The trick is to not confuse cam grinding with axe grinding.Originally Posted by Glenn
The trick is to not confuse cam grinding with axe grinding.
"The IRL's future should be good, but it can't be the grass-roots series Tony George envisioned. That was a wet dream." - Bobby Unser
You got me with this one, I'm sitting here laughing my a$$ off. Good one!
Without looking, I'm pretty sure the Cosworth DFX went back to about 1967 in its original configuration. I know Ford had nothing to do with it being brough to Indy racing, that was Parnelli that got the ball rolling. But hey, I don't know my history.
The simple point to all this is, when manufacturers come to play, the independents might eek out a win or two, but those wins will be far enough between them, that there will be no great rush to take on the manufacturers, even if engine leases and badging does not exist.
Please tell me when Ford came to play?
The simple point to all this is, when manufacturers come to play.
It was the 60's the last time Ford had anything to do with developing an IndyCar engine.
Ford never had anything to do with the development of any Cosworth engine. They just paid to put their name on it.
That's the problem with your whole premise. If you look at the history of Manufacturers developing engines in Indy Car, you do have the engines from TRD and HPD, but you also have the original Buick V6(developed by Buick engineers), the Olds Aurora(developed by GM engineers), and the 1960's FORD V8(developed by FORD engineers). Those are the products you get when the manufacturers come to play.
"IRL" ... what IS that anyway?
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Well following that logic, Chevy has always had Ilmor slap Bow Tie's on a motor they did not develop...Ford never had anything to do with the development of any Cosworth engine. They just paid to put their name on it.
Do you NEED a car this fast...? NO, but do you WANT a car this fast?? YES!!! -Tom Hnatiw
Race CARS Not DOGS!!! Adopt or foster a retired greyhound -Me
Will Jay Penske, Dragon Racing, run a Lotus in this year's Indy 500?
100% correct.
Ilmor is 100% responsible for the success of their engines. As is Cosworth. Manufacturer badging had nothing to do with it.
Will any other teams assume "The Lotus Position" ? Sitting cross legged in meditation, waiting for a Honda or Chevy to materialize.
Actually, Ford had a lot to do with it because without their money, and their badge, Cosworth doesn't build an engine capable of taking on the Ilmor. Split hairs if it makes you feel better, but paying the bills, has a lot to do with developing an engine and it matters very little to most race fans if the hired guns building the engines reside in Dearborn or Northhampton.
A ridiculous statement. How many Indy racing or formula one wins does Ilmor have without that badging compared to when Chevy or Mercedes name is on the motor. That fact alone tells me Ilmor is not 100% responsible for the success of their engines.
I think Lotus would definitely agree that the manufacturers's $$$ is an important factor in the process.
Chevy & Ford would also supply a group of engineers at select stages of these engine programs.
Again, you are 100% wrong.
The Cosworth engine was designed before Ford wrote the check to badge it, just like the Ilmor was designed before Chevy paid to badge it.
Two of Cosworth's engineers left and started Ilmor, and designed an engine to beat the 25 year old Cosworth that everyone was running. Cosworth got back on their feet, and designed the all new XB to compete with the Ilmor.
Neither engine had any input from the manufacturers, and the badging money came after the engines were designed.
That's as stupid as saying the Steelers owe their success to their Black and Gold helmets.
The check from Chevy didn't give them one added HP.
It does not look like he is wrong.
In 1966, Colin Chapman (Lotus Cars founder and principal of Team Lotus) persuaded Ford to bankroll Keith Duckworth's design for a new lightweight 3,000 cubic centimetres (183.1 cu in) Formula One engine.[2] Cosworth received the order along with the £100,000 that Ford felt it adequate to spend on such an objective. The contract stipulated that a four-cylinder Ford-based F2 engine would be developed as proof of concept (see the FVA above) and that a pure Cosworth V8 would be built based on this.
From Wiki
Founded as an independent British engine manufacturer in 1983, it started building engines for Indycars with the money of team owner and chassis manufacturer Roger Penske. The Ilmor-Chevrolet 265A debuted at the 1986 Indianapolis 500 with Team Penske driver Al Unser. In 1987, the engine program expanded to all three Team Penske drivers (Rick Mears, Danny Sullivan, and Unser), Patrick Racing, and Newman/Haas Racing. Mario Andretti, driving for Newman/Haas, won the Long Beach Grand Prix, the engine's first IndyCar victory. He also won the pole position for the 1987 Indianapolis 500. A year later, the engine was rebadged as the Chevy Indy V-8, and Rick Mears won the 1988 Indianapolis 500, the engine's first win at Indy. The engine went on to have a stellar record in CART. From 1987 to 1991, the engine won 64 of 78 races.
We're talking Indy Cars, and I already said the Last Indy Car engine Ford designed was in the 60's.
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better but you didn't tell me how many wins Ilmor has with an Ilmor badged engine. How did their motorcyle engine do? Any wins by Ilmor in F1 before Mercedes joined them. I saw the motorcycle engine at a Kart show, it was a work of art but it was not successful. Out of curiousity, why do you think the Chevy was prone to failures in 86, 87 yet became a reliable engine by 88. You really don't think that check for some dyno time, to pay for blow ups and replacement parts and engines might have bought some reliability and hp? I am not taking away the fact that Ilmor and Cosworth have some of the best engine men in the world, or that Ford or Chevy could have been as successful without them, but it still doesn't make your statements correct that the manufacturers had 0% do to with their success.
Get your head out of your past!!!
What about the suppliers' standards & reputation? Lotus has made themselves look like amateurs.
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