26 full-timers +
-Andretti/AFS 4 (Saavedra)
-Rahal/Letterman 2 (Fillippi)
-Schmidt/Hamilton 2 (Bell)
-Foyt 2 (Cunningham or Tracy)
-Andretti/Conquest 5 (Beatriz)
-Shank (???)
-Carpenter 2 (Rice)
-Fisher/Hartman 2 (Clauson)
-Newman-Haas (Alesi)
TOTAL of 35.
And I am not completely certain we see Fillipi in May, no matter what has been announced previously. He'd be much better off making his debut at Belle Isle.
Last edited by Todd Gack; 04-11-2012 at 02:24 AM.
Prime Minister of Gackland
I believe we will see a "response" from Robin in the next couple days where he lays out a lot of the same stuff you just did.
"I think of Indianapolis every day of the year, every
hour of the day, and when I sleep, too. Everything I
ever wanted in my life, I found inside the walls of
the Indianapolis Motor Speedway."
- Eddie Sachs.
Made a couple of changes to my original list, thanks to some rogue information gleaned from shady, 'only-to-be-trusted in random situations' sources.
My list now might have a good, solid 50% success rate.
Like I put in the thread on the main board, I wish IndyCar would lift the badging requirement, if only just for Indianapolis. If they did, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Cavin has a updated Indy silly season article (from his original article on Sunday) in the Monday edition of the Star.
At least Randy understands the situation. His comment about "What good is Bump Day if there are only 33 cars?" is spot-on. Gotta have at least 35 car/driver combos, for any sort of compelling qualifying weekend. And I think we will. 35 or 36 will be the number, as I pointed out above.
Got depressed listening to Lee and Cavin drone on tonight about Indy entries. I hope they are dead wrong (and tend to think they are on a few things).
I'll lay this out as direct as possible (which I tend to do)...the Indy 500 and this sport CANNOT ENDURE A LAME MONTH OF MAY AND A 2003-2005 ERA FILL-DAY ON THE FINAL QUALIFICATIONS DAY. If the engine manufacturers eff this up and we are more concerned about a couple of sorry-ass LOTUS teams (when LOTUS ain't gonna be around much longer anyway no matter what happens) then seeing the big picture, then we deserve whatever we get.
We very likely will be going into the month of May in 2012 without much momentum. The one event that could turn that momentum at least in a proper direction is the Indianapolis 500. But this month could really blow up in everyone's faces. If we only have 34 entries, we are dangerously close to a disaster. All it will take is one or two blown engines at the wrong time and one or two crashes at the wrong time, and we could be looking at the ultimate and potentially final nail in the coffin of this entire sport. Because the day we start less then 33 cars at Indy, is the day its officially over. 33 is NOT just a number. And we don't want to find that out. That would be a PR hit that would kill us. And that's not being overly dramatic. It would be huge.
You can talk all you want about how damaging "The Split" was to the Indy 500. But I believe that the pathetic and lifeless qual periods from 2003 to 2005, did a hell of a lot of damage too. The Tony Stewart/Foyt stuff was laughable and the whole episode with Arie Jr possibly even worse. We can't ever have that again. Not with the fragile state our sport is in.
As "bad" or sub-standard as some of you think the 1998-2002 versions of the Indy 500 were, the one day that never changed from the 1960's or 1970's or 1980's or early 1990's, was Bump Day. And Bump Day in 1999 and 2000 and 2001 and 2002 was damn good. Nothing manufactured. Didn't matter if it was Chet Fillip or Dennis Firestone from the 1980's or Ted Prappas or Al Unser Jr from the early 1990's or Billy Boat or Robbie Buhl from the late 90's to early 2000's. The names may have changed, but it was the same human drama. The same race track. The same race. The same 4 laps to either make it or not. The same 6:00 gun. The same last hour shucking and jiving in the qual line.
Here is the thing for some of you fans who haven't been around long...the best part of the Indy 500 for many of us was qualifying. And the best part of qualifying was Bump Day. Pole Day was about the big dogs. It was cool to see who was fastest. Bump Day was about the small teams. It was about human drama. Bump Day was about dreams coming true and dreams dying. That is truly what made Indy special and different and unique, to anything else in sports.
We have to get that back. We have gotten a neutered version the past few years (with only 36 or 37 car/driver combos) and it was still good television. I don't remember anything about the 2008 qual weekend, except for Buddy Lazier's final run to make it in. At least a few guys and gals went home. If 36 or 37 is about all we can get nowadays in this economy and with the state the sport is in, then we could still make the most of that. But if it gets back to just filling the field this year with the first 33 that are deemed worthy of competing, it would be horrible. Because that would have NOTHING to do with what made Indy special and different. This isn't a Cup race, where most spots are guaranteed. You can screw all you want with the rest of AOW. But don't mess up the Indianapolis 500.
And yes, we get that LOTUS can't do many engines this May. Which means its time for Chevy and Honda to step up and make sure we have a proper month of May. If they are as committed as they say they are to this sport, its no time now to be "counting" engines and limiting participation. In the end, they will be the ones who lose out. Because fewer and fewer people are going to be watching their product. Don't give us the line about "only being able to service 13 or 14 engines this May". We aren't buying it. You've known this was the formula for how long? You knew LOTUS was in trouble for how long? Both of you know the score. Its all about Indy. The better Indy is, the better it is for you. And vice versa.
I am still more optimistic then Cavin and Lee, that we at least will have 35 car/driver combos this May. That is the number I have been told by a few trusted sources. I think we are about at 32 or 33 damn well confirmed already. So it won't take much more to get to that 35 number. 35 ain't great either. But it does give you little more of a cushion. And in this month, with so many unknowns and so many inexperienced oval drivers, that cushion might be needed.
Mike Shank is going to put something together, if not with his own team, at least partnering with somebody else. He's too dogged and has invested too much, to just sit on the sidelines all year. He truly wants to be a Indy Car owner and be at Indy.
We need Mike Shank. We need about 10 more Mike Shank's. Those were the kind of owners, we used to have a lot of. Those types of guys that made Bump Day fun. Maybe one day, it will be again.
BTW, I have updated my initial list from 10 days ago.
I got a bit confused then and thought there WERE 500 entries. Bump Day would have been fun.
"An emphasis was placed on drivers with road racing backgrounds which meant drivers from open wheel, oval track racing were at a disadvantage. That led Tony George to create the IRL." -Indy Review 1996
Todd, I agree with every thing you posted. I drove from Chicago each year for Bubble Day. I loved it. I remember '91 sitting at the entrace to Turn One when Willy went on his run like it was yesterday. I hit my stopwatch after this first lap and yelled, "It's over 217!" and everyone cheered.
I contend that the closed economy that was ushered in by the IRL has a lot to do with the low number of entries every year. There is no secondary market for cars anymore. For decades small low buck teams bought used cars at discount prices and entered them at Indy. This no longer exists. For that matter, because the economy is closed and you can't just show up with a car and engine that will pass Tech, those entries are suppressed as well.
Restore the free market and you'll have more entries at Indy. I don't want to hear about there isn't enough money for that. You don't need more money to allow for potential cheaper entries.
The Ayn Rand of Indycar
No one had to badge the Offy.
That's the thing, Dave. We have eliminated all the "smaller" teams.Originally Posted by DaveL
We still have the same number of big teams and full-time entries, as we ever had. When we had 40-50 cars trying to qualify in the "good ole' days", there were around 25 or so full-time entries trying to make the field. Its just that we have lost the privateer owners and "Indy-only" guys. No more John Menard's and Paul Diatlovich's and Jonathan Byrd's and Kent Baker's. No more Ron Hemelgarn being able to add 2 Indy-only entries, with cheaper Buick V6 power.
Our country club now has become so exclusive and so limiting to future owners, that the Indy 500 has become just another Indy Car race, with a few extra cars added by full-time teams. Sorry, but that sucks. And that's not Indy.
Yep. And those efforts by the Frank Fiores and Kent Bakers of the world were great stories in and of themselves. Theirs are the stories we tell over the Nostalgia forum. We remember them because they were so notable.
And as I said many times before, because you can show up with a legal car perhaps of your own design or an engine you tweaked yourself and try to make the show, the one offs sucesses and failures are also part of the Indy lore.
See, only I disagree with you when you're wrong
Likewise. Excellent posts by Todd.See, only I disagree with you when you're wrong
Yep. No brainer. Indy only, do this. Restore a tradition that should have never left.
Now there you guys go, talkin' all that nonsense. Socialized racin' is the only way to go. Randy'll have you diggin up a trench for the new snake pit and fillin' it back in again, you keep up talkin that way. You guys need to get your mind right!Yep. No brainer. Indy only, do this. Restore a tradition that should have never left.
...Always follow the money
Hypothetical question.
IF there were 40-45 good cars, are the rules written that even top teams could be bumped and not make it? In other words, could Penske be shut out like in 1995, or TCGR, or any of the top teams?
Just wondering if they added the d@mn gimmicks to that too.
"You just don't know what Indy Means" Al Unser Jr.
The only guy who added gimmicks to whether the fastest 33 started or not is your guy Mr. TG.
nascar has their top 35 gimmick. My question was whether the Indycar gimmicks could possibly ruin qualifying more than they already have by having "top 24" or something stupid like that. It had nothing to do withThe only guy who added gimmicks to whether the fastest 33 started or not is your guy Mr. TG.
They already have enough gimmicks to screw up the qualifying.
"I was hoping that would happen, its in the best interest of the league that all the full-time guys make Indy this year"
This above statement was made by one of our "fans" in response to someone saying that our great engine manufactures may have capped the entries at Indy this year at 33, to ensure that nobody gets their feelings hurt and everybody gets a cookie and makes the race.
Sorry Sonny, but you don't have a clue about what the Indy 500 is all about. None. And if indeed we are looking at 33 and 33 only being allowed to compete for the "biggest race in the world", our sport will have taken another 3 or 4 spots backward and our crown jewel race another few notches down the pecking order in prominence.
Ahh, another gem from one of our new fans. As Dave will more eloquently (with actual numbers I am sure) point out, that is patently false. The truth is there were almost ALWAYS 40-50 real entries. Every single year in the 60's, 70's, 80's and even a few years in the 90's."There were NEVER 40-50 REAL entries."
Hell I know for a fact (because I have the videotape to prove it) that there were over 40 REAL entries as recently as the year 2000. There were exactly 40 in both 2001 and 2002.
Our lowest car counts in modern-history at Indianapolis....2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. Haven't had over 37 car/driver combos in any of those years. See a trend? Probably never will again either, if we continue down the same path of "protect our ass" racing in Indy Cars. Or "exclude anyone else from joining our club" racing. Or "we are sucking the life out of Indy" racing.
And BTW, Kevin Lee reported tonight that he's talked to one driver, who has full funding for Indy, but can't get a engine. Another driver who has a sponsor ready to run but no team to run him (again, because the engines have been sequestered somewhere from going to any other teams but the ones they already furnish).
We could have 40 entries this year at Indy, if we really wanted to. Or to be more truthful, if our engine manufacturers (who are literally calling all the shots now at every level of the sport) wanted to. They don't. They won't next year either. Hell of a deal we got, isn't it?
well since this is the first year with the new engines and it has been made more than clear that there is a limited supply I do not see how this is and kind of suprise. Now, if next year the same thing happens, then there is ground for complaining.
Oh yeah, Lokk at these qoutes from 2006.
"Honda made it so reasonable you couldn't afford not to run a second car," said 1998 Indy winner Eddie Cheever, who ran veteran Max Papis as his teammate. "It was a great gesture by Honda and they deserve a large pat on the back.
"They helped preserve one of Indy's great traditions." In the case of teams like PDM, Luyendyk Racing or Curb
Motorsports, it was a godsend. "Plain and simple, we would not have been able to run this year without Honda's deal," said Arie Luyendyk Jr., whose two-time Indy-winning father put a team together for the IPS graduate.
"I mean, my dad couldn't have afforded a half-million dollar lease, but $100,000 was manageable.
" Paul Diatlovich, an original IRL team owner whose participation had been limited the past few years because of the escalating costs to field a car, echoed Luyendyk.
"No generous deal from Honda, no PDM," said Diatlovich, whose rookie driver Thiago Medeiros wrote off the team"s primary car in a practice accident but came back to make his first Indy start.
"I wasn't a big fan of engine leases when the IRL started but, obviously, times have changed and I know a lot of us little teams couldn't have competed this May without Honda's help."
Jeff Bucknum, whose father drove Honda's initial Formula One car, returned for his second Indy 500 as part of Ron Hemelgarn's team, thanks to the affordability of the Honda.
"I couldn't have put a deal together to run Indy without Honda's great lease price," he said. "There aren't many racing series where you can go out and get the same engine as the biggest teams.
"It was a sweetheart deal."
If need be I will.
A little update today...
D&R and Herta leave the LOTUS camp. I'd look for one to go to Chevy and one to Honda. That will then give both manufacturers 15 engines at Indy (which is what I predicted a month ago).
Chevy has 11 full-timers plus Andretti's 2 additional, ECR's 2nd and lets say D&R.
Honda has 10 full-timers, plus SFHR's 2nd, Schmidt's 2nd, Foyt's 2nd, Rahal's 2nd and lets say Herta.
Shank announces Howard deal today for Indy. They get one of the LOTUS's that is now available. HVM, Dragon's 2 and Newman-Haas are the 5 LOTUS entries for Indy.
We'll have 35 at Indy.
And Shank then becomes our first (and only) one-off team. Keeping a streak alive that has been going on since at least 1962 (according to Dave).
Per Cavin Tweet ECR is not running a 2nd car this year
I'd rather have 10% of the world interested in the ICS than 50% of US that NASCAR currently has
Picking 1962 as an arbitrary year as it was 50 years ago. One possible might be one off team is hardly cause for celebration.
Sounds like the rug was cut out from under them, because a full-time team needed an engine.
Ain't this engine stuff, interesting?
Actually, its a load of crap. I guess we are bound-and-determined to have a lousy qualifying weekend. I'll probably go play golf and say the hell with it. Knowing the 33 car field before ROP starts isn't very interesting stuff to me. And I am guessing many will agree with me and stay the hell away from IMS on Sunday the 20th. I'll go a few times during the month, just because of habit and the month of May means so much to me. But what is being done to this race and this event is a travesty. Indy is being flushed down the toilet with the rest of the sport. And its really sad to watch.
Buddy Rice, Tomas Scheckter and Paul Tracy are going to be sitting home and Jay Howard, Sebastian Saavedra and Michel Jourdain are going to be in cars at Indy. Is it any wonder...
This precisely is the reason, along with more and more goofy gimmicks, that despite new cars, new engines and a so-called renewed excitement, that the sport we love continues to struggle and falter.
anyone know why the second ssm entry is list as ssm instead of schmidt hamilton?
There may be only one true alternative left:
The Indianapolis 1000
Can't you just feel the excitement building for Monday?..."Will Mike Shank Racing be granted a engine lease for Indy to fill the field?""Newman Haas expected to withdraw #Indy500 entry. That leaves Shank to make 33. Its deadline on landing engine Monday."
Man, you could do a reality show on this that would have America riveted!!
And we as fans and supporters of this sport and this event are just supposed to sit back and take this? Where is the outrage from the Robin Miller's and Oreo's of the world? You know, if this was 2003 and we were still "split", they'd be ripping somebody up-and-down over these events and how the month of May was a joke. Have all of our 4 or 5 writers, gone soft or become too "shilled" to write the truth?
A Monday APRIL 30th deadline, for a team with everything in place, to be leased an engine, to fill the field of the Indianapolis 500. Simply unacceptable and just plain sad. And those that accept it are the real problem here.
I kinda hope Shank gets denied, just for the stink it will create. I am for anything at this point, that stirs this up and gets somebody to take notice of the mess we have created for ourselves. Just hope ruining the month of May and sending even more fans to other pursuits, isn't the avenue we take.
Last edited by Todd Gack; 04-28-2012 at 02:28 AM.
There is really a twitter campaign going to try and persuade Chevy and/or Honda to lease an Indy Car race team an engine for the Indianapolis 500?
Holy smokes. This is what it has come to?
Hell yeah. That's much more exciting than watching a guy in his third and final attempt at 5:40 on Bump Day come past the start/finish line and waiting for Tom Carnegie to tell us if the first lap was fast enough to bump his way into the field.
I say they broadcast Lease Day. Watch teams scramble to be granted the 33rd and final engine lease before the guy in the tower shoots his gun at 6:00 on the dot.
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