Second- and Third-Generation Drivers: Is there some pattern?

[JimmyB10]

Vuky, Pancho and JP all seemed like nice guys in addition to being good (if not great) drivers. Tony Bettenhausen, too. Al Jr. has real problems despite seeming to me to have the right attitute (I think the tequila in Mom Unser's famous chili suggests where that issue originates). Michael seems like a pretty sensible and decent guy, despite having a giant stick up his a$$. From all reports I gather Arie Jr. is an okay guy (although I have heard (I think) that his mother can be a real stage-mom b*tch, though no one will name names to let me know if I accuse her wrongfully or not).

All of the above seem relatively humble and nice compared to the current crop.

I know I'm forgetting a ton, but I am in a '60s mood at the moment and can't think of anyone else besides Ludwig Heimrath Jr. (saw his father race in my first-ever pavement Champ Car race) Oh yeah, Johnny Unser, Robby, and Alfred, A J Foyt IV, Anthony Foyt. I think there are issues there with a few of them, but I am not really very familiar with any of them.

But Graham and Marco? They both strike me as having a sense of entitlement and lack of humility that really rubs me the wrong way. Is it just me? Marco turned me off when he had real trouble admitting how stupid his move was that took out both TK and Sarah at Indy in 2008 (and if I'm not mistaken proeceeded to made a similar mistake at Milwaukee the next week that took out several cars), and Graham rarely seems to think he has ever done anything wrong since the day he was born, including the most blatant block of the 21st Century last week. Stand these prima donnas next to Hinch or Newgarden, and you will have three guys telling you how great Graham is and three guys telling you how great Marco is. JMO.

I haven't really thought this on through, but it is a subject that has bubbled around my consciousness since they both came on the scene about six years ago. So I'll ask now. Is it me? Do you see any noticeable pattern in second- and third-generation IndyCar drivers today, and are today's crop different from those that have come before?

[Formula Indy]

I think Marco has been humbled a bit over the last couple of years and has changed a lot (for the better) since joining the series. Graham was fine to me until joining Ganassi. I think his attitude changed when he realized he wasn't going to be driving a car as competitive as the Target cars. I think that irks him and lately it seems to come across through his personality .

[THE BEAR]

The farther they fall from the tree, the less well developed the fruit.

Don't even get me started on Marco. That kid REALLY could be the poster child for spoiled brats. If it wasn't a family ride, there would be no ride.

AJ knew that Quatro was never going to be anything other than a field filler, so he ended it quickly unless the kid was willing to step up. He wasn't.

The Unsers, after Al Jr, and the Jones (somewhat through circumstances of wrecks) just never had what it takes.

Mears, nephew, has done okay.....but not really a standout.

Martin's son gave it up, even though he was apparently running well in the lesser series.

The Wallace kid......well, once again, just doesn't seem to have what it takes.

Why is it? The families have so much from racing that the kids have no idea what it takes to work hard. Davey Allison go it, but was that a different generation? Would Adam Petty ever have made it? The Lyundyk kid didn't, even though the old man always seemed polite and humble.

Just seems that the farther you get friom the people who were real champions, the gene pool seems to get dilluted.

[Lemming51]

When Dad, Uncle, Granddad, etc. are extremely successful, then there seems to be both a lot of pressure on the next-gen drivers to be as good, and also a sense of entitlement. I think the expectations are too high, and the legacies naturally can't match them (Michael Andretti and Jacques Villenueve being exceptions).

Part of that is that the very successful ancester got there through their own dedication and hard work. Mario or AJ or Big Al didn't get rides (and paid) early on based on their name, but on their results. The legacy may put in the hours, but the motivation is different. Their early rides come easier, and they're often not as "hungry".

On the other hand, racers who had marginal or less successful parentage often over-acheive. e.g. Buddy Lazier (and even Jaques) v. Bob Lazier.

That's my opinion, I could be wrong.

[OpenWheelSnob87]

First post after lurking for a while, Woo! Anyways, I often wonder if in the case of Graham and Marco, the criticism is unfair. (wondering why no one has mentioned Scheckter here...) People very often forget how young these guys are. Keep in mind that while Al Jr. might not be a good example to follow off the track, he's widely regarded as a smashing success. Why bring him up? Well, Al Unser Jr. was a rookie in 1982. His first CART title was 1990 and his first Indy 500 came in 1992. I know in the world of Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, and other young phenoms we expect success, but Marco and Graham still have time for great success.

Its also not like they haven't done anything. Marco has 2 wins, 3 top 5 Indy finishes, was great in a Honda F1 test, and seems to be figuring it out lately. Meanwhile Graham is the youngest race winner in Indycar history and despite having a Honda has been giving the top guys all they can handle.

I think the big frustration with these two is that the series needs them for media attention and they're just not there yet. Given maturation time, there's plenty of hope for them, and the series.

[Mario4ever]

First post after lurking for a while, Woo! Anyways, I often wonder if in the case of Graham and Marco, the criticism is unfair. (wondering why no one has mentioned Scheckter here...) People very often forget how young these guys are. Keep in mind that while Al Jr. might not be a good example to follow off the track, he's widely regarded as a smashing success. Why bring him up? Well, Al Unser Jr. was a rookie in 1982. His first CART title was 1990 and his first Indy 500 came in 1992. I know in the world of Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, and other young phenoms we expect success, but Marco and Graham still have time for great success.

Its also not like they haven't done anything. Marco has 2 wins, 3 top 5 Indy finishes, was great in a Honda F1 test, and seems to be figuring it out lately. Meanwhile Graham is the youngest race winner in Indycar history and despite having a Honda has been giving the top guys all they can handle.

I think the big frustration with these two is that the series needs them for media attention and they're just not there yet. Given maturation time, there's plenty of hope for them, and the series.

Excellent first post. Welcome aboard!

[11rowsof3]

What people fail to think about is how GOOD drivers like Marco and Graham are.

It's so easy to say "oh they are just here because of their last name". Well, for every Marco, Graham (or Dale Jr) - there are HUNDREDS of kids we never even hear of that flamed out in go carts, late models, etc.

[lotuspoweredbyford]

The problem is, everyone wants these guys to be the equal of their dad.

In Richard Petty's case, he exceeded even what his hall of fame father accomplished.

But Kyle didn't, because Kyle had other interests. Kyle has said Adam was the son Richard always wanted, because Adam was so focused on racing.

If Kyle was Kyle Smith, and put up the same career, I think people would say, ok, solid driver, won some races, finished in the top 5 in the cup standings (in the real cup standings, not the jokey chase), and nobody would see him as a disappointment.

[11rowsof3]

First post after lurking for a while, Woo! Anyways, I often wonder if in the case of Graham and Marco, the criticism is unfair. (wondering why no one has mentioned Scheckter here...) People very often forget how young these guys are. Keep in mind that while Al Jr. might not be a good example to follow off the track, he's widely regarded as a smashing success. Why bring him up? Well, Al Unser Jr. was a rookie in 1982. His first CART title was 1990 and his first Indy 500 came in 1992. I know in the world of Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, and other young phenoms we expect success, but Marco and Graham still have time for great success.

Its also not like they haven't done anything. Marco has 2 wins, 3 top 5 Indy finishes, was great in a Honda F1 test, and seems to be figuring it out lately. Meanwhile Graham is the youngest race winner in Indycar history and despite having a Honda has been giving the top guys all they can handle.

I think the big frustration with these two is that the series needs them for media attention and they're just not there yet. Given maturation time, there's plenty of hope for them, and the series.

Thank you!!! Great post!

[Dez1013]

The fathers in these cases went out to race, it was what they did and their passion. The kids grew up around it and got into it maybe because that is all they knew growing up. Maybe they don't have the same drive or passion and only race because they think that is what is expected of them. Just a thought.

[since 1981]

The fathers in these cases went out to race, it was what they did and their passion. The kids grew up around it and got into it maybe because that is all they knew growing up. Maybe they don't have the same drive or passion and only race because they think that is what is expected of them. Just a thought.

I certianly hope that Marco and Graham aren't here only because it is what they feel is expected of them!

But I agree with the 'grew up with it' part. This wasn't something 'new' to them, so it might not feel quite the same as when a kid who's dad was a factory worker decides "I'm going to be a doctor/lawyer/whatever" & then sets out to make it happen. In a sense, kids like Marco and Graham may never quite get that clear 'cut off point' between youth and adult - at least not as early as someone in my above example - because being a racing driver is a bit more of a continuation of growing up the child of a racing driver.

[lotuspoweredbyford]

The fathers in these cases went out to race, it was what they did and their passion. The kids grew up around it and got into it maybe because that is all they knew growing up. Maybe they don't have the same drive or passion and only race because they think that is what is expected of them. Just a thought.

There is something to be said for this point of view.

For example Bill Vukovich II has said he raced because it was a way to make a buck, where Billy Vukovich III really loved racing.

[OpenWheelSnob87]

I can go either way on the argument about the passion of younger generations. Sure some younger guys may be entitled, but others grow up spoon fed on the stories of legends emphasized by the context of their dad's careers. I mean, Graham Rahal is named after Graham Hill, and speaks constantly in interviews about making his own name and not wanting to dive for RLR. I really think if you're not passionate you don't last long at the top rung, and flame out quickly like the youngest Unsers, A.J. IV, and others.

[airborn]

I realize that Marco is not very personable and should have better results, but I think he gets a bad rap. And contrary to popular opinion, I don't think his move underneath Kanaan at Indy was a bad or dumb move--it was for 2nd place and Dixon had just cleared Kanaan. It sucked for Kanaan and Fisher that he got up into the marbles, but the outcry against Marco seemed to be knee-jerk and gratuitous--like a lot of the complaints against him. It was also fed by Kanaan's complaints which are not uncommon and often self-serving.

As for Graham, I might be in the minority on this, but I have always found him to be arrogant and aloof (he was this way when I met him, too). I am not saying that Marco is not aloof or arrogant, but he seems to get (or used to get) a lot more flak for this than Graham.

[Antoneli]

They both rub me the wrong way a lot, but I can't imagine what the pressure must be like when EVERYONE is expecting you to fill a very big pair of shoes very quickly.

[Hitokiri]

But Graham and Marco? They both strike me as having a sense of entitlement and lack of humility that really rubs me the wrong way. Is it just me?

Haha...that's what everyone says about the generation drivers no matter how good or bad they are. I think a person would be fool if he or she said that these generation drivers got up the later without some influence of their fathers or their last names. I don't car if you're talking about Andretti, Unser, Rahal, or even Foyt IV.

I honestly believe if Marco didn't have his last name and his dad/grandfather to back him up he would have washed from the American open wheel scene long ago. I think people would have said that he had skill but there's no doubt his father had something to do with the Service Central deal and his last name even gave him some help from Randy Bernard as well. At least Rahal had the balls separate from his dad and explore the world and do his own thing. Marco....I'm not sure he has the guts to do that.

[Glenn]

Haha...that's what everyone says about the generation drivers no matter how good or bad they are. I think a person would be fool if he or she said that these generation drivers got up the later without some influence of their fathers or their last names. I don't car if you're talking about Andretti, Unser, Rahal, or even Foyt IV.

I honestly believe if Marco didn't have his last name and his dad/grandfather to back him up he would have washed from the American open wheel scene long ago. I think people would have said that he had skill but there's no doubt his father had something to do with the Service Central deal and his last name even gave him some help from Randy Bernard as well. At least Rahal had the balls separate from his dad and explore the world and do his own thing. Marco....I'm not sure he has the guts to do that.

I don't think it's a matter of Graham having guts and Marco not. I think it's a matter of necessity. Bobby didn't have funding for Graham so he HAD TO go out on his own, no choice. Doesn't take guts when it's a necessity. I will give him credit for getting Service Central and finding a ride with Ganassi, that took some savvy. As far as Marco, his Dad had the funding so he put him in a car. Not surprising, Dad's have a tendency to do that. I really think we are going to see some excellent racing from the young Andretti this coming season.

[OpenWheelSnob87]

Haha...that's what everyone says about the generation drivers no matter how good or bad they are. I think a person would be fool if he or she said that these generation drivers got up the later without some influence of their fathers or their last names. I don't car if you're talking about Andretti, Unser, Rahal, or even Foyt IV.

I honestly believe if Marco didn't have his last name and his dad/grandfather to back him up he would have washed from the American open wheel scene long ago. I think people would have said that he had skill but there's no doubt his father had something to do with the Service Central deal and his last name even gave him some help from Randy Bernard as well. At least Rahal had the balls separate from his dad and explore the world and do his own thing. Marco....I'm not sure he has the guts to do that.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but the part about Marco not having the balls to leave his Dad's team doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me. What do you want him to do exactly? He ran the 24 Hours of LeMans last year, has run A1GP for team USA, and tested with Honda F1, none of which are Andretti. Besides, where would he go that's a better seat? If he doesn't get a Ganassi or Penske offer, that is a huge step down in car. You wouldn't hold J.R. Hildebrand or Josef Newgarden to this standard, so why Marco?

Graham is a straw argument too. RLR wasn't in champ car where he started, and he jumped into a Newman Haas ride, which was top tier. When he switched, he had the option of a Ganassi b-seat or his dad's team starting back up, and he picked the better seat. He would have been stupid to take the RLR seat, thus I don't think he has some moral high ground to stand on.

[Z28]

It's difficult to say with second or third generation drivers. They grow up in racing. Go back to AJ Foyt jr. Tony was a mechanic so it's not like his father was a postal worker and somehow he developed the desire to race. It's mostly unrealistic expectations by others that a son will match or exceed the accomplishments of his father. Jay and Greg Penske never really raced and Roger jr. wasn't exactly a house of fire. Both of Rick Mears' sons raced but Roger's son Casey went farther than either of them.


If you look at other sports it's about the same as racing. Sons often not only play the same sport as their father, they often attend the same college and it's not unusual for a son to get drafted by or traded to the team his father played for. Most sons don't measure up to their fathers some do much better like Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey jr.

There was an interview with John Lucas III rookie of the Chicago Bulls. His father was an NBA All Star and he was around the game growing up, as a ball boy with his father's teams, in the locker room, players came to his house. He said when he got to the NBA he already knew what is was like to be an NBA player, unlike other rookies who come in with no history or knowledge of the difference between the pros and college. That doesn't mean Lucas III will have the talent to be as good as his father but he isn't held back by being overwhelmed by the new experience.

And it's like that in racing. Most kids with fathers that raced understand that they need to interact with the team, sponsors and fans because sheer talent is no longer enough. It would seem that any young driver should know that but if their rich dad always owned the team coming up and paid for their ride they may get a rude awakening when it costs too much for dad and they are a contract employee of someone else and things are different. It might be a kid's first job and it's a tough industry for a first job experience.

[Captain Spyro]

I believe it is fair to say that both Rahal and Andretti would be criticized regardless of any situation. Were they doing better than they are now, they would still be considered talentless, arrogant, and only winning because of their equipment. Doesn't really matter. They are both talented; they're just not the well-rounded packages that their fathers and/or grandfathers were.

has run A1GP for team USA

Actually, for the last few years of A1GP, the A1 Team USA was run by Andretti Green, so take that however you will.

[JimmyB10]

...
And contrary to popular opinion, I don't think his move underneath Kanaan at Indy was a bad or dumb move--it was for 2nd place and Dixon had just cleared Kanaan. It sucked for Kanaan and Fisher that he got up into the marbles, but the outcry against Marco seemed to be knee-jerk and gratuitous--like a lot of the complaints against him. It was also fed by Kanaan's complaints which are not uncommon and often self-serving
...

Disagree very strongly. The move was indeed very dumb, because 1) TK was leading to that point, not some slow back marker who would have seriously slowed Marco down and made it hard to stay with Dixon, and even if this wasn't the case, 2) it was barely halfway through the race! At Indy, it's such a cliché that people repeat it without even thinking about it, but you can't win if youare not there at the end; leading 199 laps is meaningless if you don't lead number 200. There were about 100 more to go. Losing a couple car lengths at that point means absolutely nothing. Traffic does that, then you catch back up when the leader hits traffic again in front of you. And, 3) it was his own teammate. No driver should have expected a move that late, on the OTHER side that Dixon had passed from, but you just do not do that to a teammate, expecially one who had been leading to that point and on a track that has a groove barely one car wide and marbles everywhere else. TK was fairly restrained on this, and he had every right to throw Marco under a bus and drive it himself, back up and run over him again. Michael was harsher, even on camera, and Marco seemed to apologize only because he knew how mad his father was, not because he understood why it was so boneheaded. My reaction was not knee-jerk, because I didn't talk to anyone about it for a month or two. I had my impression of it, but until that moment I had nothing in particular against Marco; it wasn't until someone I spoke to gave Marco a total free pass on it (saying TK should have been expecting it, which is absurd to me) that I went back and watched the video 20 or 30 times, and it reinforced my initial impression and amplified it. Dixon's pass was late but clean because he had such a good run and TK knew he was there. Marco was way late as TK was already turning in and he passed on the other side, where TK had no reason to expect him, because there is no reason to pass like that at halfway through the race on your teammate. A back marker several mph off your pace, yeah you can do that.

[smuff76]

It's also easy to pick apart Quattro, but given his cars, youth, lack of engineering and being saddled with a Toyota motor that left the Ganassi cars out of the top 10 in quals at Indy the deck was pretty well stacked against him from the drop of the hat. When he was running for Vision he was regularly faster than Ed Carpenter while driving a car that made RHR cry at Indy............

He certainly didn't, and couldn't, live up to AJ.................. but who could.

[JimmyB10]

Haha...that's what everyone says about the generation drivers no matter how good or bad they are.

Interesting you should say that, because I mentioned over a dozen drivers, yet Marco and Graham were the only ones I described this way. I don't see it in every second- and third-generation driver, I see it in them.

Someone mentioned that we forgot Tomas. He seems a very talented driver, but without as much common sense and patience as he needs or his father had. Haven't seen anything that makes me question his attitude, he is just reckless and impatient.

[JimmyB10]

It's also easy to pick apart Quattro, but given his cars, youth, lack of engineering and being saddled with a Toyota motor that left the Ganassi cars out of the top 10 in quals at Indy the deck was pretty well stacked against him from the drop of the hat. When he was running for Vision he was regularly faster than Ed Carpenter while driving a car that made RHR cry at Indy............

He certainly didn't, and couldn't, live up to AJ.................. but who could.

Did you watch that Riverside video in the Jimmy Clark anniversary thread? AJ was classic! Any other time he would have stopped to punch Al Miller in the face but he was too concerned with running back to the pits on foot to commandeer Jim McElreath's car for enough points to beat Mario for the championship that he ran right by him without even a glance. He yanked the leader of the race so he could win the championship! Watching Bobby Unser misjudge the braking point in the same turn about a dozen times was amusing, also. Great stuff. I probably missed dozens of these broadcasts because my dad dragged us to local midgets or sprints on Saturdays, and there were no VCRs back then.

[Hardscrabble]

The fathers in these cases went out to race, it was what they did and their passion. The kids grew up around it and got into it maybe because that is all they knew growing up. Maybe they don't have the same drive or passion and only race because they think that is what is expected of them. Just a thought.

Kyle Petty said about as much in the documentary "Petty Blue"...where he grew up, all his neighbors were farmers, as had their Daddyies and their Grand-Daddies...

Well, in Kyle's case, his Daddy and Grand-Daddy had been racecar drivers so Kyle just figured that is what was expected of him...

Not much different than a lot of families, really...I know people who have been truck drivers, pipe fitters, lawyers or in the car business for generations...

[Openracer]

Given that most teenagers lack the funding to run a current and pro prepped Formula Atlantic car in SCCA (Rahal) or a Barber or Indy Lights car (Andretti) to even get into consideration for Indycar, I'd say they had help.

[JimmyB10]

Given that most teenagers lack the funding to run a current and pro prepped Formula Atlantic car in SCCA (Rahal) or a Barber or Indy Lights car (Andretti) to even get into consideration for Indycar, I'd say they had help.

Most next-gens do to one extent or another. I heard Michael went to every driving school in North America twice, and those places are not cheap. It's a good thing, too, because if you watch Mario's explanation of what it takes to be good driver in in the "Drive to Win" instructional video, you see that he can't express a clear thought on the subject without contradicting what he just said five minutes ago, so Michael needed to get clear instruction somewhere. Mario drove old school, totally by instinct and the only thing Michael seems to have learned specifically from Mario was "get the lead early and go as fast as you can until the car breaks."

Both Marco and Graham have a lot of talent (perhaps not as much as they think, or maybe it's maturity they lack), but it is their attitude that rubs me the wrong way. I'm surprised no one has picked up on my comment on the contrast between them and a Hinch or a Newgarden or guys like that. Ask any one of those four and they'll all tell you how great Marco and Graham are, but you won't see Hinch or Josef blowing their own horn. They have class and humility and with them it's not all about "me." (Oh, God, if Helio has a son, won't he be an insufferable monster? I might just switch to F1 then...)

[Glenn]

Most next-gens do to one extent or another. I heard Michael went to every driving school in North America twice, and those places are not cheap. It's a good thing, too, because if you watch Mario's explanation of what it takes to be good driver in in the "Drive to Win" instructional video, you see that he can't express a clear thought on the subject without contradicting what he just said five minutes ago, so Michael needed to get clear instruction somewhere. Mario drove old school, totally by instinct and the only thing Michael seems to have learned specifically from Mario was "get the lead early and go as fast as you can until the car breaks."

Both Marco and Graham have a lot of talent (perhaps not as much as they think, or maybe it's maturity they lack), but it is their attitude that rubs me the wrong way. I'm surprised no one has picked up on my comment on the contrast between them and a Hinch or a Newgarden or guys like that. Ask any one of those four and they'll all tell you how great Marco and Graham are, but you won't see Hinch or Josef blowing their own horn. They have class and humility and with them it's not all about "me." (Oh, God, if Helio has a son, won't he be an insufferable monster? I might just switch to F1 then...)

I'm not sure what it is about Marco, seems somewhat aloof, but it could be shyness. Graham comes across much better. But Hinch and Newgarden are pros when it comes to working the media.

Newgarden is so well spoken for such a young man, and being fast doesn't hurt either. I watched the video he made where he interviewed people and I just couldn't believe how natural he was in front of the camera.

By comparison, the little lady that used to drive Indycars was very clumsy in front of the camera with all of her "you knows" and "aaahhhhs". But I did enjoy her interview at Fontana this year, had to be the funniest video of the year. Of course, she didn't mean for it to be funny when she said "the Hendrick engine guys explained that when the water goes away there’s no steam to heat the engine up." CLASSIC!

[BADGER]

Marco and Graham are examples of how good you can become if you're exposed to racing at a young age and are given the best equipment to run with little other worries. I saw Graham's cousin race at the club level when he was a young kid. When he started, he was a mid pack talent. It was only after running a kart multiple days throughout the week all summer with a paid mechanic that he became a good driver. I am pretty sure Graham's career was much like his cousins but he kept up and never stopped racing. I have seen kids with much more natural talent, but not the same finances to develop.

[Littleman]

What people fail to think about is how GOOD drivers like Marco and Graham are.

It's so easy to say "oh they are just here because of their last name". Well, for every Marco, Graham (or Dale Jr) - there are HUNDREDS of kids we never even hear of that flamed out in go carts, late models, etc.

And just how GOOD would they be without all the downforce put into today's cars - something their fathers didn't have. And less GOOD competition, too, today.