As you get older you may start to realize that opinions are easier to hold onto and defend when they are closely aligned with the facts.Originally Posted by Chris Paff
As you get older you may start to realize that opinions are easier to hold onto and defend when they are closely aligned with the facts.
"Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"
Brian's Wish
I guess the easy answers are: 1) don't buy a ticket for bump day and 2) as long as nothing catastrophic happens and there are 33 cars set to go green on 5/27 the rest of it will be forgotten by most.
No man can cause more grief than that one clinging blindly to the vices of his ancestors. - William Faulker
Yeah, it was really sad to hear someone go from "you just don't know what Indy means" to "I learned long ago that Indy is just another race".
A lot of dumb things were said and done during that time frame, on both sides.
"I think of Indianapolis every day of the year, every
hour of the day, and when I sleep, too. Everything I
ever wanted in my life, I found inside the walls of
the Indianapolis Motor Speedway."
- Eddie Sachs.
True, that can be said with any disagreement between parties..
Agreed, unfortunately there weren't enough moderates on either side, or they were shouted down by the fringes.
All Im going to say is those who fail to learn their history are doomed to repeat it. You may continue ad nauseum
RIP Dan Wheldon :(
"Anybody who says the IndyCar Series is not the best championship in the world is a complete idiot in my book." ~Dan Wheldon
don't you go telling me nuttin about my nausem you you you... earwaxminor!! just cuz my nose is a museum piece don't give ya da right to ad nuttin to it!!! hmmph n suchAll Im going to say is those who fail to learn their history are doomed to repeat it. You may continue ad nauseum
returning to the days of ignorant bliss..
Happy Birthday !don't you go telling me nuttin about my nausem you you you... earwaxminor!! just cuz my nose is a museum piece don't give ya da right to ad nuttin to it!!! hmmph n such
I'll be there because it's the fastest (and most interersting) oval racing in the world, and right now it's the fastest series that races at IMS
How that is not good enough for some of you is baffling to me
welp sir.. as i've said soooooo many times.. when you're addicted to coke, you want your coke! not even a sip of some wantabee pepsi...I'll be there because it's the fastest (and most interersting) oval racing in the world, and right now it's the fastest series that races at IMS
How that is not good enough for some of you is baffling to me
but when the coke factory shuts its doors.. welp you're stuck with the pepsi..
kinda looks the same, eh? color, bubbles and such... but it's not my friggin COKE!!
i want my coke!!! but since there isn't any, well i will hold my nose and drink the pepsi; only because i am really really really thirsty!!!
and for sure don't ya go trying to slip me any of that gd RC stuff!!!
so now do ya kinda get it?
Not exactly - what is it about "the fastest (and most interersting) oval racing in the world, and the fastest series that races at IMS" that you don't like - or that you don't agree with?What opportunities are there to have a better experience, in taht regard?
Tryin' ta help here
Do you blame the engine companies, or the series that wanted to race on the cheap? It was known last fall that every added engine would require an increase to the budget of Honda or Chevy and that each would require approval from the top level of the respective company to obtain the budget addendum's required to cover the shortfalls.
If the rest of the racing world outside of those owners and drivers cared about the Indy 500 cared about the 500, the field would not have been filled by one-offs turned full time, dentists and rookies that never bothered to turn a lap in a formula car to start the path to the 500. If the race fans and TV watchers cared so much about the 500, attendance and viewership wouldn't have dropped like a rock the instant the big names left the 500. The only thing to buck the downward trend for Indy popularity was Danica.... a DRIVER.
thank you
On the other hand, that popularity didn't follow the drivers, either. It just disappeared.
It was the conjunction of "all of it" that was popular.
The fact that it isn't or most interesting oval racing I've seen. Nor is it the fastest series that I've seen race at IMS.Not exactly - what is it about "the fastest (and most interersting) oval racing in the world, and the fastest series that races at IMS" that you don't like - or that you don't agree with?
Tryin' ta help here
This isn't a statement on the politics of the split, but a statement on the changes to the sport. What we have today is akin to comparing the UFL of today to the NFL of 20 years ago. We know that the drivers in the field today aren't even the first choices of the owners from a talent perspective... just as the UFL would gladly have almost any player from any current NFL roster over the has beens and never would have beens they field today. We know that the 500 of today clearly draws less public attention than the 500 of the past... just as the championship game of the UFL is nothign compared to the NFL championship of 20 years ago.
The game may look the same, but there is a downgrade to this sport that you can't ignore just because there isn't another game in town.
That's why my original statement included the "right now" part
I would say it's more like comparing the NFC and AFC Division Champions of 1998 to the Super Bowl contenders of 2006This isn't a statement on the politics of the split, but a statement on the changes to the sport. What we have today is akin to comparing the UFL of today to the NFL of 20 years ago. We know that the drivers in the field today aren't even the first choices of the owners from a talent perspective... just as the UFL would gladly have almost any player from any current NFL roster over the has beens and never would have beens they field today. We know that the 500 of today clearly draws less public attention than the 500 of the past... just as the championship game of the UFL is nothign compared to the NFL championship of 20 years ago.
The game may look the same, but there is a downgrade to this sport that you can't ignore just because there isn't another game in town.
And no, there isn't anything that comes close to comparing, for me. Even if the USGP returned, IndyCar still has compelling action and stories.
To me.
But I don't think I'm missing too much here
We didn't get in this position from increasing popularity. We got here because of decreases.
If popularity goes up, then everyone will get more of what they want - better talent, teams, management, venues, equipment, the works. If it goes down, you get the opposite.
No doubt, a lot of people are pulling for the opposite. We need all the fans we can get, but we don't need any of those kind. Those are anti-fans. Many of them don't even know what they are, I guess
I call b.s.
Evidence? Can you show me the drop off in attendance and ratings from 1995 to 1996 at the events that were on the schedule for both seasons? No, because those events still had strong attendance when they had most of the top drivers before the split.
If you want to look at the data you will find that the drop off in popularity was with the retirement and departure of the drivers that raced in the series prior to the split, with a second, weaker correlation to the drivers that they competed against within the first 2 years of the split. The sharpest individual declines to attendance and ratings came with Penske, Andretti and Ganassi teams and drivers departing and crippling the series for good. With the big names came the casual sports fan that will not turn the channel to see the race in Rio, but will turn on a golf event at a course they've never heard of if they are told Tiger is in contention.
Poor comparison. NFC and AFC division champs were the best players on the best teams using the best equipment available at the time and couldn't be considered fundamentally inferior to their predecessorsThat's why my original statement included the "right now" part
I would say it's more like comparing the NFC and AFC Division Champions of 1998 to the Super Bowl contenders of 2006
The Indy 500 does not have the best drivers available, the equipment is inferior to it's potential rather than the best that could be fielded, and has been retarded from a competitive standpoint compared to it's own predecessor.
We've yet to see any strategy that puts the series on a path to meaningfully increased popularity. Continuing to be the "UFL of Indy 500 racing" is not going to get anybody more of what they want. I am willing to acknowledge this fact: If Indycar adds fans at the same rate it has for the past 2 years then neither of us will experience a level of investment in the sport that will allow the kind of competition we had 20 years ago within our lifetimes. We won't even be on track to see the day of a hard sellout at Indy again in our lifetimes.And no, there isn't anything that comes close to comparing, for me. Even if the USGP returned, IndyCar still has compelling action and stories.
To me.
But I don't think I'm missing too much here
We didn't get in this position from increasing popularity. We got here because of decreases.
If popularity goes up, then everyone will get more of what they want - better talent, teams, management, venues, equipment, the works. If it goes down, you get the opposite.
No doubt, a lot of people are pulling for the opposite. We need all the fans we can get, but we don't need any of those kind. Those are anti-fans. Many of them don't even know what they are, I guess
To me, anti-fans are those that are satiated with moral victories and paper progress then talk about how great things will if popularity goes up rather than talk about what it will really take to put this sport on a path to real popularity growth.
Qualifying has become a joke. My gosh it was so diffrent just twenty years ago! We might as well have a game of musical chairs this year. And the losing driver can always buy his way back into the field like RHR did last year. Ernest
Actually, there was a decline in the series overall the longer the Split lasted. The retirements started in 1993, and while they didn't help, they weren't as game changing as the Split.
Your view of the data also doesn't recognize the emergence, though short-lived, of about a million new viewers and attendees to the new IRL schedule. But of course the Split eroded that bump, too.
I think our only disagreement is one of degree, and some of that is always going to be subjective.
What would that entail, in your opinion?
So you think I'm an anti-fan? How would you recommend I go about being a better fan?
I don't mind talking about what it will really take to put this sport on the path to real popularity growth, I just don't think dragging down every discussion with it is productive, really. Here's what I think about that:
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/sho...duct-Promotion
I'd be very curious to see your continued discussion there
Last edited by Turn13; 04-21-2012 at 10:11 PM. Reason: "our" for "out"
Meh, hard times happen. The sport will survive.
Corvette Racing - Chevrolet Corvette C6-R#3 Antonio Garcia/Jan Magnussen/Jordan Taylor, #4 Oliver Gavin/Tommy Milner/Richard Westbrook-FC Bayern MunichNeuer - Lahm, Boateng, Dante, Alaba - Martinez, Schweinsteiger - Robben, Muller, Ribery - Mandzukic
We think.
Prime Minister of Gackland
We hope..
Fair enough, but I don't see it dying off. Hard times happen, especially in light of major changes. I see no reason for it to die off yet. Could be wrong, but meh.We hope..
welp it's like this man...Not exactly - what is it about "the fastest (and most interersting) oval racing in the world, and the fastest series that races at IMS" that you don't like - or that you don't agree with?
Tryin' ta help here
the plant is closed and ya just can't get the product anymore.. it's the "new" version. that new version does not include:
over 100 entries a year
joe blow over in avon building a engine and chassis or two as a one off
5 - 10 veteran drivers walking around helmet in hand looking for a ride the 2nd weekend of qualifying (what second weekend? lol)
all or nothing runs by said drivers after just a few laps practice, with the fans on their feet going nuts
200,000 spectators on pole day and 100,000 on bump day
mom and pop shops supplying engines and specialty parts
the "month of may"
the plant closed and the product is no longer available, you just can't get it.. so go try the new one, pepsi
oh it's not the same but it's kinda similar so maybe you can adapt to it.. after all it's the only one available.
and you can't get a impala ss 396 either.. or dublin dr. pepper..
just sayin, you take what you can get and make do.. it doesn't take away the memories of what a great thing the original version was nor the pining for those times..
hell ya i'll be there, but not with the enthusiasm that was once brought on by all that made up the original version.. it's gone and ain't coming back..
ok, like my late wife... the memories and love will always be in my heart, but hopefully some day there will be another woman.. i may grow to love her, but the late wife will always be the yardstick that i use to measure by.. for it was "perfect". was it just "perfect" for that time in my life? and the next will be "perfect" for this time in my life?
i loved Indy as it was, now that Indy is dead... is the new Indy as good or better? will i ever love the new Indy? so far i say no!! doesn't even hold a candle to the original..
is that better??
Or like how Tim Richmond did it in 1981.
What was done last year was hardly the first time.
Never said it was. And thats a rule that needs to be changed. Ernest
I guess I sorta heard it (or thought it myself) all before... what is it among those things that is a direct result of the decline in popularity?is that better??
Every bit of it.
Which of those things could be solved by anything other than greater popularity?
None of it - that's what it all comes from / depends on.
Seems kinds self-fulfilling the prophecy to let those things keep you from enjoying what is STILL the fastest open wheel oval racing on the face of the earth.
I think it at least holds a candle...
Of course, nothing's better than life when you're still young. But why I would let anything keep me from enjoying the few good open wheel oval races that include the closest thing we have to the fastest racing series cars that ever was...
Well that's just beyond me.
I do think more people would enjoy it if they didn't have to hear how bad it was all the freaking time. There's a lotsa other sucky racing in the world sucks but you don't hear it from me
Last edited by Turn13; 04-21-2012 at 10:16 PM.
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