Honda will be allowed to change turbo

[1978]

#Indycar ruling upheld. Turbo modification coming to Honda for this weekend. -- Curt Cavin (@curtcavin)

[Oldfan]

Guess that June 18 rule doesn't apply to Honda.

Where's the help for Lotus? Apparently Randy doesn't care about leveling the playing field for them.

Indy Car is like a government run soup kitchen that lets the middle/upper class in but doesn't allow the destitutely poor.

[Djski442]

Guess that June 18 rule doesn't apply to Honda.

Where's the help for Lotus? Apparently Randy doesn't care about leveling the playing field for them.

Indy Car is like a government run soup kitchen that lets the middle/upper class in but doesn't allow the destitutely poor.

Has lotus asked for any changes?

[vintage]

If they're dominant at Indy I'm going to be pissed. This is Nascar-like.

[Oldfan]

Has lotus asked for any changes?

I don't know.

Maybe they didn't think to ask since the rule is you have to wait until June 18.

[AlJRFAN]

The turbo is not part of the engine nor was it designed by the engine manufacturers and lotus uses the same turbo as Chevy so they have no case. Chevy agreed to these terms in December of 10 if Borg Warner created one turbo that performed better than the other.

[BizzyV]

From whats been reported, that sounds fair.

The June 18 update apparently applies to the engine itself, the turbos are the domain of the series. Chevy and Lotus run the same turbos.

The help for Lotus isn't coming because they are using the same turbos and getting smoked by Chevy. So clearly the problem is with the Lotus engine and/or the tuning, not the turbos.

[cheeseczar]

I love it when a good plan comes together!

[Djski442]

I don't know.

Maybe they didn't think to ask since the rule is you have to wait until June 18.

Well maybe they should start asking.

[Glenn]

I'd like to know what they changed from and to as far as the single turbo. If they were looking for low end torque out of a slow corner, then they would choose a turbo with a smaller A/R ratio. However, for Indy, they want a turbo that has a higher A/R so that they don't back-pressure the engine at full power. So if they changed to a higher A/R, then I would be pissed if I were Chevy. I'm hoping some insider on this forum knows the details.

EDIT: I did some searching. I did find that it was only a turbine housing change and that they went to a .74 A/R housing. The way it was written it sounds like this is a smaller A/R which should allow the single turbo to spool up more quickly. And now that I think about it, with the very low boost they are running, that should be fine at Indy as they'll be running with the wastegate open to keep the boost down.

EDIT AGAIN: I've read the info at Indycar and at Racer and the really weird thing is it looks wrong to me. Someone does NOT know the difference between a turbine housing and a compressor housing. They stated the compressor had a .74 A/R and it really should read that the turbine housing has a .74 A/R. Very strange. A little birdie told me that the Indycar Tech guys weren't that sharp and I'm starting to see why!

[John R]

I'm no insider and only a wanna-be gearhead but even i know that a turbo is not part of the engine...

oh, and i almost forgot: Dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed, I want heads, this all $7ck$, etc, etc, etc

[irlrules98]

The boost on speedways so limited, the A/R ratio being smaller will not kill the top end power like it would at higher boost levels. Honda will get better boost at lower rpms with the smaller A/R ratio, better driveability, acceleration, response. The different part is the turbo housing...it has a smaller diameter outlet and likely the whole "snail" is smaller. The internals are the same.

[Oldfan]

From whats been reported, that sounds fair.

The June 18 update apparently applies to the engine itself, the turbos are the domain of the series.

Okay, so something happened that the series controlled and was outside the control of the manufacturers, and was deemed to be unfair, so the series stepped in and "leveled the playing field" to fix their mistake.

Using that logic... Indy Car chose the engine manufacturers that are allowed to participate, not the teams. Two of the three are global giants and have the resources to put in a good, competitive effort. The third one is not and is clearly failing at their job (no testing, no reliability, no power... but plenty of headaches for their teams).

The teams didn't nominate Lotus to be a supplier, Indy Car did. So since this was a decision made that was out of the control of the teams who are being damaged by it, then using the "turbo logic" Indy Car should step in and do something to "level the playing field", like they did for Honda's version of the turbo.

[Darth Airbox]

Guess that June 18 rule doesn't apply to Honda.

A turbo is not an engine core, which is what the June 18th rule was for.

[Nigel Red5]

even if Judd is allowed to develop the engine and make changes to the engine specs. , Is Lotus in a position to write the checks necessary to do either? Even cutting back to two teams and three cars, it still doesn't sound like they have the money to improve much.

[Glenn]

OK, I found a good article. I was correct, the press release today that stated a new .74 a/r COMPRESSOR housing was wrong. It should read TURBINE housing. They had a range of 1.04 to 1.45 A/R for the single turbo and they got approval to go down to a 0.74 A/R turbine housing. That's down there with the twin turbo A/R's. Seems like Honda will have their cake and eat it too. Why would they have gone with the single turbo set-up if they knew the allowable A/R's were too high? I don't like this and I hope it screws them at Indy. But I'm betting they are allowed to use a larger A/R at Indy.

Here's an excerpt from the Article:

"To bring you up to speed, an A/R (Area/Radius) ratio is a measurement of airflow through a turbocharger’s exhaust housing. And without getting too technical, a smaller A/R value (such as .74) provides a faster response from the turbocharger, but reduces the power potential on high RPM. On the flip side, a higher A/R (such as 1.45) takes longer to spool up (turbo lag) but has the ability to provide more power where a small A/R value cannot. Now that you’ve got the skinny of it, onto what’s got Chevy spooling up hot air:

The permitted IndyCar A/R sizes for the Borg Warner EFR9180 single turbocharger setup is 1.04 to 1.45, falling into what Honda had originally installed in its engines. However, due to… something… Honda swapped out the old housing for a different Borg Warner-supplied turbo housing with an A/R of .74, which from what we can gather is a size not mentioned in the published IndyCar rules. However, it falls in line with the twin-turbo A/R regulation of .64 to .85. But the Honda engines don’t use twin turbos.

IndyCar engine rules do state that changing between the two permitted turbocharger A/R specifications “may only take place between events,” which is what Honda attempted to do. And the rules also state that “should turbochargers fail to meet the durability targets set by Borg Warner, the manufacturer will take steps to remedy the situation.”

Regardless of whether or not you’re on board with Honda or not, Chevrolet has filed a protest, and IndyCar has agreed to host a hearing Thursday, April 26 in Indianapolis, which is tomorrow (or today, depending on when you read this). At which time, Chevrolet can formally complain in front of a three-person panel consisting of an individual selected by Honda, and individual selected by Chevy, and an individual selected by both Honda and Chevy. IndyCar will also allow Honda to tell their side of the story, which will probably explain why they elected to use the unregulated turbo housing.

The protest sort of seems moot, considering Chevrolet cars have won every race so far. Though when the racing program opted to replace all of their twin-turbocharged V6 engines prior to last weekend’s race at Long Beach, IndyCar was quick to penalize every single car and driver with a bowtie engine as a result. Chevy won the race regardless."

[Oldfan]

even if Judd is allowed to develop the engine and make changes to the engine specs. , Is Lotus in a position to write the checks necessary to do either? Even cutting back to two teams and three cars, it still doesn't sound like they have the money to improve much.

Which is why the series never should've made them one of their three exclusive manufacturers allowed to take part in this sport.

[Oldfan]

A turbo is not an engine core, which is what the June 18th rule was for.

Then if I was Chevy I'd change to a single turbo for Indy, Texas, Fontana etc. and run the twin at road/street courses and Milwaukee.

[AlJRFAN]

OK, I found a good article. I was correct, the press release today that stated a new .74 a/r COMPRESSOR housing was wrong. It should read TURBINE housing. They had a range of 1.04 to 1.45 A/R for the single turbo and they got approval to go down to a 0.74 A/R turbine housing. That's down there with the twin turbo A/R's. Seems like Honda will have their cake and eat it too. Why would they have gone with the single turbo set-up if they knew the allowable A/R's were too high? I don't like this and I hope it screws them at Indy. But I'm betting they are allowed to use a larger A/R at Indy.

Here's an excerpt from the Article:

"To bring you up to speed, an A/R (Area/Radius) ratio is a measurement of airflow through a turbocharger’s exhaust housing. And without getting too technical, a smaller A/R value (such as .74) provides a faster response from the turbocharger, but reduces the power potential on high RPM. On the flip side, a higher A/R (such as 1.45) takes longer to spool up (turbo lag) but has the ability to provide more power where a small A/R value cannot. Now that you’ve got the skinny of it, onto what’s got Chevy spooling up hot air:

The permitted IndyCar A/R sizes for the Borg Warner EFR9180 single turbocharger setup is 1.04 to 1.45, falling into what Honda had originally installed in its engines. However, due to… something… Honda swapped out the old housing for a different Borg Warner-supplied turbo housing with an A/R of .74, which from what we can gather is a size not mentioned in the published IndyCar rules. However, it falls in line with the twin-turbo A/R regulation of .64 to .85. But the Honda engines don’t use twin turbos.

IndyCar engine rules do state that changing between the two permitted turbocharger A/R specifications “may only take place between events,” which is what Honda attempted to do. And the rules also state that “should turbochargers fail to meet the durability targets set by Borg Warner, the manufacturer will take steps to remedy the situation.”

Regardless of whether or not you’re on board with Honda or not, Chevrolet has filed a protest, and IndyCar has agreed to host a hearing Thursday, April 26 in Indianapolis, which is tomorrow (or today, depending on when you read this). At which time, Chevrolet can formally complain in front of a three-person panel consisting of an individual selected by Honda, and individual selected by Chevy, and an individual selected by both Honda and Chevy. IndyCar will also allow Honda to tell their side of the story, which will probably explain why they elected to use the unregulated turbo housing.

The protest sort of seems moot, considering Chevrolet cars have won every race so far. Though when the racing program opted to replace all of their twin-turbocharged V6 engines prior to last weekend’s race at Long Beach, IndyCar was quick to penalize every single car and driver with a bowtie engine as a result. Chevy won the race regardless."

Thanks for the write up. The million dollar question is will they be allowed to go to the bigger housing on the ovals.

[Djski442]

Then if I was Chevy I'd change to a single turbo for Indy, Texas, Fontana etc. and run the twin at road/street courses and Milwaukee.

Now that's interesting. I wonder if the series would low that change?

[Glenn]

Thanks for the write up. The million dollar question is will they be allowed to go to the bigger housing on the ovals.

The way I read it was they are allowed to swap turbine housings between events as long as they stayed within the range. Sounds like they now have a very large range, .74 to 1.45, so I'm guessing they will use a larger A/R for the fast ovals and the small A/R for the twisties.

[Oldfan]

Now that's interesting. I wonder if the series would low that change?

People are saying the turbo is not a part of the engine so it sounds like changes are okay, especially based on today's ruling. Just run what you need to based on the nature of the track.

[Glenn]

Now that's interesting. I wonder if the series would low that change?

It is my understanding that you have to choose the single or twin set-up and stay with it until an allowable update date came about and you could prove you were more than 2.5% down on power. I think that after you get approval you are basically stuck with what you chose.

[Djski442]

It is my understanding that you have to choose the single or twin set-up and stay with it until an allowable update date came about and you could prove you were more than 2.5% down on power. I think that after you get approval you are basically stuck with what you chose.

This whole thing is such a mess.

[slompappy]

Was it ever reported who the three people on the panel were?

[Since83]

It is my understanding that you have to choose the single or twin set-up and stay with it until an allowable update date came about and you could prove you were more than 2.5% down on power. I think that after you get approval you are basically stuck with what you chose.

Yes, I believe that to be correct.

[Glenn]

Was it ever reported who the three people on the panel were?

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-turbo-protest

[eastofeastside]

Is there any chance Honda changes to twin turbo next season? Is that even an option for them?

[slompappy]

Thanks

[indybail]

Who did Indy Car bring in as the tiebreaker?