Weight has little to do with speeds on an oval such as TMS. Drag is more the speed limiter.If they added weight to achieve balance on the ovals, then they have to be slower unless they let them crank up the hp a little.
(well, and of course horsepower)
new sig pending
Originally Posted by ttturner68
"They're gonna have to put my ugly face on that trophy now!" -Tony Kanaan IMS, May 26, 2013
Race CARS Not DOGS!!! Adopt or foster a retired greyhound -Me
Yes I did and I vowed never again to support them if they drastically reduce speeds like that. To put it plainly, Indycars really aren't relevant at lower speeds. What's the point? There is already Nascar. If you can drive a taxi cab 190-200, then an Indycar better be substantially faster. ANd yet, that isn't even the benchmark that matters. What matters is the reality of speed and the perception of progress after a 90 year history of trying to go faster.
claiming a car that has not turned a competive lap should be 4 seconds faster during preseason testing, now that is constructive.
I am sure that was the target.
At some point its just trolling.
You cannot wrangle chaos. You can only try to plan for it.
Nonsense... sorry, but you just have rolled back your expectations to incredible low levels!!!
Indycars used to be the 2nd fastest "OW" cars... trailing only F1. The previous Dallara was SLOWER than GP2, Formula Nippon, & A1GP cars. Thank IMSA rules for keeping Indycars faster than their heavier prototype cars at tracks they shared for the weekend.
Even in preseason shake downs, the new Dallara should be much faster. This car was supposed to be 150-200 pounds lighter than the old car & due to the "issues" in development its probably only 60-70 pounds lighter.
Add the parachute like rear wing & is it really a surprise the drivers are craving more speed???
Absolutely call BS, until there is one competative lap turned there is no basis to make any statement about how much faster except that we know that it is. Depending on the track 4-5 seconds come on. Just more sky is fall nonsense based on testing of a entirely new formula. Year and Half from now you want to come back a B1tch about not being 4-5 seconds faster. Fine still will be a bit outlandish depending on the circuit, but right now it is nothing but trolling.
they might also be sandbagging to make sure boost is not taken away from them....that's what i would be doing if i was lotusI suspect that, at this point, Lotus is well behind Chevrolet and Honda in terms of engine development which is to be expected. Once things get caught up, and the competitive juices start flowing between engine manufacturers and teams, we'll see much faster speeds fairly quickly.
porscheman
Not sure there point in the developement, surely they would be at superspeedway boost levels. But they wouldn't even know where to start on a setup against 2 teams that have been invovled in nearly all the testing.
"Trolling" my aching arse
Indycar has been to tracks where their times can be compared to GP2, Formula Nippon, A1GP, & perhaps Super League Formula. Don't be intellectually lazy & do the research for yourself... its out there
Indycar is NOT re-inventing the wheel. Are Turbo V6 engines brand new to motorsport?
Is Dallara showcasing some innovative way of using carbon fiber??
Hell no... this new car's lone breakthrough is rear bumpers!!! As I stated Indycar used to be 2nd to F1 on a road course... the last two ICS chassis can NOT say this. Now the drivers are starting to worry about this continuing...
I'm sure the 2012 car will get faster, but not dramatically with the current specs. The chassis is only marginally lighter & the engine HP slightly higher.
4-5 seconds is a massive amount of time. f1 teams can maybe find a half a second over the course of a season unless something big comes into development.The old cars were barely faster than select ALMS P1/P2 cars that were 4-500 pounds heavier & heavily restricted by IMSA (certain tracks).
The old Dallara was originally designed to be an all oval chassis... I would hope a brand new 2012 design record faster times!
This new car is indeed a "pig" as it should be 4-5 seconds faster... even in early stages of shakedown testing. So far its ugly & slow... so I sure hope it provides good racing.
The new car is already faster and it's just going to get better. Once teams figure out how to set the car up we'll see times drop a lot.
F1 cars are already the fastest OW cars on a RC + 6-7 seconds faster than the old Dallara.
The new Dallara is only slightly faster than the old one. Yes, it will get faster but it won't put the Indycars #2 behind F1 cars.
Nor do any of those series compete on ovals.
"The series may be hesitant to say it, but the day is here for everybody that loves IndyCar racing to link arms and help each other out. Anybody who doesn’t want to do that needs to find something else to do with their time.”
-- Eddie Gossage, President, Texas Motor Speedway, ICONIC Advisory Committee & TrackForum member
Well if it makes you feel better Graham Rahal ran a lap that was nearly 2 seconds quicker then the records IICS at Barber Motorsports Park a couple of days ago. Not to mention Graham's time at Barber was basically a tire test, suspension, and engine test - not a team test. Not to mention even during the test Graham picked up nearly 2 seconds on his previous time JUST A DAY BEFORE so there is A LOT of speed to find.
I think to expect the car to be 4-5 seconds quicker is expecting a little too much. Even the new F1 cars are nearly 2 seconds slower then the previous F1 cars and that's how it nearly is everytime you introduce a new car. So there's no doubt the DW12 is quicker then the old car on the road courses but the ovals are different. The ovals are all about balancing out the car aerodynamically and weight wise. Dallara is still working on this but from the test at Phoenix and Texas the car has shown more speed and steadiness then in the past test. Tags is riding in a Lotus car that finally hit the oval track thus why he was only going 205.
Comparing F1 to Indycar well be the doom of us. Personally this is why so many fans left us because instead of focusing on the product before us fans started to compare it to something else that was an apple while we were watching oranges. You can't compare them and shouldn't. This is why many Indycar fans have such low self esteem for their series no matter how awesome it is.
"The only good horsepower is usable horsepower.."
Sorry the truth hurts, your nothing but trolling.
That is certainly your perogative, but it doesn't help and its not productive.
Yes, but the majority of INDYCAR's schedule is on street & road courses.
No, the truth is you feel comfortable sticking your head in the sand.Sorry the truth hurts, your nothing but trolling.
Numbers don't lie... Formula Nippon was faster around the Motegi RC than the Indycars
In a year and a half, Aero-kits in place and engines well developed competative laps turned. Come and complain again and I will call it complaining and wanting more. But right now at this point is just unneeded uncalled for, especially in a thread about Lotus being 7mph slower than the Chevy on it first oval laps out.............. Sure as hell not going to see fastest laps at Texas without compression suits or submession technology.Yes, but the majority of INDYCAR's schedule is on street & road courses.
No, the truth is you feel comfortable sticking your head in the sand.
Numbers don't lie... Formula Nippon was faster around the Motegi RC than the Indycars
Trying to judge the new DW12 prior to turning even 1 competitive lap reminds me of a good old friend who used to sit down at a big meeting and announce to everyone: "LET'S HURRY UP AND JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS!"
Or, "YOU'RE HIRED!!! NOW WHAT DO YOU DO ANYWAY?"
Get your head out of your past!!!
jeesh,, this is like a bring back the roadsters rant,
I think watching everyone figure out how to find more speed will be the best part of this season
comparing this in a hindsight is useless
theyve picked the car to start with for the next era
Im just glad Ive learned the patience to enjoy it all as it progresses,, can that be taught?
I love the sport more than I hate the past,
The only big jump in speed will be if these new engines get an increase in HP. As for the 2013 aero kits... the rules only allow minor changes. Dramatic changes will not be allowed as the rules are currently written & many racing professionals have cast the same opinions.
There has also been lots of talk of competitive balancing... do you think if Chevy dominates the first few 2012 races they wont get a boost adjustment? If Honda builds a superior 2013 aero kit, how long do you think the ICS will let them whoop on Chevy & Lotus?? If the Lotus motor surprises & wins the first few races...how long before the ICS prompts to supply more than 5 engines???
Why are you bringing Texas Motor Speedway into your argument?
When did TMS switch to a RC layout? We are comparing Indycars on ROAD COURSES... to other series that race on RC's
If you haven't read any of the negative feedack from the drivers on the new car, you must've been hiding under a rock. I will not waste any time posting a link for each of them, but you at least have Dario, JR and now Tag...
We're not even talking about practice. It's been slow in testing...so has Red Bull...I guess they'll fair no better than 7th in the constructors championship this year.
I am a fan of the IZOD IndyCar Series, Formula 1, and AMA Supercross in that respective order.
Uh maybe it is the Lotus that is slow and not so much the car? It seems that the other teams were faster even though they weren't going for speed.
Skypigeon "If you're not on the bus, don't whine about the direction it's going."
I like it!! By the way, we use your line from Caddyshack every Saturday morning when we discuss who is going to get strokes with the $1 bet we make with our golf foursomes. "YOU'LL GET NOTHING AND LIKE IT!" Gotta love Judge Smells. "I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them."
Boost adjustment? I could see a boost adjustment between a V6 and an I4. But among the same configuration, I would be extremely surprised if they would make a boost adjustment. They will allow the manufacturer to make an update during the season if they are more than 2.5% down on power. But I did not assume this was a boost adjustment, heck they don't need an update to increase boost, just dial in the new number into the ECU. I assumed an update was a redesign that could include, lower internal friction, better camshaft profiles, less losses in the exhaust and intake ducting, etc.The only big jump in speed will be if these new engines get an increase in HP. As for the 2013 aero kits... the rules only allow minor changes. Dramatic changes will not be allowed as the rules are currently written & many racing professionals have cast the same opinions.
There has also been lots of talk of competitive balancing... do you think if Chevy dominates the first few 2012 races they wont get a boost adjustment? If Honda builds a superior 2013 aero kit, how long do you think the ICS will let them whoop on Chevy & Lotus?? If the Lotus motor surprises & wins the first few races...how long before the ICS prompts to supply more than 5 engines???
Why are you bringing Texas Motor Speedway into your argument?
When did TMS switch to a RC layout? We are comparing Indycars on ROAD COURSES... to other series that race on RC's
Of course you have to read between the lines! These guys are pro athletes; do you think any driver is going to come out after a test and say: "this car is a piece of junk!!!" no matter how true it may be? When you have drivers who very delicately comment on the car's speed, by saying words like "the test was great but..." or "the new car breaks well, but..." you know what the driver is thinking.
Look, it has been well documented by now that there are real concerns about the speed of the car. Some on these boards like to refer to the ones who want to talk about it as trolls and that's fine. If you guys aren't worried about the new car being this slow 1 month before the start of the season, good for you. But I happen to be one of those "trolls" who is very concerned when I see the kind of money that was invested for a new car that is only marginally faster on road courses than the 9 year old Dallara it replaces.
I agree with some of the posters who say that an Indycar should be only a few seconds slower than an F1 and much faster than any other feeder series (like it used to be in the 90's and, yes, the Champcar day -there, I said it). As a fan, this is what I expect from my series of choice and I don't see why anyone else would expect any less...
Cue the Iverson video
"Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"
Brian's Wish
The Red Bull RB8 (with Vettel behind the wheel...)was P3 in this practice session... .2 seconds off P1. That's deemed "slow" now???We're not even talking about practice. It's been slow in testing...so has Red Bull...
I was talking about today...Webber was actually 6th to make a correction. Anyway, my point is they aren't dominating testing and neither is McLaren or Ferrari, but you'd be dreaming to think they won't be quick when it comes down to Q1 at Australia.The Red Bull RB8 (with Vettel behind the wheel...)was P3 in this practice session... .2 seconds off P1. That's deemed "slow" now???
Which is what I was referring to, heh.
Cue the Iverson video
Well said Arrowz! But you echoing the view of some drivers and numerous fans is trolling..."Trolling" my aching arse
Indycar has been to tracks where their times can be compared to GP2, Formula Nippon, A1GP, & perhaps Super League Formula. Don't be intellectually lazy & do the research for yourself... its out there
Indycar is NOT re-inventing the wheel. Are Turbo V6 engines brand new to motorsport?
Is Dallara showcasing some innovative way of using carbon fiber??
Hell no... this new car's lone breakthrough is rear bumpers!!! As I stated Indycar used to be 2nd to F1 on a road course... the last two ICS chassis can NOT say this. Now the drivers are starting to worry about this continuing...
I'm sure the 2012 car will get faster, but not dramatically with the current specs. The chassis is only marginally lighter & the engine HP slightly higher.
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