin Braun, and you have a strong series that can sustain itself. Blowing resources chasing guys who want to be in other series gets you nothing.

[Turn13]

1. Most aren't "overflow". They are drivers, who for whatever reason, weren't deemed worthy of a F1 ride or whose careers were stuck in neutral in Europe or South America and who have literally no choice but look to Indy Cars.

That would be my definition of "overflow".

Indy Cars are taking F1 and F1 feeder scraps (which they almost always have in any era) and trying to sell that as being "top shelf". And either America isn't buying it or are just apathetic towards that.

People are apathetic about the series for a number of reasons - the lack of fenders being one The biggest reason, though, is that it isn't NASCAR. A lot of series have that issue. All of them, actually - but yet IndyCar is the most popular among them. Before the split, it was four times more popular than it is now.

And F1 isn't a pimple on NASCAR's posterior in this country as far as popularity goes.

The point was, it is much more popular than IndyCar, and therefore generates much more talent than it has capacity to use.

2. Its inherently more expensive to race in NASCAR Cup now. Their budgets are much greater then Indy Cars. The cars and engines in Indy Cars are overpriced, for the relative lack of creativity in the packages and the lack of interest in the sport itself.

Another point you missed - IndyCar achieved its higher speeds and technical requirements when it was much more popular. The higher expense in NASCAR is the cost to compete, which every series has, in direct proportion to its popularity. The additional cost that IndyCar has over NASCAR is the cost of going 220+ mph safely, and on a greater diversity of track challenges.

How can Cup owners and Nationwide owners and ARCA owners be looking at American racing talent and Indy Car owners cannot/do not? Why is this the deal? Why can many of these folks see the big picture and know that cultivating young talent is imperative to the continued health of the entire sport and the Indy Car folks cannot/do not?

It's not so mystifying one you understand that it's the greater popularity that drives the revenues, and the ability to attract and retain talent. That goes for teams and team owners, as well as drivers. The only ones remaining in IndyCar are the ones most loyal and desiring to be there.

NASCAR didn't always have the most talent overall (though they did have some), but yet they grew. IndyCar pulls some talent, but the pull from the feeders for NASCAR and F1 is uneven more because the technical preparation for each relates to IndyCar differently than because talent is payed for differently.

Rest assured, the top teams in IndyCar are going for talent, the best they can, and they are paying for it. And all that domestic talent in USAC hasn't gotten them a tv contract.

[psullivan]

Please tell me someone didn't try to compare Danica to Gary Bettenhausen ---. Here is an idea - let's compare how many wins AT ANY LEVEL that Danica has in comparison with Kyle Larson -- and then lets move on to Gary. 25 more milligrams and you will be okay

[kevin99]

There is actually someone who thinks Danica was better than GB. What planet are they from?

[rocket5612]

There is actually someone who thinks Danica was better than GB. What planet are they from?

Sickening how misinformed most of the people on Trackforum are isn't it? I have a feeling a large number of TF members are either very young with little to no knowledge of the history of the sport or are SCCA road course/autocross guys who wanted to race real race cars but couldn't so they push their road course agenda because thats what they relate to.

Edit: PS: most of them hold Paul Tracy on a pedestal because they think he is just oh so talented. What a joke!

[9rows]

I can't believe we lost him again. That's like three times this year already.

...as to the OP. until ratings are up, and teams have sponsors that give them the budget to pay drivers, it's hard to blame a kid for going where the money is

but we already knew all that

[MoparsRule]

The kid is seriously badass, it'd be nice to see an ICS owner grab hold of him, but I' not sure his talents would translate to that sort of thing.

[MoparsRule]

I can't believe we lost him again. That's like three times this year already.

This may well be the funniest post I have ever read at TF this week. I seriously love that.

[psullivan]

The kid is seriously badass, it'd be nice to see an ICS owner grab hold of him, but I' not sure his talents would translate to that sort of thing.

Exactly right = those who follow short track open wheel racing know who Keith Kunz is - as a mechanic he has worked at some point with some of the all time best to come out of short track racing in the last two decades including Tony Stewart. After Larson won his first USAC midget race at Bloomington Keith looked me in the eye and said "this kid is badass" --and he is. I've been around a long time - he is a kind that does not come along every day. People on this forum may care not that he is headed south - but I bet you a buck a guy who does is a man who made it to the short tracks several times this past summer to watch him (and others) race - including the Chili Bowl - Randy Bernard

[Todd Gack]

I bet you a buck a guy who does is a man who made it to the short tracks several times this past summer to watch him (and others) race - including the Chili Bowl - Randy Bernard

That's the problem.

Until Chip Ganassi or Kevin Kalkhoven or Dale Coyne or John Barnes are the ones out scouting talent and looking for the "next big thing or next great young talent" at some of these locales, then its not going to mean a whole lot.

Randy might truly want to get a Clauson or a Larson or a Swanson into the Indy Car country club...but until his car owners and engine leasers feel the same way....

We absolutely HAVE to make the effort to go after and keep a few of these young AOW talents in OUR neighborhood. Why should stock car racing, get OUR best young prospects? Or get them, without even trying? Running AOW sprint cars and midgets has no more in common with running large full-bodied stock cars as they do running lighter, faster formula cars. There is a huge learning curve with both. Yet, some here just want to eliminate an entire genre and ignorantly feel that running a sprint car relates more to stock car racing then the top rung of AOW does. Makes little sense.

That is lunacy and its sad. Sad to see so many young AOW grads, who will be kicking ass at Daytona in the next few weeks and not even on the radar of our sport anymore. Very sad.

[Turn13]

Randy might truly want to get a Clauson or a Larson or a Swanson into the Indy Car country club...but until his car owners and engine leasers feel the same way....

It's not exactly like they don't know what they're doing, is it?

On the other hand, where are all the 'traditional' open wheel team owners? Why aren't they in IndyCar like Chip and Roger and Ed and Sarah?

Same story - they will return when the crowds, relative to NASCAR, do. That's exactly what it would take for the feeders to organize themselves with IndyCar as their goal as well.

It's the only way it's ever worked. It's the only way it ever would. Why people think that would change is beyond me.

[psullivan]

It's not exactly like they don't know what they're doing, is it?

On the other hand, where are all the traditional open wheel team owners? Why aren't they in IndyCar like Chip and Roger and Ed and Sarah?

Because they can't afford it - when the IRL started there were some that thought that some owners in USAC, Steve Lewis, Hoffman's, Joe Michner etc were going to jump in - they didn't. As for Todd's comment's he's correct - it always is worth reminding people that when Tony Stewart landed at Menards, John really didn't know who he was - that was probably brokered by Carey Agajanian

[Turn13]

Because they can't afford it ...

Yep.

Popularity drives revenues.

NASCAR has a better than 10:1 advantage.

Feeder series organize themselves around paths of least resistance, and money greases the skids.

[Joonyah]

Edit: PS: most of them hold Paul Tracy on a pedestal because they think he is just oh so talented. What a joke!

The only people above Paul Tracy on the all time winners list in American Championship Car Racing have the surnames Foyt, Andretti, and Unser.

You were saying?

[SayWhat]

The kid is seriously badass, it'd be nice to see an ICS owner grab hold of him, but I' not sure his talents would translate to that sort of thing.

Rumor has it one of the BIG 2 owners in IICS that also has NASCAR teams have scooped him up in some development type deal.... not sure which one, but thats the rumor on the street..

[ptclaus98]

That's the problem.

Until Chip Ganassi or Kevin Kalkhoven or Dale Coyne or John Barnes are the ones out scouting talent and looking for the "next big thing or next great young talent" at some of these locales, then its not going to mean a whole lot.

Randy might truly want to get a Clauson or a Larson or a Swanson into the Indy Car country club...but until his car owners and engine leasers feel the same way....

We absolutely HAVE to make the effort to go after and keep a few of these young AOW talents in OUR neighborhood. Why should stock car racing, get OUR best young prospects? Or get them, without even trying? Running AOW sprint cars and midgets has no more in common with running large full-bodied stock cars as they do running lighter, faster formula cars. There is a huge learning curve with both. Yet, some here just want to eliminate an entire genre and ignorantly feel that running a sprint car relates more to stock car racing then the top rung of AOW does. Makes little sense.

That is lunacy and its sad. Sad to see so many young AOW grads, who will be kicking ass at Daytona in the next few weeks and not even on the radar of our sport anymore. Very sad.

But sprint cars are more related to stock cars than IndyCars. Especially when most sprint car races are on dirt. There is a complete disconnect between setup philosophies and then there is also the equipment involved. That's all before you get on the track. What sprint cars do give is an immense sense of car control, which is why if these guys were able to compliment their sprintcar racing with some running in a wings and slicks formula car, it would make them all the better. Michael Lewis is a perfect example of this. Grew up racing midgets and karts, and will be on some radars in Formula One, and will probably win Indy one day. I think it goes both ways, too. I wish some guys in the road racing ladder would do the same.

[Todd Gack]

The only people above Paul Tracy on the all time winners list in American Championship Car Racing have the surnames Foyt, Andretti, and Unser.

You were saying?

Foyt, Andretti and Al Unser are AOW legends, with 9 Indy 500's between them. And they competed at a time when Indy Car Racing got THE BEST talent. They were actually racing against and beating THE BEST.

Tracy never won the Indy 500 (and only really competed at the front there a couple of times in his entire career) and chalked up 70% of his career IC wins after 1995.

How's that sound?

[Todd Gack]

Rumor has it one of the BIG 2 owners in IICS that also has NASCAR teams have scooped him up in some development type deal.... not sure which one, but thats the rumor on the street..

Which, if true, makes it even more frustrating for our sport.

[Joonyah]

Foyt, Andretti and Al Unser are AOW legends, with 9 Indy 500's between them. And they competed at a time when Indy Car Racing got THE BEST talent. They were actually racing against and beating THE BEST.

Tracy never won the Indy 500 (and only really competed at the front there a couple of times in his entire career) and chalked up 70% of his career IC wins after 1995.

How's that sound?

Sounds like he still has more wins than anybody racing in the field today except Bourdais, who he's tied with.

[lkchris]

There's a huge reason, they don't want to be here. Just because a driver starts out in USAC doesn't mean they dream of driving in IndyCar.

Problem is, this is the kind of driver folks want to see race "here."

It's only the smallest minority of USA race fans that enjoys Viso, Saavedra, Sato, Mann, etc. Not enough to be economically viable. Very few drink the "Kool-aid" that these are talents.

Of course this sort of driver doesn't want to go to a not-economically viable formula. It's called "professionalism," i.e. getting paid for your talents.

[Grizzlor]

As much as I would want Larson in IndyCars, if I were his parents/agents/whatever, I would tell him to go to NASCAR if he's that good. The money difference is staggering.

[Todd Gack]

As much as I would want Larson in IndyCars, if I were his parents/agents/whatever, I would tell him to go to NASCAR if he's that good. The money difference is staggering.

Maybe, just maybe, its not about "the money".

Maybe its about racing against the best, in the top series in the country.

Most of these race drivers don't have to worry much about finding enough money to pay the rent, so I think its more a wives tail that says that drivers are only looking at NASCAR because they actually make money there. That's a big factor. Not always "the biggest" though.