Doubtful.Originally Posted by HAWKFAN5724
Doubtful.
Couldn't that be said of any race?
And there is nothing to learn. Are going to sit here and tell me that Arie and Cheever are better drivers then Prost and Schumacher???
Of course I may have your point all wrong - so please take a moment to clarify.
Last edited by Ajax; 04-27-2012 at 11:11 AM.
The rumor was that Newman-Haas offered Lazier to be a sub for Fittapaldi after he shattered his leg in Australia. To the best of my knowledge, no full time gig was offered. Fittipaldi was on the 2nd year of his contract (and Newman loved him). And they Texaco was with Andretti.
'what if' Gary Bettenhausen's car not broke down in 1972 while leading?
'what if' Kevin Coogan hadn't loused up the start of the 1982 race and took out mario and darn neear Aj?
'what if' Danny Ongais not wrecked his Penske during practice in 1987?
"I love Indianapolis. I love the people. I love everything about it....the tradition, the history." - Dan Wheldon
Bettenhausen indeed - continuing that train of thought - if he had listened to Roger, not gotten injured in a sprint car and stayed employed at Penske he could have won a lot and really sped up Penske's ascension to the top of he sport. Along the way he could have completely de-railed all of Rutherford's win with by beating him or keep him from getting the wins that got him the ride he got his 3rd win in... Gary was good... real good....'what if' Gary Bettenhausen's car not broke down in 1972 while leading?
'what if' Kevin Coogan hadn't loused up the start of the 1982 race and took out mario and darn neear Aj?
'what if' Danny Ongais not wrecked his Penske during practice in 1987?
Cogan - naa - wouldn't have matter - at most Mario would have broken down while leadingAlthough AJ had a stout car that was clearly damaged by the incident - I suppose the real loser there might have been AJ....
Ongais - hmm - yeah - he was good at Indy - one of Danny "only" 3 for Al Sr.???
Maybe he didn't show enough in the crap he was driving on the twisties. Paul Tracy started out with a crap ride with Coyne, and Jimmy Vasser and Scott Pruett were in dogs during their first few races, but they must have impressed as they all got better rides. Perhaps the best example of driving crap but getting the best out of their drive was Fernando Alonso. From Minardi to Renault and the World Championship.
Along with having no resume whatsoever, he didn't show much with the cars his first years at Indy either. He crashed in practice in '89, got bumped in '90, and couldn't make it past the first turn in '91 after he saw Gary B. spin.
Those results don't get you better rides.
I've been asking for years and no one has ever answered: What did Buddy Lazier ever do to have deserved a good ride?
The Ayn Rand of Indycar
No one had to badge the Offy.
Prost and Schumacher didn't race on ovals and never raced at the Indianapolis 500. It is difficult to compare them to Indy's greatest champions. I am not really comparing F1 to Indycar here, but I will say I thoroughly have higher regard for F1 champs who did compete on the greatest racing stage and allow themselves to be compared.
I don't need to give all the reasons why Indy is the truest of testing grounds but I can argue that with perhaps less than 5 instances in 100 years has a less than top caliber racing driver won that race. It is very different than any other race in that regard. And no race is prepared for like Indy is. Drivers go there to give it all they have and show what kind of driver they are. It is the greatest stage for racing and the greatest drivers show their best there.
Wow--ever look at Rutherford's early career while you're data mining?
I won't be the one to say Scott Speed is a wanker, but he sure didn't look very good last year at the Speedway. Put him in Castroneves' seat and I'd bet his month would have been a lot different.
Roger Penske had plenty of complimentary things to say about Buddy Lazier in '05 when he finally had a competitive ride at Indy in the post IRL era. Penske actually called him the "darkhorse" to win. DeFerran, while commentating for ABC, described Lazier's lines around IMS as "perfect". And oh yeah--he finished better than Franchitti, Kanaan, Hornish, Junq-whatever, bordelaise, Castroneves, et al that day.
Buddy was a victim of the split as much as any driver on either side of it. He had no ties with any of the factory manufacturers or cartel owners in CART and never would have gotten a chance to show what he was capable of if not for the IRL. CART was never a merit system. It was always about rich kids buying the best rides, either that or having a name like Unser or Andretti.
Speed didn't look very good last year at the Speedway, but his teammates looked worse.
Roger was being diplomaticRoger Penske had plenty of complimentary things to say about Buddy Lazier in '05 when he finally had a competitive ride at Indy in the post IRL era. Penske actually called him the "darkhorse" to win.The only driver I can think of who benefitted from the split more than Lazier was Hornish. But Hornish bought that PDM ride.Buddy was a victim of the split as much as any driver on either side of it. He had no ties with any of the factory manufacturers or cartel owners in CART and never would have gotten a chance to show what he was capable of if not for the IRL. CART was never a merit system. It was always about rich kids buying the best rides, either that or having a name like Unser or Andretti.
The reason Lazier never got a sniff at a top line CART seat was because there were plenty of available drivers around who had a lot more talent. Like Franchitti, Castroneves, Junq-"whatever", Kanaan, Da Matta, Zanardi, Moore, Blundell, etc. And in the 1990's I'd like to know how you think Lazier was more worthy of a top CART ride than Unser and Andretti in their prime. (Beating a bunch of palookas in a few IRL races doesn't quite cut it.)
Could you give some examples of Ganassi, Newman-Haas, Team Green, or Penske selling rides to rich kids?
What's next? He was catching Montoya in 2000?
Not quite. Greg Moore, Paul Tracy, Mark Blundell, JPM, Helio and Tony Kanaan never bought rides. Moore, Helio and Tony were products of the original Indy Lights system and earned their way. You could make a case for Scott Pruett, but he did pay his life savings for a ride which didn't quite amount to $100,000, not enough to make a dent in Andrea de Cesaris' weekly allowance.
Yes, there were ride buyers in CART, just like there was the merit system. And that goes double for the IRL. How else would Dr. Jack get a sniff of a race car?
What if Penske had another promo to bring fans back to Kentucky? That would fill up half of the speedway.
Let's have another split thread. That's original.
Just think if Penske would've had the foresight to put Stewart under contract...
or Jeff Gordon
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security
Well, to be fair to Will, (which I know you won't be)
The crew has let Will down the last two years.
2010, Will was one of only 2 cars that could hang with Dario.
"I think of Indianapolis every day of the year, every
hour of the day, and when I sleep, too. Everything I
ever wanted in my life, I found inside the walls of
the Indianapolis Motor Speedway."
- Eddie Sachs.
Until he proves otherwise, no reason to label him a winning threat IMO. Nobody fears him at Indy or on any oval. Nobody. He has & has had the equipment to do it, but hasnt got it done. No more excuses. Time to get it done. The real greats never needed excuses. And come on, Lotus, you know ive been fair to Mr. Power and have given him his well deserved praise this season.Well, to be fair to Will, (which I know you won't be)
The crew has let Will down the last two years.
2010, Will was one of only 2 cars that could hang with Dario.
My words may not be what you want to hear.....but what you need to hear. TF CHALLENGE: CONVINCE 1 NEW PERSON TO WATCH INDY NEXT SUNDAY
I was never particularily impressed with Buddy, but I ran into a Coyne crew member at a BWWs and talked some racing with him. He rated Buddy as one of Coynes best drivers and at the time I think they were running either Junky or Wilson.
He also spoke about some race where Robby Gordon had to start from the back after missing the drivers meeting. Robby was so hung over, he over slept and missed the meeting.
Great point.
On another point:
Buddy Lazier was a stud on ovals. Three instances for evidence I remember distinctly are:
1. Lazier and Stewart warring at Charlotte in 1997; they were wheel-to-wheel til Stewart got a short lap down because of unscheduled fuel stop (if I recall correctly), and Stewart was driving way over even his head trying to catch back up to Buddy; Stewart finally blew his Butch Meyer-built Aurora in that futile effort - Buddy took the win with Speedway Engine Development's Aurora behind him.
2. Lazier trying everything he possessed to chase down Cheever for the win at the Speedway in 1998; he finished 2nd.
3. A Goodyear tire test at Walt Disney World Speedway in 1998; I took the opportunity for the better part of 2 days stationing myself at various points all away around that devil of a racing track, and the aggressive, pure, natural talent Lazier consistently displayed there all by his lonesome ranks right up there with memories of Mike Mosley Goodyear tire tests at the Speedway.
Did I mention that Buddy Lazier was a stud on ovals?
Schumacher would have let his teammate win.
what if Penske hadn't sold his tracks to ISC..
what if Penske hadn't sold out his share of CART....
What if Penske hadn't jumped to the IRL in 2001...
Penske does what is best for Penske. Lazier apparently wasn't best for Penske.
With regard to Power, somebody please refresh my memory as to where he finished in the AJ Foyt Trophy competition the past 2 years. As much of a non-threat as he is, was he somewhere around 10th or 11th?
2010 was really unfortunate. He indeed had the car to race Dario. If not for the fuel hose getting stuck he might have been in the catbird seat. He ran awfully well for a non-threat.
Lazier turned out to be pretty good. If he'd landed a ride with an organization like Penske when he was younger who knows where his career would have gone. As it is, I think he can be happily retired with an Indy 500 victory, series championship and a handful of other wins.
The mentions of Greg Moore really make me sad. He would have won a lot of races in that Reynard Honda in 2000 and 2001, and he was dynamite on ovals. He would have been so good at Indy.
When you drive for the captain there are expectations. You are expected to win because your cars have the capability. (Which is proven with how many races, ovals specifically the Big two have won in recent years) The guy has run good and gotten better on ovals. Thats a fact. But he's not winning and the guy has had 3-4 years oval experience, im sorry if he's as good as everyone says he is, theres no excuse. None whatsoever, you have to get it done. Im tired of hearing all of the excuses. Throw 75% of the drivers in the paddock into the #12 and they can match his oval performance easily in 3 years. Easily. whats funny about this whole thing is whenever we speak about Bourdais, the guy has multiple oval wins and was instantly good on them and didnt need any adjustment excuse, but he cant oval race according to TF, yet Mr. Power has been driving 3 years for Penske and has one little lucky draw TX win, but he's already labeled a terrific oval racer? Makes so much sense doesnt it.
Bottom line: You got the car & team to do it, you need to get it done. No excuses. Once he proves to me he's a winning threat on ovals and starts winning on them, he will get the praise. By NON-TF standards, Will Power is a terrific driver with big talent. By TF Standards he may be the most overrated driver ive ever seen.
3 years into his oval career he's outdone what Helio and Dario did their first 3 years. Yes I know competition was different. But how many wins did Helio/Briscoe have on ovals last year? You could actually make a case that the Penske car wasn't that good...but Power made it better than it was.
That's why I put a smiley face.
Dial it back buddy.
He ran REALLY well in 2010, like I said, Will and Graham were the only two cars who really could challenge Dario that day.
I agree with whoever said it is time for Will to get it done. He has ran very well at a lot of ovals the past 2 seasons, he has had more than his share of bad luck on ovals (i.e. crew foul ups). But the wins have to be there. 2nds, 3rds, and 4ths are solid but winning is why you race. He isn't a non-threat as some suggest though, that's a complete exaggeration.
Anyway, I know its May because the Buddy Lazier fanboys are out in full effect. Seems like he's a really nice guy...but some of you had too many shrooms or something. There are things I respect about his ability, but it all needs to be in proper perspective.
Despite the fact that in the race Buddy finished higher than either of his drivers and had he not got chopped by both Scott Sharp and Sebastian Bourdias that day could have won?
Roger respected Buddy no doubt about it, just as Roger respects anyone who wins Indy.
Having Jeff Gordon or Tony Stewart in Indycar, even with Penske, wouldn't make THE difference people are expecting. There is no alternate timeline where Gordon/Stewart are as well known from their Indycar success as they are from NASCAR.
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