So IndyCar is only 16 years old?Originally Posted by Doc Austin
So IndyCar is only 16 years old?
"Young enough not to care too much about the way things used to be.
I'm young enough to remember the future. The past has no claim on me.
I'm old enough not to care too much about what you think of me.
But I'm young enough to remember the future. The way things ought to be."
cart/champcar isn't Indycar.
I don't really have any problem with cart/champcar having threir own history book and record books for the years 1996 and beyond, because by then they were their own seperate entity. By then, they were not part of Indycar, and should rightfuly be excluded from Indycar history and records.
If you want to be honest, that is.
If not, Buddy Lazier......... cart champion! That's just as honest as calling bourdais an Indycar champion.
"Is that my *** that I smell burning?" ... Helmet Stogie from "Death spasms of the Mabuchi"
So.. 1979-1995... CART? indyCar? Both? Neither? Before then, sut USAC?
Why don't we just call al of it IndyCar and call it a day?
How about 1980 and the CRL championship?
It gets a bit convoluted, but I think anything up until 1996 is ligitimate because that was the series that raced at the Indianapolis 500. After that, the IRL was the series that raced at the Indy 500, and cart/champcar was simply another open wheeleed series that did not race in the Indianapols 500. If you didn't race at Indianapolis, you aren't Indycar, no matter how loudly you lie about it.
Before all of this, USAC was the official sanctioning body for the Indy 500 and the race was part of it's championship. Completely ligitimate.Before then, sut USAC?
What's not ligitimate is boycotting the Indianapolis 500, and then staging your own competing race, THE REAL CARS THE REAL STARS THE REAL 500, and then expecting all of that hooey to be included as part of the history of the series that ligitimately races in the Indianapolis 500.
Just as soon as Buddy Lazier gets credit for his cart championship. That, and Sam Hornish gets his name on the vanberbuilt trophy.Why don't we just call al of it IndyCar and call it a day?
IndyCar bought ChampCar, and all of it's records. That's how they say it, that's how the record book lists it, and so that's how it should be.
Here's how I think of it: The sport is American Open Wheel Racing. The leagues are USAC, CART, IRL, IndyCar, etc. Maybe CART was the NL, and the IRL the AL.
Except it's a lie.
Unless, of course, you are willing to acknowledge Buddy Lazier as the great cart champion he is. He won just as many cart championships as bourdias won Indycar championships.
So when does Tony Adamaowicz, David Hobbs, John Cannon, Jody Scheckter get their names on the Vanderbuilt cup? Does this make Brian Redman a four time Indycar champion?Here's how I think of it: The sport is American Open Wheel Racing.
No. The American league and National conferences are all part of the same league. cart/champcar was not part of Indycar from 1996 on, therefore, they have no ligitimate place in Indycar recordbooks during those years.The leagues are USAC, CART, IRL, IndyCar, etc. Maybe CART was the NL, and the IRL the AL.
I'd say that obviously the Track Record for Indy Type cars is held by the 03 Lola driven by Seabass.
I don't think the new car will break many ChampCar records early in the year, but maybe later. Over the course of the next couple of years they should break all the common RC/SC/Short Oval records unless there is a decision to slow them down.
Here is my prediction for the next common playground LBGP.
2003 CC 68.18 Lola
2004 CC 68.91 Lola
2005 CC 67.49 Lola
2006 CC 66.89 Lola
2007 CC 67.55 DP01
2008 CC 66.90 DP01
2009 IC 69.71 IR03
2010 IC 69.32 IR03
2011 IC 69.06 IR03
2012 IC {67.55} DW12 Estimated R. Hooper
"People are very open-minded about new things - as long as they're exactly like the old ones."
Charles Kettering
@Hoop98
Here's the official 2011 Record Book.
http://media.indycar.com/pdf/2011/II..._Book_INT6.pdf
Please scroll to page 338 and tell me who set the track record at St. Petersberg, what year it was, and what Sanctioning Body oversaw the record?
Champcar was the sanction body, therefore, it is not an Indycar record. It's a champcar record.
We can talk about Champ Car, CART, what have you, until the cows come home. Bottom line: the clock doesn't care. The cars have limited development and the boost turned down and they're still within a half second of the DP-01 some of our membership seems to worship. When these babies get some miles behind them and get the boost turned up...I think this is gonna get interesting.
"Only a fool fights in a burning house."-Kang
"If you listen to fools....The Maaahhhhb Ruuuules....."-Ronnie James Dio
Then why is it in the IndyCar record book?
It wasn't a DP-01, it was a Lola. The DP-01 was a Panoz.We can talk about Champ Car, CART, what have you, until the cows come home. Bottom line: the clock doesn't care. The cars have limited development and the boost turned down and they're still within a half second of the DP-01 some of our membership seems to worship. When these babies get some miles behind them and get the boost turned up...I think this is gonna get interesting.
I ultimately agree though. Let's just crank it up and beat the CART record.
Keep it up, boys - as if perpetuating the split is going to help anything. I would have thought you'd had enough of declining ratings, attendance, new fans, etc.
"The series may be hesitant to say it, but the day is here for everybody that loves IndyCar racing to link arms and help each other out. Anybody who doesn’t want to do that needs to find something else to do with their time.”
-- Eddie Gossage, President, Texas Motor Speedway, ICONIC Advisory Committee & TrackForum member
Don't chicken out and say "certain" people. Let's be clear who you are talking about.
"Try some of these before or after your statements if you are not presenting them as facts. Things like - "In my opinion", or "I think that", JHMO, IMHO, IMO, JMO... Your opinions are not (necessarily) fact. That would clear things up some." - Seadog 03/25/2010 11:40am So the above is JMO.
If you insist. That would be you, then. Along with a number of others.
Yeah. Who cares about the truth? We can tell a bunch of lies to keep the champcar crowd happy and everything will be great, right?
How big of a lie is it that any champcar champion was at the same time an Indycarf champion? How big of a lie is it that you can win the Indycar championship without even racing in it?
bourdais did not win any Indycar championships. He won four champcar championships, but that's it. You can't win a championship you are not in, except in the dishonest minds of those who want to equate cart/champcar with Indycar. It is not the same thing and it is dishonest in the extreme to insist it is.
I'm fine with cart/champcar having their own history and records. From 1996 on, though, none of that had anything to do with Indycar racing.
Unless, of courswe, it works both ways. Buddy Lazier......... cart champion.
Doc, what was the series formerly known as CART and Champ Car that you like to refer to, officially called in 1994, 1995, and 1996 and what was the Indy Car series refered to prior to 2011? The name was changed for one reason and one reason only and that was over licensing, it had nothing to do with any sort of change in equipment. In fact, the IRL used the identical equipment in their inaugural year!CART/Champ Car have as much right to be referred to as Indy Car as the Indy Racing League does. They are both Indy Car, and the merge between the two series and the inclusion of both series into the record book proves that.
As such, Bourdais' record at St. Pete shouldn't be ignored anymore then Dario's victories from 1997 to 2002 should be.
Hornish was a three time Indy Racing League champion, Bourdais was a four time Champ Car champion, they are each three and four time Indy Car champions.
IndyCar not only is a sanctioning body, but it's also a style of car. IndyCar just means that the cars were developed with Indianapolis, and the history of racing at indianapolis, in mind, which is true for CART/ChampCar. That's why they were wider than Formula One cars, why they sacrificed acceleration for top speed compared to Formula One, and why they had different aero packages for ovals and twisties.
Indy-Style-Cars. IndyCars.
There is no more "champ car crowd." Champ car doesn't exist anymore.
It's been 4 years now. Why won't you consign the Split to history where it belongs and just let us all be Indy car fans again?
Fine. Have it your way, but it's dishonest to include any champcar records as part of Indycar history.
Buddy Lazier.......... cart champion.
Because I am more interested in being factually correct than politically correct.
CART no longer exists. CART never bought the IRL's records. When CART did exist, Lazier was not in it.
CART's records were bought by IndyCar, and are shared by IndyCar.
You're more interested in winning an argument than contributing positively to the health of the sport and its fanbase.
Split's over. THAT'S a FACT. Sorry you miss it so much that you insist on perpetuating its divisions.
Indy car now recognizes both record books. That's another fact for you. They got past it. Most of us fans got past it.
Some can't seem to get past it and insist on creating divisions where they no longer exist.
Enough is enough.
Well, get used to it cause I will never stop complaining! The series will never ever be good enough and I will always find something that can be improved upon.
But keep complaining about the complainers cause that sure is useful.
What is completely lost on you is that this isn't about the DP-01 or Champ Car or whatever it is you and Doc want to try and make it about.
It's about the series being consistent in how they apply history! There is absolutely no respect for the history of "our" sport.
If they want to keep them divided, keep them divided I don't care, but they decided to merge the record, which I agree with and is my preference. If Indy Car wants to say Dario just passed Mears on the all time wins list and is approaching Unser Sr. then you better be consistent in the way everything is applied.
They said this was the 9th time they were racing at St. Pete. If it's the ninth time then that is including Champ Car's visit. Otheriwse it's the 8th time. But they said it was the 9th but then completely ignore Bourdais's record.
They also said this was Helio's 26th Indy Car victory. If it's his 26th Indy Car victory they are including his CART/Champ Car wins. If they are including them, then why isn't Bourdais' lap mentioned?
Hey if you want to say it's because of the curb's, knock yourself out I am perfectly okay with that, I understand the affect curbing has on the cars, but then show Bourdais' lap and show Power's lap. Build some intrigue, build some interest, sahre some of the rich history, don't paint over it with a broad brush as it suits your agenda.
If it's the 9th time Indy Car is at ST. Pete and its the 26th Indy Car win for Helio, then Bourdais' holds the current Indy Car track record.
Doc, post #107..........I'm waiting.
We all know that. No matter how good things get, people like you will need things to whine about.
I'm not making it about the Split, Doc is. I'm just saying these new cars are quick on these kinds of circuits, and are only gonna get quicker. Sorry if any positive discussion of the sport scares you. I know you're not equipped to deal with things like that.
What boost turned up? Unless I missed some announcement, the maximum boost is not going to change.We can talk about Champ Car, CART, what have you, until the cows come home. Bottom line: the clock doesn't care. The cars have limited development and the boost turned down and they're still within a half second of the DP-01 some of our membership seems to worship. When these babies get some miles behind them and get the boost turned up...I think this is gonna get interesting.
I don't think they've been running max boost this weekend.
Well, there is a very simple solution, just don't enter my threads. But instead you come into a thread that you know will be a complaint and then complain about it. Hypocrite!
Sure you are. You implied it was when you brought up the DP-01 pages back like I had issue with an "Indy Car" beating a "Champ Car".
Post number 35, you started this crap....
Originally Posted by gonzo
Why are the boys on the broadcast announcing a new track record by Hinch?
Bourdais ran a 1.00.928s back in 2003.
Hinch's 1.01.4491 is slower. How is that a new record?
Was the car quick? Ya it sure was. Was I impressed after my concerns this winter, yes, I will admit I was. But that wasn't what this thread was about. You made it into a discussion about cars. This thread was about records and the consistency to which they are applied. But your concern for my whining has interfered with your understanding of what the topic of the discussion is.
You want to go start a discussion about the new car, go for it, I will jump right in and tell you how pleased I was to see it this fast out of the gate. I've got no problem being positive. But positive discussions are boring. Rah rah, topic over.
So a discussion of track records has nothing to do with how quick the cars are. Right.
Oh, god forbid racing fans should put aside hatred and politics and discuss CARS. Discussion of cars, in your own words, is "crap." Positive discussion of cars on a racing fan forum. Oh! Blasphemy!
At last, gonzo admits he's mostly just whining and finds positive discussion of the sport boring. Got news for ya-your whining is boring.
Topic over, indeed.
Show me where I brought politics into this discussion. Otherwise, continue hitting yourself in the head with that hammer, its pretty funny to watch.
Try reading the very first post again and tell me how that is whining or making this about politics. You are the only one whining here.
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