TSO Surmises That TMS is gone after 2012

[Todd Gack]

After brayton's death, who would have thought that a wall could have been made safer to prevent that?

The SAFER Barrier is one of the greatest safety innovations to come along ever.

I've seen 4-5 accidents this year already in NASCAR that may have seriously injured (if not worse) the driver 10-15 years ago. The latest being Brian Scott's head-first shot at Vegas this past weekend. All have walked away without a scratch.

Fences likely can be made safer. But their job is to be strong enough to protect spectators FIRST. Can't compromise that. And AOW that get airborn and hit at the wrong angle doesn't really matter what kind of fencing is used. Its going to be real bad.

[ndcrs]

sorry - got pulled into off-topic.

[speedgeek]

Once the product was homogenized to please the road racing enthusiasts, the excitement that characterized that race in particular vanished.

Please explain that one, D.

How was the product homogenized?

Who were the road racing enthusiasts?

Were they pleased with the result?

[Chris Paff]

Who were the road racing enthusiasts?

Were they pleased with the result?

99% of the drivers and car owners are road racing enthusias

The result is the ovals coming off the schedule, oval fans leaving the series in droves, road/street courses dominating the schedule, podums & unknown foreign ride buyers

[Turn13]

99% of the drivers and car owners are road racing enthusias

The result is the ovals coming off the schedule, oval fans leaving the series in droves, road/street courses dominating the schedule, podums & unknown foreign ride buyers

Where did those ovals fans go? There must have been a series with a corresponding boom in attendance and ratings, eh?

[Chris Paff]

Where did those ovals fans go? There must have been a series with a corresponding boom in attendance and ratings, eh?

Well they sure stopped attending Indycar events. I am sure alot went back to NASCAR in the early to mid 2000's when the hand writing was on the wall.

Just look at the drop in attendance at Indianapolis, Kentucky, Texas, Chicagoland, Kansas, Milwaukee.

There really is not anything left in Indycar for the oval racing fan to be excited about. The series has done nothing to get those fans back. At the same time the series has bent over backwards to get the former Champ Car fans back.

[Turn13]

There really is not anything left in Indycar for the oval racing fan to be excited about. The series has done nothing to get those fans back. At the same time the series has bent over backwards to get the former Champ Car fans back.

How many former Champ Car fans were lost after '96? How many "oval fans", as you call them, has the series lost since the mid 2000's?

Do those same "oval fans" attend WoO or USAC events?

[pb]

Where did those ovals fans go? There must have been a series with a corresponding boom in attendance and ratings, eh?

This assumes those fans followed only one series. If they followed multiple series and dropped one, it does not follow that another series they have already engaged with will see a spike.

[irloyal]

Where did those ovals fans go? There must have been a series with a corresponding boom in attendance and ratings, eh?

We spend our disposable income on other events. I do things like take a trip to Barret Jackson instead of going to an out of town oval event. I'll probably do Fontana this year, and something like a Hot August Nights or some other motorsports type activity since there are so few ovals on the schedule.

[Disciple]

Please explain that one, D. How was the product homogenized?

It got down to a single spec, single motor series that was micromanaged beyond reason. That led directly to single file parades on great ovals like Richmond, complete with mostly yellow flag pit stops en masse and not much action on the track. Gimmicks like push-to-pass only go so far. Road racers have a different mentality than oval racers. Great oval racers are calculated, patient and seize opportunities to advance where and when they come along. The jets get turned up at the end, after they have spent the first ¾ of the race setting up the last ¼. Rick Mears and the Al side of the Unser family were masters of this (one reason that family has so many wins at Indy and the entire Andretti family has one). Road racers are consistently more aggressive (often needlessly and/or stupidly so), and although an unwritten code of conduct is generally observed mostly in terms of where and how to ‘overtake’ their style rarely translates well to ovals. That, I believe, is one reason why road racers cause so many oval problems. When the product gets as homogenized as it was, what we have seen was predictable. I remain optimistic that as the new engines get sorted out and the owners finally decide to get serious about aero kits more exciting oval racing will result. Of course if owners keep hiring/accepting funding from foreign road racers without a lick of oval experience the results could be as goofy as they have become.

Who were the road racing enthusiasts?

The majority of those who own teams in IndyCar as well as the majority of the drivers who drive them.

Were they pleased with the result?

I do not believe they will be completely pleased until the schedule is 100% non-oval (except perhaps Indy, which they will want to de-emphasize except as an identifiable brand for the genre), there are no air scoops, as many races are run outside the United States as in it, and ties with IMS are cut as much as possible. The closer they can get to 1995 the better.

As disenfranchised oval fans have begun to leave in earnest, I cannot help but notice there has not been a commensurate increase of road racing fans, even though ‘unification’ occurred. In the big picture, ratings and attendance remain rather flat. That clearly tells me the variety/balance about which the leadership pontificates is sorely needed now more than ever. The new car and motors will help, particularly when aero kits come along. They had also best add an oval-centric rung on the road-to-Indy ladder. The sub-series they have added over the past few years have all been 100% road racing. That is not advisable.

Hope this answers the questions.

-The Always Available Disciple of INDYCAR

[atrackforumfan]

there are no air scoops

Why would anyone, oval or roadie, be in favor of adding a part to a race car that doesn't make it safer, faster, or prettier? It's more advertising space, I guess, but it's counterintuitive that team owners would be motivated to reduce their advertising inventory for no good reason.

[RS2]

Road racers have a different mentality than oval racers.

It would seem to me that outside of the older racers now racing in Indycar there are no more oval drivers of the type you speak of. If so where? End of the line.

And do not say NASCAR. They are not what you described.

[Disciple]

There a few, but they have acquired the knowledge over time and from people who were good at it (now forced out). Helio Castroneves comes to mind. I'd like to see opportunities open to more than just foreign road racers. They could come from anywhere....even off road.

-The Equal Opportunity Fan Disciple of INDYCAR

[RS2]

There a few, but they have acquired the knowledge over time and from people who were good at it (now forced out). Helio Castroneves comes to mind. I'd like to see opportunities open to more than just foreign road racers. They could come from anywhere....even off road.

-The Equal Opportunity Fan Disciple of INDYCAR

So who is next in line behind these guys? Nobody, end of an era. You outlived ow oval racers. Probably never thought you would see it happen.

[Chris Paff]

So who is next in line behind these guys? Nobody, end of an era. You outlived ow oval racers. Probably never thought you would see it happen.

If that is true when we all outlived Indycar because it will not be sucessful without successful American oval racing.

[RS2]

If that is true when we all outlived Indycar because it will not be sucessful without successful American oval racing.

Sure it will. It will just be with road racers doing it. OW racing is popular all over the world. No reason it won't be in America. There will always be a few ovals and Indy. Take a look at a pic from Indy or wherever from the 60's or 70's when oval racing was at it's peak. Tons of people in the stands. Well, the big giant fact is that most of those people are now dead and evolution (thanks D) has turned the sport in another direction. Indy racing will survive and there always be ovals thankfully. But this ovalcentric thinking that Indycar must be all Americans, or even mostly, and the series must be oval based is fantasy.

There will always be racers who stand out on ovals and be better than the rest. There will come around racers who can race on ovals as well as the legends of the past. But there will be no oval racer that will succeed unless he also can compete on road courses.

[Chris Paff]

Sure it will. It will just be with road racers doing it. OW racing is popular all over the world. No reason it won't be in America. There will always be a few ovals and Indy. Take a look at a pic from Indy or wherever from the 60's or 70's when oval racing was at it's peak. Tons of people in the stands. Well, the big giant fact is that most of those people are now dead and evolution (thanks D) has turned the sport in another direction. Indy racing will survive and there always be ovals thankfully. But this ovalcentric thinking that Indycar must be all Americans, or even mostly, and the series must be oval based is fantasy.

There will always be racers who stand out on ovals and be better than the rest. There will come around racers who can race on ovals as well as the legends of the past. But there will be no oval racer that will succeed unless he also can compete on road courses.

RS2, Soccer is also popular all over the world but is not in the USA same with Road Racing.

If Indycar being ovalcentric is a fantasy same can be said for your vision of the future of AOW.

The ovals are dropping like flies because the series is doing nothing to appeal to the oval racing fan. Just adding ovals to the schedule does not mean the series is doing anything to appeal to the oval fans.

If Indycar to going to survive it needs to be popular in the USA, saying Indycar can be a successful International series is living in a fantasy world. IMO

[Disciple]

So who is next in line behind these guys? Nobody, end of an era. You outlived ow oval racers. Probably never thought you would see it happen.

There are actually plenty of potentially great oval stars. The problem is they will never, EVER get any shot of any kind in Indy Cars or any of the rungs of the ladder (except for forced EEO situations like the USAC deal) under its current philosophical regime. Why even look around some small midwestern oval track when you can hire someone like a Luca Filippi? All any rational thinking person needs to do to verify this theory is look objectively at the way Indy Car owners hire drivers. Even when they hire Americans it's usually after they've had a tour of Europe.

Big picture: Why even have ovals given that orientation?

Therein lies a lot of my current frustration over lack of balance.

-The Who Will Be The Next Foreign Road Racer With A Bag Of Money Disciple of INDYCAR

[RS2]

RS2, Soccer is also popular all over the world but is not in the USA same with Road Racing.

If Indycar being ovalcentric is a fantasy same can be said for your vision of the future of AOW.

The ovals are dropping like flies because the series is doing nothing to appeal to the oval racing fan. Just adding ovals to the schedule does not mean the series is doing anything to appeal to the oval fans.

If Indycar to going to survive it needs to be popular in the USA, saying Indycar can be a successful International series is living in a fantasy world. IMO

Chris, there is no large number of ow oval racing fans anymore. If there is, point it out.

[Disciple]

There are no large numbers of road racing fans in the US either.

-The Striving for Balance Disciple of INDYCAR

[RS2]

Big picture: Why even have ovals given that orientation?

Because ovals are basically the defining image of American racing. There will always be ovals on the Indycar schedule. But if some kid racing on a small midwestern track wants to race Indy, he better learn how to race the style of cars relevant to what is racing at Indy.

[Chris Paff]

Chris, there is no large number of ow oval racing fans anymore. If there is, point it out.

Indy 500
TMS (The same event that the road racers are trying to kill)
WOO
USAC
Hundreds of short tracks around the country on every Saturday night

[RS2]

Indy 500
TMS (The same event that the road racers are trying to kill)
WOO
USAC
Hundreds of short tracks around the country on every Saturday night

We have been through this before, many times. There are not hundreds of tracks every Staurday night. First of all how many OW short track series are there in America? How many weekends in a season do most short tracks feature ow cars? How many once prominent short tracks have closed in the past five years?

I think the numbers would be suprising to you.

[Disciple]

How many big or small road courses have been constructed to fill the void?

-The Getting Dizzy Disciple of INDYCAR

[RS2]

How many big or small road courses have been constructed to fill the void?

-The Getting Dizzy Disciple of INDYCAR

Tracks are not the topic. I was responding to Chris. I am talking about where the drivers will come from. And ovals are not going anywhere.

[Turn13]

It's not about how do we have more ovals or more road courses, it's about how do we appreciate both and support the series.

Because neither is doing well right now - it just so happens, there's a chance that some street races might squeak by, just because they get subsidies and the new casual fans they attract don't have to do much to attend.

The division is what's killing the series. Every time we split, we lose. Every time we pull together, we win.

We need fans that can appreciate both, whatever, and that can share that experience with new fans.

Because it isn't about giving "oval fans" or NASCAR fans or F1 fans or sportscar / road racing fans what they want - all of those needs are already met, to the extent the demand exists. It's about building demand for IndyCar, which is the fastyest, most exciting and competitive series there is that runs open wheels on ovals, runs the Indianapolis 500, and runs a variety of tracks, maybe even in your downtown.

The ONLY reason the series doesn't have choice in venues, in teams, in talent, and in TV, is because it doesn't have the numbers in general popularity.

The only way to get choice in venues, in teams, in talent, and in TV is to at least be increasing in general popularity.

It doesn't have to be ovals, streets, roads, or whatever, because there are examples of all of those doing very well, right here in the U.S of A., as well as on any other continent where people get a lick out of being faster and hanging it out.

[Turn13]

Indy 500
TMS (The same event that the road racers are trying to kill)
WOO
USAC
Hundreds of short tracks around the country on every Saturday night

Only one of those has not shown a decrease in popularity in the last five years, while also maintaining at least enough popularity to rate a broadcast TV contract.

I'm an oval fan myself, but I know from experience the numbers just aren't there.

If all Americans on all ovals was the key, USAC and WoO would be king. They're not. NASCAR is popular for a hundred reasons, many of which have less to do with the racing, per se, as much as with culture and demographics. Just ask the sweet little old lady at the bank with the Jeff Gordon sticker on her 1991 Monte Carlo

Don't get me wrong, all big-time racing ends up being interesting, because the bucks buy talent, intrigue, meaning, purpose, drama, and intensity. But what is selling in this country is some of the slowest, most-chance-riddled, regulated and contrived top-tier racing on the planet.

And that isn't "pure" open-wheel oval racing. Never was.

[Disciple]

The numbers are not there because no effort is being expended on them. Well, save for Michael Andretti, and he does not have that much time to pull ONE event together. For the most part, IndyCar continues to alienate their best oval partners (Eddie Gossage). As long as IndyCar is going to be controlled by road racers who hire road racers and work hard to race on non-ovals, this situation will not change appreciably.

It takes meaningful effort and right now there is almost none.

-The Calling It As I See It Disciple of INDYCAR

[Turn13]

The numbers are not there because no effort is being expended on them.

Tell that to WoO and USAC.

Word-of-mouth, personal endorsements are the most powerful form of marketing known to man, and they cost nothing. We just aren't getting enough of them, and many of the ones we get come from you, Paff, Gack, ripper, Spicoli, Penelope Pitstop, and Lee.

Those don't help.

[Disciple]

Baloney.

I do not care about USAC or WOO. If I have a chance to attend their events I do. With regard to Indy Car, I have paid to attend most of the races the past few years and I have taken people with me every time. I do not plan on discontinuing that. Go ask Paff, Gack, ripper, Spicoli, PP, or Lee how many events they have attended over the past five years. Just because I choose to speak out on what I see as a dangerous trend does not mean I do not support the sport. Get real.

-The As Welcome As Jerry Sandusky At A Cub Scout Meeting Disciple of INDYCAR