A Clean Slate

**doitagain** · 04-07-2012 02:36 AM

A New Hope

An Unwritten Page

There's been a lot of drama and turmoil on these pages lately. A lot of it unnecessary, not useful. Much of it a legacy of the rough but amazing journey we've been through, together.

The heck with it. Let's wipe the slate clean.

We hope to re-open the Current Events forum soon, where civil, reasonably supported disucssions of current events (and political issues) can occur, in keeping with the standard always held in the rest of TrackForum.

Remember the lessons. Carry forward the worthwhile. Leave the worn-out, the painful, the baggage behind. I'm going to. I hope you can, too.

As always, your thoughtful and sincere participation at TrackForum is always appreciated.

Thank you very, very much!

**Antoneli** · 04-07-2012 09:36 AM

I am going to try very, very hard.

**Doc Austin** · 04-07-2012 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by doitagain

We hope to re-open the Current Events forum soon, where civil, reasonably supported disucssions of current events (and political issues) can occur, in keeping with the standard always held in the rest of TrackForum.

That's the way it was supposed to be before, and for the most part it was. What's going to be different?

**mclarke** · 04-07-2012 12:52 PM

Good luck, I hope this approach is successful........................................ .................but keep your powder dry.

**BigWheelHawaii** · 04-07-2012 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by doitagain

A New Hope

An Unwritten Page

The heck with it. Let's wipe the slate clean.

Remember the lessons. Carry forward the worthwhile. Leave the worn-out, the painful, the baggage behind. I'm going to. I hope you can, too.

As always, your thoughtful and sincere participation at TrackForum is always appreciated.

Thank you very, very much!

Aloha,,, Do It Too Me Again,,,

Good,,,

I know passions run high, heck I have pizz'd off every
member here, at one time or another... "Many More
Than Once"... We are in trouble in this country, and
extremely polarized... Maybe to the point of being,
nonrecoverable...

The Heck With It. Let's Wipe the Slate Clean.

I hope, "We" are going to bring back all the members on
the CE forum that have been ban'd, that's what I hope...
I hope "We" are really going to start with a clean slate...

There are some "Old" members missing right now,
members that have a long history here at TF... Hope
they ALL make it back... Clean Up Man, being one...
I know the main stay at TF, is Indy Car, and for me,
I am all done... But will stick around, just to see it there is
an improvement,,, one that I can enjoy... Now,,,
THAT'S FOR ME, and of course, the "Graylady" is about
to wake, after a long winters sleep...

We are different, and I am not sure all of us, can or will
ever come together... Mister "Do It To It",,, I also know, that
I DON'T know all in "Inside Info", so I am sure there
are situations, that I don't need to know, nor would
I understand... This too is a business,,, and business first...

Good Luck,,, Do It To It Hewett,,, Agian

Big

**comfortably numb** · 04-09-2012 01:20 AM

Seems to me that the mission of the forum is important. Is it to be a place of free expression or is it to be a place of easy moderation?

There a lot of things that go on which are not major infractions but seem like foxtails in the sweat socks.
Little irritants which I would prefer not occur, but nonetheless stand beneath the sun which is free speech.
These include:
The impossible hypothetical.
Too often arguments are countered with sentences which begin "I wonder what the reaction would be if..." Well, that hasn't happened and that isn't the topic at hand and so the comment is needless.
Stereotyping.
We are not permitted and should not say things such as blacks are lazy and steal all the time. No explanation necessary.
But both sides lob generalizations such as "All liberals..." and "All Republicans..."
Yes, there always will be instances where this occurs. So discuss the instance that is in the here and now and leave history out of it.
Unimportant Historical References
From the spelling of potatoe to it's a waste to lose one's mind to 57 states to inventing the internet...
Sheesh....We've heard it all before. Just because it has happened within the last two decades doe not make it relevant to any subject at hand.
Is the CE Representative of TF?
Someone commented to me that the best reason for getting rid of the CE is because TF is by design and Indy Racing site and that having unsavory discussions reflects badly on the site and Indy fans. I don't agree with this, but I thought I would just throw it out there.

Now, all this being said I don't think any of the above can be moderated or should be moderated. And I don't think that 100% civil discourse can EVER be achieved---not when the discussion is society. Everyone around here who sticks a verbal needle is entitled to do so. So I believe that the best solution is a forum which is free from profanity and threats, but that everything else is OK. Put a disclaimer on the door that those who enter be warned: This the no hold barred section of TF.

S

**paper** · 04-09-2012 05:39 AM

the CE forum was a perfect example of the reality of the division that exists once you get up from your keyboard, whether its back or not ,, the country goes on divided right now, that forum just shows it here amongst us,

**hdolan** · 04-09-2012 09:34 AM

"Is the CE Representative of TF?
Someone commented to me that the best reason for getting rid of the CE is because TF is by design and Indy Racing site and that having unsavory discussions reflects badly on the site and Indy fans. I don't agree with this, but I thought I would just throw it out there."

The IndyCar Forum is every bit as divided as CE, if not more so. Also, the denigration of other series and its fans is, if not commonplace, not unusual. I've been called both a xenophobe and racists on that forum. So, yes, in that sense CE is representative of TF.

**doitagain** · 04-09-2012 09:56 AM

Others have been called communists, nazist, and baby-killers, too, for their political opinions, or of variously bending over or swallowing things in derogatory way for their choice in racing.

It's generally frowned upon. Usually moderated in some way.

If you know of a better-run forum of a similar type, we always appreciate the link to an opportunity to see a good learning example.

**hdolan** · 04-09-2012 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by doitagain

Others have been called communists, nazist, and baby-killers, too, for their political opinions, or of variously bending over or swallowing things in derogatory way for their choice in racing.

It's generally frowned upon. Usually moderated in some way.

If you know of a better-run forum of a similar type, we always appreciate the link to an opportunity to see a good learning example.

I understand all that. Simply replying to Numb's post. The point is, CE is similar to the IndyCar Forum when it comes to ragtime. Of course, your opinion may differ.

**doitagain** · 04-09-2012 10:32 AM

It does.

Most people share that sentiment.

**sifaka** · 04-09-2012 10:37 AM

I would simply like it that personal comments are not allowed, everything else is fair game. It took me some time to realize that many things that are routinely posted are personal comments that have no place here. This means everything from "here let me help you with your reading comprehension problem" to "you are a sick individual", through "I'll take some of what he's smoking". Would absent themselves from the CE forum.

I would think that personalizing public figures would be acceptable, even if in the past we have tried to eliminate that. Saying that Obama is a failed president, or that he is hypocritical is fair game, as is saying that Cheney is a horrible person or that Bush was an idiot when it came to foreign policy. They don't need to defend themselves and won't be hurt by the comments posted here, so let them be. It will be interesting to see what effect there is of such comments if the poster can not be personally attacked. Who knows, maybe we'll discover that posting one's negaaive opinion of a public figure you like is not the end of the world.

**Doc Austin** · 04-09-2012 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by sifaka

I would simply like it that personal comments are not allowed,

Not everyone realizes that the moment they make a personal reference, they have conceded the entire debate.

It would be cool if the mods could just lock a person off that particular thread the moment that person made a personal reference and have a big red LOSE on thier post. After awhile people would get so tired of that they would just stick to the debate.

How horrible could that be?

This means everything from "here let me help you with your reading comprehension problem".......

We have one "contributor" who does that with every single person who disagrees with him. Just for fun I disagree with him (politely) and then report his response.

I really can't imagine how the "new" CE forum could be any different. Track Forum isn't going to get away from their mission statement and way of doing things. The biggest reason I come here is because it is the only place I know of where everyone is expected to debate fairly. I hop[e that part never changes even a little.

About the only thing I see that can be done differently and have the place still be Track Forum is a little heavier moderation in the CE forum. Sif is right that the place might change a little if the personal references were more heavilly punished. I know the only time I ever get into trouble is retaliating to an insult. By now I should know better but most of us are too proud to just let a dis slide by.

I'm sure Track forum can do it. Good grief, if the mods handled the split they can sure handle little things like nuclear war, economic armageddon, genocide, December 21st 2012, and all of that.

Originally Posted by doitagain

If you know of a better-run forum of a similar type, we always appreciate the link to an opportunity to see a good learning example.

Try this one.

**fasteddy** · 04-09-2012 11:11 AM

I wondered what happened to the CE forum. I used to post fairly consistently there but stopped about a couple months ago. I will try to stay away from the new one as well.

**comfortably numb** · 04-09-2012 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by hdolan

"Is the CE Representative of TF?
Someone commented to me that the best reason for getting rid of the CE is because TF is by design and Indy Racing site and that having unsavory discussions reflects badly on the site and Indy fans. I don't agree with this, but I thought I would just throw it out there."

The IndyCar Forum is every bit as divided as CE, if not more so. Also, the denigration of other series and its fans is, if not commonplace, not unusual. I've been called both a xenophobe and racists ont aht forum. So, yes, in that sense CE is representative of TF.

I should have said is the CE a bad reflection of.... Clearly it is representative.

**sifaka** · 04-09-2012 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Doc Austin

It would be cool if the mods could just lock a person off that particular thread the moment that person made a personal reference and have a big red LOSE on thier post. After awhile people would get so tired of that they would just stick to the debate.

How horrible could that be?

This is an excellent idea!
One of the problems is that currently, except in egregious cases, no one knows when someone has received a reprimand. Additionally, we don't get to see what comments resulted in removal b y the mods. So it is hard to know when something may have crossed the line, that we didn't think did. Lastly, people want to participate in threads, so locking a poster out of a thread where they crossed the line is excellent punishment and it allows them and others to learn from their mistakes. I suspect that when one realizes that telling someone else to improve their reading comprehension could result in being locked out of the thread, they might think twice.
Doc's approach would give the mods a much lesser punishment than a vacation for banning, so it could be much more often applied. I can image that the whole tenor of the place would change. All it would take was the first thread where everyone was locked out for personal insults for people to get the message.

Great Idea Doc.

**comfortably numb** · 04-09-2012 11:56 AM

We could always send them here:

**Outlaw** · 04-09-2012 02:49 PM

I don't see why you need the CE forum. Since it has been shut down the world hasn't come to an end, the United States hasn't ceded to another government. I see no compelling reason that a racing forum needs something like that. I have heard the argument that if people didn't have the forum available to them here that they will just go somewhere else. If that is the case let them go. To me that is like saying that you have to allow drugs and prostitution in your town because if you don't the people will just go somewhere else to get that.

**BigWheelHawaii** · 04-09-2012 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by comfortably numb

We could always send them here:

..

Aloha Num,,,

That is simply hilarious,,, you a very funny man...

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Make Your Trip More Enjoyable,,,

"Get Out of Town",,,, ASAP... LOL

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pipes just a chugg'en, early morning sunrise, glad to be on
the road again, and with the stereo blaring "Dueling Banjos",,,

Pure and Utter Enjoyment...

Bingo,,, You Win Another for Humor,,, funny man...

Big

PS: The "Stereo" never plays anything,,,
but Jimmy Reed,,, now that's a fact...

**Doctorindy** · 04-09-2012 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I don't see why you need the CE forum. Since it has been shut down the world hasn't come to an end, the United States hasn't ceded to another government. I see no compelling reason that a racing forum needs something like that. I have heard the argument that if people didn't have the forum available to them here that they will just go somewhere else. If that is the case let them go.

I'm beginning to agree with that sentiment. Nothing is more irritating to me that the bevy of posters who sign up at TF (and re-sign up after they're banned) and do absolutely nothing around here except post in CE. As mentioned, this is not a political forum, it is a racing forum. CE should be something to pass the time during the offseason and on "slow days." Instead, IIRC, it had the second-highest number of threads/post...second only to rev-ed's IZOD IndyCar Series. People are/were clearly joining simply to troll on CE, whereas that's something much more appropriate on political sites (although some of those can be toxic).

It won't be a popular decision around here, especially since it's an election year, but I wouldn't have a problem if it never came back.

**FTHurley** · 04-09-2012 04:13 PM

I sometimes wish there was a +1 feature like in Google+ where people could +1 posts. Or maybe a vote-up/vote-down mechanism. There have been times (like when I got into it with dog-ring a few weeks ago) when knowing whether you're the only damn one with the problem might have been helpful. I can also see the idea of instantaneous social justice being a very bad idea, since a dozen well-coordinated idiots could really swing the tenor of fan comments, and while I don't think the series uses TrackForum to plan its future, it IS one source of fan input. Maybe it could just be used in the CE forum? It would let people quietly make the crazy go away without without requiring mod input and without feeding the crazy via responses.

That all said, it doesn't matter much to me in the end. I stayed out of the CE forum almost entirely. As I said once (not really targeting any poster in particular), political debate gets much easier when you decided you just don't respect anybody else's opinion enough to listen to it.

**comfortably numb** · 04-09-2012 04:28 PM

...except all the 'voting' would be along socio-political lines and so would really say nothing about what was posted no mater how much or how little merit it had.

**FTHurley** · 04-09-2012 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by comfortably numb

...except all the 'voting' would be along socio-political lines and so would really say nothing about what was posted no mater how much or how little merit it had.

But it would be quieter ...

**window** · 04-09-2012 09:39 PM

If it's not brought back because the mods don't want to deal with it, that's fine. But because this is ostensibly a racing hangout, let's not have a CE forum? Then hang out in the racing (Motorsports) department and don't open the CE door. Seems pretty simple.

**Doc Austin** · 04-09-2012 11:00 PM

Unfortunately, if the Track Forum CE forum goes away, there will be absolutely nowhere on the internet where you can fairly debate current events. That's why I am glad it is staying around.

If people don't like it, they don't have to go there. Stay off CE and it won't effect you. How much more simple could it possibly be?

**hdolan** · 04-09-2012 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Doc Austin

Unfortunately, if the Track Forum CE forum goes away, there will be absolutely nowhere on the internet where you can fairly debate current events.

That is not true...

http://mikescomputersllc.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4

**comfortably numb** · 04-09-2012 11:39 PM

Yeah, that's a hotbed...

**Doc Austin** · 04-10-2012 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by hdolan

That is not true...

http://mikescomputersllc.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4

My apologies for forgetting about your forum.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to sign in, but I do look in from time to time.

**indyracefan** · 04-10-2012 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I don't see why you need the CE forum. Since it has been shut down the world hasn't come to an end, the United States hasn't ceded to another government. I see no compelling reason that a racing forum needs something like that. I have heard the argument that if people didn't have the forum available to them here that they will just go somewhere else. If that is the case let them go. To me that is like saying that you have to allow drugs and prostitution in your town because if you don't the people will just go somewhere else to get that.