For the public, all the top-tier series run on pavement. When's the last time a dirt race got national attention? We already look like a second-tier sport enough without running around on a dinky little dirt oval.
For the public, all the top-tier series run on pavement. When's the last time a dirt race got national attention? We already look like a second-tier sport enough without running around on a dinky little dirt oval.
So a form of racing that was born on brick and ovals should have never added street courses because they are different?
I dont have a problem with IndyCar sanctioning some dirt tracks. It was good enough for AJ and Mario, it's good enough for me!
"I think there's only so many people that can take care of themselves, and can take care of other people. And the rest of the people … they're useful in terms of compost for the whole planet, you know." - Bill Murray
What top tier....NASCAR? I can tell you this, there are many dirt track events that pull good crowds. Ever hear of the Knoxville Nationals? Williams Grove runs the World of Outlaws 6 to 7 times a year to standing room only crowds of 12 to 15k. I've been to IndyCar races with about that many in the stands.Originally Posted by tehlrov
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be another year older when you do"
http://www.pbase.com/davidm2
http://www.jacksracephotos.net/
Well I think the Hulman Family has an interest in the Terre Haute Action Track. I don't see a problem with IndyCar having it's own "prelude to a dream" race. This would be an exibition race during the month of May.
Get your head out of your past!!!
It's not worth it, David. You're talking to a brick wall.
I hope no one takes this the wrong way but how would everyone feel knowing that the cars on dirt (if they used sprints, silvercrowns) would have more HP than the cars they run everywhere else?
I respect the history of the sport and there are things best left to history in the sport. So, no...this isn't 1958 and there is a reason they don't drive on dirt anymore.
...and that reason is... the car/team owners "didn't like" dirt track racing... meanwhile Andretti,
the Unsers, Foyt, etc. insisted that the dirt races remain on the schedule... and demonstrated
their contempt by continuing to run the dirt champ cars for another 4-5 years.
"It is a besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which masses of men exhibit their tyranny." - James Fenimore Cooper
"One man with courage is a majority." - Thomas Jefferson
Because TF is stuck on replay.
What current relevance does dirt track racing even have to IndyCar other than this forced BS some of you are trying to push onto us. Having to go to a different car just goes to show it's not relevant. It's not 1950 anymore. Lets move on.Yes more expensive as it would reguire the addition of a dirt car, but perhaps Indy teams could work out deals with current dirt car owners.
Dirt tracks? Really?
1) This isn't 1950.
2) World of Outlaws seems to have cornered that market.
3) It hurts the image of the sport. Makes IndyCar seem lower tier, like someone said
4) The cars aren't built for that. The cars are built for acceleration and top speed. These cars wouldn't get out of first gear on a dirt track. They also wouldn't handle like you're thinking at all. They'd just putter around the 1/4th mile circuit.
5) Asking for separate, dirt-exclusive cars is stupid. You're asking teams to take on a extra financial burden. You're asking engine and aero manufacturers to take on extra production burdens, and for what? What's the end goal? How are you going to convince Honda that it's in their best interests to build a turbo-charged IndyCar engine capable of running on dirt ovals. What are you going to say to Dallara? How about sponsorship. Is William Rast, Izod, or any number of the higher end sponsors going to be down with the dirt? If you truly want the most diverse calendar of racing, why not also include a Marathon, Boat Racing, Airplane Racing and a fastest phone texter competition?
Also, it's an identity crisis. Making a new car entirely changes what defines an IndyCar. Right now, and IndyCar has one basic image to it. Same with a NASCAR or a Formula One car. If you have a series that has two completely different cars, then it's not going to be recognizable.
6) This will do absolutely nothing to win over anyone in the under-30 demographic. Nothing. That generation is barely interested in Auto-Racing as it is, and Dirt Racing is something akin to a hoedown. It's old. It's worn out. There's nothing for my generation with it, it's something from a completely different era. I've personally been to World of Outlaws events, I enjoyed it... but that's not what IndyCar is... and that's not what it needs to be...
"Young enough not to care too much about the way things used to be.
I'm young enough to remember the future. The past has no claim on me.
I'm old enough not to care too much about what you think of me.
But I'm young enough to remember the future. The way things ought to be."
1)DUH!1) This isn't 1950.
2) World of Outlaws seems to have cornered that market.
3) It hurts the image of the sport. Makes IndyCar seem lower tier, like someone said
4) The cars aren't built for that. The cars are built for acceleration and top speed. These cars wouldn't get out of first gear on a dirt track. They also wouldn't handle like you're thinking at all. They'd just putter around the 1/4th mile circuit.
5) Asking for separate, dirt-exclusive cars is stupid. You're asking teams to take on a extra financial burden. You're asking engine and aero manufacturers to take on extra production burdens, and for what? What's the end goal? How are you going to convince Honda that it's in their best interests to build a turbo-charged IndyCar engine capable of running on dirt ovals. What are you going to say to Dallara? How about sponsorship. Is William Rast, Izod, or any number of the higher end sponsors going to be down with the dirt? If you truly want the most diverse calendar of racing, why not also include a Marathon, Boat Racing, Airplane Racing and a fastest phone texter competition?
Also, it's an identity crisis. Making a new car entirely changes what defines an IndyCar. Right now, and IndyCar has one basic image to it. Same with a NASCAR or a Formula One car. If you have a series that has two completely different cars, then it's not going to be recognizable.
6) This will do absolutely nothing to win over anyone in the under-30 demographic. Nothing. That generation is barely interested in Auto-Racing as it is, and Dirt Racing is something akin to a hoedown. It's old. It's worn out. There's nothing for my generation with it, it's something from a completely different era. I've personally been to World of Outlaws events, I enjoyed it... but that's not what IndyCar is... and that's not what it needs to be...
2) WoO took over the top tier of dirt track racing because the Indy Car series abandoned it!
The Hoosier 100 was THE #1 dirt track race in the WORLD when it was part of the Indy Car
series.
3) A matter of opinion.
4) That's why we are talking about a dedicated dirt car. And we are not suggesting 1/4 mile
tracks. Springfield, DuQuoin, Indiana State Fairgrounds, Syracuse, and Sacramento are
1-mile dirt ovals.
5) Start with a spec car. Nothing unheard of about that. Dallara need not be involved.
Honda can do whatever they want. Someone will supply engines, possibly even turbo'ed.
As for the sponsors, you might be surprised. I remember when a dirt modified racer in St. Louis
had sponsorship from a brokerage firm.
6) That's what the racing writers were trying to tell the public when the rear engined cars
showed up at Indy. "Dirt racing is old-fashioned and will soon cease to exist at all" was
the message. Then came Outlaw sprint cars, the dirt late model explosion, IMCA modifieds,
etc. As for the under-30 crowd, Go to another WoO race and watch the spectators this time.
Then go meet the drivers.
http://daviddonner.com/special.aspx
Realistically say no, but I wouldn't object if the cars looked like the car above, or the donner in the link. Open wheel rear engine winged hill climb cars could be adapted for dirt ovals and maybe IndyCar could return to it's distant herritage of including hill climbs.
Congratulations to RHR, & all the winning drivers & teams in the fantastic 2012 season. Looking forward to 2013!
We are all together now. Goal 22-24 races per year split 50:50 oval:RC/SC
You do realize the world doesn't revolve entirely around the under-30 demographic!!! Us OLD FARTS are still around too!!! Like it or not we helped build racing up by participating in and enjoying a lot of different types of racing. Those old worn out hoedown dirt tracks MADE racing in the country and it worked for a LOT of years. Sometimes you have to look back at where the sport came from to realize how it got to where it was. It didn't happen with drivers that get paid so much they only have to race once every other week or so. It happened with drivers that raced 5 or more nights a week to make ends meet. They were in front of fans each time they raced growing their fan base. They also had to push it to the limit and beyond. The higher you finished the better the pay. That's how they got to be household names that people recognized. They ran all those hoedown dirt tracks and small paved ovals in between the Indycar races or NASCAR races or BOTH! That's how they built their fan base and in the end that's what brought a lot of fans to Indy, Daytona and all the other major races. They wanted to see their favorite driver do well in the big time.
Keith Koether http://www.kkraceshots.com
Ex ARCA, ASA and local bullring crewdog. I remember when racing was really racing and the Talladega Express!!!
Like it or not, the marketing world is mostly geared at the under-30 demographic, specifically under-18. When you talk about "moving the needle," it's the under-30 demographic that you have to worry about. I'm not saying that dirt track racing is bad, or useless, I'm just saying that a generation of people brought up on the internet and iPhones are going to feel a disconnect toward something that is entirely antiquated. Not only stylistically, but in appearance. Dirt racing is dirty, it's rough, it's gritty. That is the furthest thing from what they want to see.
Formula One, NASCAR, V8 Supercars, any major racing series right now... it's smooth, it's clean... The lines the drivers take, the paving and marking of the tracks, the coverage of the event... smooth. And they all market themselves in some way as being the most technologically advanced.
Dirt track racing is the furthest thing from that. It's not advanced, it's primitive. It's from an era before paving and maintenance was readily accesible in all locations.
I totally understand that, "you old farts" like the things you grew up with. Hell, I like the things you grew up with. A lot of my favorite musicians are from the 50's-70's, I love racing (including things like WOO), I just spent the evening watching an 80's movie, and I spend most of my time online chatting on forums with people 35-60. I totally respect and admire some of the same things you do... but my point is, when it comes to my generation, dirt track racing is just far far too disconnected from what we, as a generation, want to see.
Infact, my generation hardly watches racing at all, in my experience. Most of my friends regard my passion for auto-racing to be old-fashioned, uncool, boring, etc. Not that I care, and the ones that will let me, I've gotten interested in IndyCar.
And if you want to even remotely move the needle, then you need my generation aboard.
If you don't want to move the needle, and you're okay with IndyCar slipping to the popularity of WOO's, then that's a different matter entirely.
Its also a part of Indy Car's past. A big part of it.
Just because it hasn't been a part of the F1 Junior Series Era, doesn't mean it doesn't count.
What would one dirt oval race a year hurt? Are we afraid to offend the 198 fans we still have? I betcha we could get more folks to show up at Eldora to watch a Indy Car dirt race, that showed up at Vegas (with free tickets mind you) in October for the "World" Championship.
Those "dirty, filthy, grimy" motocross riders seem to pack them in pretty well. I betcha a lot of 18-30 year olds are in the stands watching too.
Prime Minister of Gackland
Are we talking about USAC or Indy Car?
Because all Indy Car now is, is a regional (midwest) die-hard gearhead sport too.
Firstly, that's not true. Secondly, even if it were true, it wouldn't be a strong argument for a return.
"Wait, what do you mean it's not true! I saw IndyCars on dirt back in <insert year>!"
Well, you see, what we call IndyCar today does not have a history of dirt track racing. What we call IndyCar today started in 1996, after a split with CART, which had been the sanctioning body of what was called "IndyCar" for a long time.
CART formed in 1979, eight years years after the last dirt-race.
The last dirt race in the highest level of AOWR occurred in 1970, under USAC.
If IndyCar (formerly the IRL) is the current incarnation, CART was the previous "generation" and USAC was the "generation" before that.
So in my opinion, IndyCar has no direct connection to dirt track racing. IndyCar's Grandfather did.
"IndyCar" as it is today does not have a past in Dirt Track racing. It has a past called the IRL. Saying today's IndyCar has a history of Dirt Track racing is like saying I worked as a Locomotive Engineer for Norfolk and Western... which I didn't, my Grandfather did.
"Well, that's stretching it kid. Besides, USAC ran the IRL for it's first two years, so the connection is valid."
USAC ran it like an unprofessional beer league, and were rightly dismissed from power as soon as their ineptitude was proven. Thus the phrase "lower tier" that has entered the conversation.
But, okay, fine. Even if you want to argue that leagues that were not this league are directly this league... somehow.... that doesn't mean that it belongs in the present.
Things change, simply put. What (barely) worked in 1970 won't necessarily work in 2012. The fact is, "we used to run dirt races, so we should still" is such poor logic.
The last race on dirt happened 19 years before I was born for Christ's sake!
By that same logic:
Baseball should sometimes not use gloves, because they weren't used until the 1870's.
Nor should baseball always award first base on a hit batsmen.
American Football should occasionally be played without helmets, as they were not made mandatory 1943.
The NHL should sometimes bring back the "two line pass" rule, as it was used until around 2000.
...
Or we could just leave the past in the past.
I want a series that is looking toward the future. Toward getting better. Toward improving itself. Not a series that wants to look to the past.
Of which there is exactly one on the 2012 schedule.
ok,, a million to win hoosier hundred, run the week before the 500,, the top 18 indy starters vs, tony stewart, jeff gordon,, ryan newman, kyle larson,,,,, 100 miles,, live tv, betcha it would draw a lot of TV and crowds,
I love the sport more than I hate the past,
now I feel awful for enjoying 5 decades of indycar, Indycars grandfather?? I guess I need to drop my respect for all history that brought america to its greatness,, Great futures will forver be emulating the greatness of any past time that worked,,
You have to turn right to turn left.
Go ahead IndyCar. I triple dog dare ya.
You have to turn right to turn left.
Go ahead IndyCar. I triple dog dare ya.
O-Qua Tangin Wann
Qua Omsa Lagee Wann
No one is suggesting 1970 or earlier safety standards.By that same logic:
Baseball should sometimes not use gloves, because they weren't used until the 1870's.
Nor should baseball always award first base on a hit batsmen.
American Football should occasionally be played without helmets, as they were not made mandatory 1943.
The NHL should sometimes bring back the "two line pass" rule, as it was used until around 2000.
Smooth clean lines... so why do the young people seem to like DRIFTING so much?it's smooth, it's clean... The lines the drivers take, the paving and marking of the tracks, the coverage of the event... smooth.
Have you ever been to a top-level dirt track like Springfield or DuQuoin? I don't think you haveDirt track racing is the furthest thing from that. It's not advanced, it's primitive.
any idea what we are talking about here.
Pics of David Donner's hillclimb car:
Pics of Springfield & DuQuoin:
Springfield Grandstand:
DuQuoin:
I get the impression that you think you generation is "different" in this respect. When I was underin fact, my generation hardly watches racing at all, in my experience. Most of my friends regard my passion for auto-racing to be old-fashioned, uncool, boring, etc. Not that I care, and the ones that will let me, I've gotten interested in IndyCar.
30, most of my contemporaries/friends had little or no interest in racing as well, and now years
later they still don't!
So if you're trying to tell us your generation doesn't care about racing... well, guess what...
most people of all generations feel the same way... as big as the ratings are, as many tickets
are sold... most people, regardless of age, are choosing to do something else.
Last edited by KenK; 02-25-2012 at 03:33 PM. Reason: spelling
So you throw a few dirt tracks into the mix. After the expenses to the teams for equipment, you've gained a viewership of some curious dirt track fans who won't follow the series beyond these dirt tracks because the championship moves back to it's regularly scheduled run of street and road courses. Something they're not interested in at all.
Net gain of nothing.
Judging by who is left on the IC board here, I'd say most of the oval fans have already left the sport.
Its now just a mixture of old CART fans, old Champ Car fans and bunch of old Crapwagoneers. Hell, there are probably more oval fans posting in the CE forum now, then on the IC board.
Maybe the top rung of AOW could actually appeal to those AOW oval fans again, ....in the next incarnation of the sport.
So you're promoting the idea of another split then?
No, but it will probably happen anyway.
We've seen how this movie plays out already.
Yeah, the Indy 500 ratings fall dramatically after a series created to promote more American grassroots oval track drivers takes over the Indy 500.
Thanks for the pics KenK, I've always wanted to go to Springfield or DuQuoin, now I KNOW I'm going!
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